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| One of Us |
Was tyding up today on national woman's day in South Africa and came across some of my first reloads for my 9.3x 62 some 25 years ago when I started going to zim annually for buff and ele hunting. 286 gr barnes x and 286gr woodleigh solids both doing a very modest 2175fps. This was my first load for first buffalo hunt in zambezi valley with Swainson's who used to have Dande north. With that Barnes x I shot a huge bull on the shoulder at 50 meters or so and he piled up dead shortly thereafter . Found the bullet on his opposite shoulder. I still have the bullet. Next bull going away shot him rear end with woodleigh solid found bullet in front of his chest. He only ran about 20 paces and dropped dead. Then cow shot in middle of chest with woodleigh solid also ran for max 50 paces dead when we got there. Bullet found in back of stomach area. Shot some ele cows with that mild woodleigh solid load too and they all dropped dead and all bullets exited skull shots. Then I subsequently loaded my 9.3 quite a bit faster to 2350 for subsequent hunts but I don't recall the animals dying any quicker. Then I bought a 375 which is of course a bit quicker than the 9.3 but again I don't recall the buff dying any quicker than with that old 9.3 slow velocity load. Makes one think. It reminds me of Kevin Robertson saying that he had once chrongraphed a whole batch of original 416 rigby ammo and it all went 2150fps and not 2360 which is the present velocity punted for the caliber i.e the rigby a fantastic reputation may have been earned at the modest velocity of 2150..... | ||
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I really doubt that it was that much slower... More likely that the old propellant had degraded over time. Not to say that a 400grain bullet at a bit over 2100 is not effective, just that old ammo degrades. | |||
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There is the very valid concept of not running the bullet faster than the speed it was designed for. I can never tell the difference on game between 200fps. | |||
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20+ years ago, Jim Watts (originator of the .450 Watts cartridge) told me when he visited Roy Weatherby in California (late '40s) and Roy and he discussed large bore cartridges. Roy stated, "It's velocity that kills. Nothing but velocity." Of course, Jim disagreed and they discussed Elmer Keith and his philosophy. Great memories. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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I believe velocity can help with killing but we are talking about running bullets closer to 3000 fps than 2000fps, having a bullet that is suitable for that speed and smaller animals. I don't think a 270 or 300 grain 375 bullet at 2800fps is going to kill a Buff or Elephant any quicker/better than one doing 2400fps. However the difference might be noticeable on a Zebra etc. Shot placement being the same in all cases. Say a 80 grain 243 bullet at 2400fps and the same at 3100fps on a wild dog, pig etc and you normally will see the difference. Horses for courses. Just my 2 cents worth. | |||
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I can certainly agree with Weatherby's statements. When my hunters rent my .375H&H, pushing GS Custom 200gr HV bullets at 3200fps, I can distinctly see the affect that velocity have on the Buff. Marius Goosen KMG Hunting Safaris Cell, Whats App, Signal + 27 82 8205387 E-mail: info@huntsafaris.co.za Website: www.huntsafaris.co.za Skype: muis19820603 Check us out on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kmghuntingsafaris Instagram: @kmg_hunting_safaris | |||
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Which powder do you use? Thank you! | |||
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The whole idea of "killing velocity" does not make any sense to me. What kills an animal is the destruction of vital organs. This means reaching those organs from any angle. With bullets like the Barnes X and our own Walterhogs, best penetration is reached at velocities of around 2800 fps. Velocities below that, and higher velocities, seem to degrade the penetration. | |||
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Velocity kills ! more velocity more "killing power" The ballistics lie of the century ! There is no physical law that links velocity to killing power ! Velocity is a mathematical entity denoting the rate of change a body's position when in motion. No more no less ! "Killing power" on the other hand a nebulous undefined , multi factorial entity denoting the capacity of a projectile to induce death. The Induction of the process of death itself a purely biological process free of any mathematical modelling. On the one side a pure mathematical formula and on the other a biologic and physical process that leads to death. Trying to link the two tenuous at best ! If not impossible. This prompted the following editorial on the subject in the Journal of Trauma The Idolatry of Velocity, or Lies, Damn Lies, and Ballistics ! | |||
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Glad to see you here ALF, have not seen you for a while. Wonder how a spear, or an arrow kills?? Not much velocity there at all!! | |||
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Penetration kills. Hypervelocity is actually an impediment in my opinion. It leads to diversions of bullet path and poor bullet performance. A 416 around 2350 is ideal in my opinion. That said, I'm using a 7mm Weatherby for plains game next year. But I'll muddle through. | |||
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I used our 30/404, with 180 grain Sierra Match King bullets. Muzzle velocity was about 3480 fps. Killed everything with it, from impala to eland. Bullets disintegrated completely, non went through, but everything died. Ranges were from 15 yards to almost 500 yards. | |||
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i remember an old PH from some years back. He had a client just shoot a buff with a 378 weatherby. The bullet took the buff in the chest, but it ran quite some distance. His comment at the time was that it was going to fast. That a slower moving bullet stayed in the animal longer, thus doing more damage. interesting thought | |||
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 2800fps seems to be the magic number. Increased velocity really only flattens trajectory and enables the hunter to place his bullet closer to his point of aim...... | |||
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ASk Ross Seyfried, and the folks at Barnes. According to Seyfreid, the effect on buffalo of the 416 Weatherby (with a proper bullet) was significantly more dramatic than the same bullet out of a 416 Rigby at 300 fps less. I can tell you that on deer sized animals, nothing electrifies them like a 257 Weatherby when the center of the shoulder is hit. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Arrow, spear, stone, baseball, ping pong ball, squash ball, bullet, shrapnel........ all have the ability to wound and the wound, if severe enough has the capability overwhelming physiology to the extent that the target dies. The model of interaction with a target is universal and common. All of the above once launched can be described as having common physical qualities which responds to the environment the missile encounters on it's course. Action vs reaction. Velocity, mass, form, construction. Combine some of these qualities in mathematical relationships and we have concepts such a momentum, sectional density etc. This is sadly where many a ballistics argument goes off track. | |||
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read an interesting article years ago by carmichael of out door life. he and a group of others were culling cape buffalo and doing extensive autopsies. he said that the drop at the shot instant kills showed brain hemorage and could only figure that the bullet had struck at the time the heart had a surge of blood going to the brain. | |||
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It's all about proper bullets launched at proper speeds. It is very simple. | |||
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Hunt long enough, and shoot a lot of animals, and all theories get thrown out of the window. As with all theories, every spect must be taken into consideration. And with hunting, we do not seem to ask the animals about their thoughts  | |||
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To be effective for any size game, you have to match the correct bullet construction and weight, to the correct velocity for the creature and ranges expected. If these things are in proper balance for the specie being hunted, then you will have a very effective load for the animal being hunted, provided you shoot accurately. Too little or too much velocity decreases the effectiveness to some degree. BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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Proper placement. Proper bullet. Proper speed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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Debunking Weatherby's mantra of speed kills: Everyone would agree that The 460 Weatherby is one impressive cartridge, lots of paper pedigree ! enough horsepower to stop a train ! yes ? and if speed kills how come if you shoot the elephant in the foot he does not die ? Methinks this speed thing like Darth Vader's death ray lives in a realm of fantasy. | |||
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Just looking at John Taylor's book reminds me why I chose 2175 as that start load many years ago. It's the velocity he gives for the caliber while singing its praises.... Many thanks for all the comments and input. Have a good evening | |||
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With out enough velocity a bullet is useless. Then we have the other end of the scale to much velocity that causes a bullet to fail by not penetrating enough is also bad. Most velocities between the two extremes seem to work. | |||
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2150 fps is what the 9.3x62 was made for ... | |||
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E=1/2MV skuhwared, even in ALF land. Easy enough to demonstrate: You'll need a few "items" to do the experiment. 1) Your wife. 2) Your girlfriend. 3) A loaded mixer truck. 4) Five gallons of gold paint. 5) A lifelike Elephant suit custom tailored for you. Test procedure as follows: 1) Weigh the mixer truck. 2) Paint the mixer truck like your favorite DG bullet. 3) Climb into your elephant suit. 4) Stand in the middle of a dirt road in an elephant pose. 5) Ask your girlfriend to run over you with the mixer truck at a velocity of .1 FPS, calculate impact damage. 6) Ask your wife to run over you with the mixer truck at a velocity of 100 FPS, calculate impact damage. | |||
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Ah Taylor and his formula  Another bit of meaningless ballistics tomfoolery No logical basis in physics and even less in practical wound ballistics. | |||
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Doppel: One piece of advice. Your wife should never find out about your girlfriend. If my wife did, I wouldn't have to even see the truck before it hit me. | |||
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 I have neither, I'm FREEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!! | |||
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Unfortunately, we will likely never get a good study to actually determine the answer to this question. The Strasborg goat trials were a start, and I really doubt in today's PC world we could re do them. What causes death? Medically there are a couple of definitions Lack of brain activity. Lack of biomechanical function. Usually both follow each other pretty quickly, although in medicine with current technology we can alter these to some extent. On one extreme, there was apparently a study quoted by Jeff Cooper a number of years ago talking about how fox/dogs would drop dead to the shot at range with #4 buckshot. This despite the shot not penetrating the skin. I have actually seen this once with a bird, so I do believe it can happen. The other is the well known buffalo that cannot stop, despite being shot to rags. High velocity is known to disrupt tissue at the cellular level. At one point we were recommended to deride tissue within 12" from a high speed injury, but that was defined as 4000 FPS impact speed. I personally believe in hydrostatic shock effects, BUT it requires a sufficient volume of the target being affected by the high velocity impact. If you shot a buffalo with a 3000 FPS 25mm chain gun, you would see this, but I have my doubts that hydrostatic action would have any real effect on a buffalo with any of the usual man portable hunting rifles. Deer, a very different story. Most of the usual deer calibers if they hit in a fluid rich area are capable as a amount of volume. If you hit the heart in systole the valves are open and the shock wave of the blood from the bullet hit goes straight to the brain and you have a dead animal dropping to the shot, and even less excess energy is needed. The opposite extreme is a typical varmint gun. Here you have the high velocity round exchanging enough energy to literally vaporize a majority of the animal. I don't think anyone doubts that hydrostatic shock/velocity do the job here. The question is where do you get this effect and how dependable is it in big game hunting. All of this is on a continuum and where it happens is very dependent on the bullet and its velocity. In my mind, the hydrostatic effect is a pure shock to the system that turns off the CNS. The other way to kill is simple destruction of biomechanical function. This is the more traditional way of looking at big game shooting, and is the only way in general that archery works. Personally, the second way is much more predictable and dependable so it is how I typically hunt game, but I can see the other sides viewpoint and it does have some validity to it, and, frankly when a high velocity kill works, it tends to be more spectacular. | |||
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Several years ago I shot I buffalo at very close range broadside with a 470 Nitro. The buffalo was relaxed and did not know we were there. The shot was a high heart shot. It slung its head back and hit the ground dead, never took a step or even moved. I have always wondered if that shot caused some type of stroke. | |||
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The elephant might survive, but he/she will certainly suffer a lot more damage than if hit with a .30/.30. The only exception is if the bullet cannot stand up to the speed. Back in the olden days people used to push the .220 Swift so fast that the bullets often disintegrated upon contact, leaving deer-sized game with relatively superficial injuries. BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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Its the oldest subject in the gun world, velocity vs. big slow heavy bullets... Moderation is the key..fast light bullets that penetrate just enough not to exit expend all the energy inside the animal, yakity yak!! and it works well on smaller deer size game with a high percentage on DRT, it destroys lots or meat and may limit blood trails that result in an ocassional lost animal.. The opposition likes long heavy bullets that penetrate like the devil, do less internal damage, and give a big exit hole and a good blood trail, don't destroy a lot of meat, kill very well indeed but not quickly and that impresses some until they lose an animal.. Take your pick, there is no rock solid answer.. I personally tend to use cup and core med. wt. bullets on deer size animals and the heavy bullets on DG and large animals.. This question will never be answered to everyone, its the 270 vs. the 30-06 with a different apron on... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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It's not complicated. All else being equal, high velocity bullets kill faster and better than low velocity bullets. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Agree as long as they have controlled expansion (between 1.5 and 2x caliber), stay stabilized and have 90% or more weight retention Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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A very brave statement indeed ! Again I will wager the statement is not true ! You made the statement "all else equal" ie only the velocity is the variable. If that is so the bullet by definition has to be non frangible, non deformable and above all has to be ballistically stable. That negates all bullets but very hard steel spheres. The all else equal provision is a "problem " because we have to account for the physics of collisions. Actio vs Reactio ! There is under our hunting conditions using usual hunting bullets no "all else equal" not unless we hunt with steel pellets So if you now fire this bullet ( steel sphere) at varying velocity into the animal does the statement still hold true? No it does not ! This experiment has actually been done ! Fackler did this and not only did they do it at "normal" velocities they went hyper velocity ie shots fired at targets in a hyperbaric chamber where air pressure has been eliminated to attain hyper velocity impacts. | |||
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What factor from any one of the bullets fired causes the biggest temporary wound channel? Temporary Wound Channel causes trauma. Trauma = Death. I have seen with my own eyes what velocity does to Cape Buffalo. With all Buff being hit in the vital triangle, there's a notable difference between how fast they die between getting hit by a 570gr at 2150fps and getting hit by 200gr at 3200pfs. We talking about 60yds recovery on the one to 10yds recovery on the other, and not just on one occasion. Believe me, speed kills. I just want to reiterate, that I am not speaking about stopping power, but shooting an animal broadside, on the first shot, when the animal is in a relaxed state. Marius Goosen KMG Hunting Safaris Cell, Whats App, Signal + 27 82 8205387 E-mail: info@huntsafaris.co.za Website: www.huntsafaris.co.za Skype: muis19820603 Check us out on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kmghuntingsafaris Instagram: @kmg_hunting_safaris | |||
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Alf will be with us for a looooooong time. | |||
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Please let me know when you have killed as much or more African game as Taylor did and I'll fall at you feet and idolise you for life. Until then you can join all the rest of us wannabes'on this and any other hunting forum on the net today  | |||
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