Recently i read an article by Tony Sanchez Arino in the SENDAS DE CAZA mag,published by the argentine SAUL BRACERAS HAEDO where he stated that express without auto extractors arent adecuated for DG .I remember that John Hunter said the ERIFLES without autoextractors are a piece of steel ,is this rigth Juan

in a close DG scenario , its important to be able to reload fast and to have to manually remove spent shells or tip them out of the gun will slow one down ..i wouldnt go so far as to say an express rifle is useless without ejectors , but certainly would prefer a person to have ejectors.

many people hunting forest elephants dont want ejectors because in that very close quarters , the extra loud click as one breaks the rifle to reload can result in the elephants hearing you and charging...forrest elephants are renouned for their agressive behaviour.

the discussion over ejectors vs extractors has been going for years, each side with valid points. I have doubles both ways, and I don't really have a preferance one way or another. Biggest thing is to get used to which ever type you're going to use.

I too have doubles with extractors and ejectors.

While I always quickly reload after shooting...
When not under duress the ejectors are a pain in the rear, as you have to quickly get your hand in position to catch the brass...

When under duress I can load an ejector gun a little faster.
Just a little as when under duress I quickly pluck out the empty cases and let them drop at my feet, then reload.

When not under duress I put the emptys in my back pocket.

[Under duress means I or others are in imminent danger, or the animal is running off. I have been seen {and filmed} to be chasing after an animal, reloading on the run and if no shot is currently present putting the emptys in my back pocket, I will say that might be a bad habit]

I carry extra rounds on the buttstock so they are very close to the breech, makes for a quick reload.

If I was to buy another double, found one I liked, the fact that it had one or the other would not make any difference to me.

I stongly prefer ejectors. Thet are faster.

The loud, metalic "PING" of an ejected case cuased some orderly running in the Save when, on clearing the empties used to kill a tuskless the noise helped an agressive herd member narrow down our loacation.

JPK

As mentioned before, this has been around the block a few times. Don't you think "ping" is less noisy than "BOOM?"

IMO, if you use the most effecient reloading technique for both types of actions there is no difference in speed of reloads. When reloading either type (assuming your right handed) the right hand pushes the opening lever and left hand pushes down on the barrels this starts extraction on the non-ejector and causes the ejectors to operate on the ejector gun. If you twist the rifle to the right at the same time as you break the action the cases will fall out of the non-ejector gun in approximately the same time as the ejector gun. There is no time lost as you can twist the rifle as you open the action. As you reach for your spare cartridges either with your left (as I do) or right hand the other hand can be returning the rifle to the upright position. If you can do two things at the same time you lose no time.

465H&H

An interesting sidelight. We behave under stress using the habits formed prior to the event.
Case in point. In gunfights involving revolver-armed police and felons, officers found themselves with a handfull of empty cases and hesitating while thinking where to put them. Most departments changed their training to require a quick ejection and reload with brass gathered after training had ended. With automatics, this is passe.
I would think that it would be best (even knowing that brass usually runs a dollar a case or more) to drop the cases on the ground while reloading. Make this a habit.

475Guy,

The "BOOM" echoes and disorients., even a second "BOOM" does the same.

The incredibly loud, in the circumstances, and entirely out of place "PING" doesn't disorient, it only lets them key in on you.

JPK

My friend George, when working with PAchmayar in CAlif. said the two most common failures on the doubles he worked with were ejectors and single triggers so when he went to designing and building his own rifles and shotguns, he left them both off.

_Baxter

An ejector that isn't working is rendered an extractor.

JPK

I have doubles with both extractors, and with ejectors! I load with ejectors a little faster than with extractors, but not enough so you would know without a stopwatch! I find that the amount of recoil and/or the wieght of the rifle henders fast reloading more than the type of extraction.

The two sounds of shot report, and the click/cling of the ejectors, are two intirely different types of sounds. And I don't think the ejector sound is a problem with Buffalo, as the buffalo is usually hit by the shot, and either goes down, or runs away, and the shot is uaually the last one you get before he's out of sight! Even if you do get a third shot on him faceing you, he has already decided to take you out, so the PING is not a factor! His friends are not prone to hang around after the first shot, so they are usually not a worry. The follow-up is usually for only the animal shot. So what I'm saying is, the PING is not usually a problem with Buffalo.

Before I state the following, let me say I have very limited experience hunting Elephant, and that is limited to the back-up for others on their elephant hunts, and My shots on ele are limited to two shots in the heart/lung area of ONE ele bull, that a friend botched a brain shot on. My shots were as he turned to run, but my friend dropped him in a cloud of dust with a brain shot behind the head of the bull as he quartered away. I have seen several ele killed by friends however, and because I can't afford to hunt ele, that will likely be my life's experience on them.

I think where it is very important is when hunting Elephant, in a group, and in tight bush. This is especially true when hunting cows, and worse when hunting tuskless cows. Even with bulls, however, it can become a real henderance to life and limb. With bulls, there is usually at least one Askari that will rush to the downed bull. He is usually not sure what has happened to the old man, but that ping may just let him know there is something in the bush near by. The sound of shots is not too frightening to ele, unless one is hit. This is because in heavy bush, their feeding sounds like rifle shots anyway. When they break limbs out of trees that may be as large as a foot in diameter,the resulting pop sounds just like a rifle shot, and I think they simply consider it as one of the others feeding near by. The "PING" is as forgein in the bush as a opera singer's high notes, and gets the attention of every animal within hearing! IMO, the PING is a danger to the guy hunting Ele in tight bush, and is also a dead give away to his possition, to his Askaris.

There is one other thing the ejector causes in a double rifle that nobody here has mentioned. That is the rifle is harder to open, because of the cocking of the ejector tumbler springs, and there is attendant click there as well.

I can go either way, but prefere extractors in most cases, as I said I have both, and can live either way!

All the above is worth exactly the price you paid for it!

Interesting.

I have not experience with express rifles ,only a bit with clients rifles but i believe Tony has more experience that any of us so John Hunter ,Tony stated that after you shooted the game will run away or charge you so the matter of the ejector noise doesnt count at all .After all what you think about Tony Sanchez Arino experience.Dr.Juan Pablo Pozzi

Only those who haven't used both think there's a difference in speed.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Bull

JPK

I think if you practice the method I describe above you may find that you change your mind on this issue.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Bull

Bull yourself.
--------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
JPK

I think if you practice the method I describe above you may find that you change your mind on this issue.

465H&H

465:

I don't think he can entertain the possible validity of a conflicting view.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400, 456, others,

Sorry for the unintentional and very brief reply, I was at my office and was interupted and didn't intend to not add the rest and didn't realize that I had posted just "Bull" until I got home and checked email then took a look here.

What I intended to write was:

Bull! One of the PH's I hunt with carries a 470 and practices reloading in the off season and uses the method described by 456 H&H and I am faster with my ejectors.

The PH holds two in his left palm, bullets facing the breach. When he has shot his two, he opens the gun as he is rotating it then slides the two in and closes the rifle.

I load from a belt and I'm still faster.

The PH is the only fellow I've run the clock against, but I doubt that any other extractor shooter could be any faster.

Someday we will have to have a shoot off with a bolt rifle guy, an extractor guy and an ejector guy all shooting together against the clock to put these arguements to rest once and for all - at least til the next guy comes along...

400,

I have no problem with entertaining the validity of conflicting views supported by facts. I have trouble entertaining any views supported only by fiction and myth. I find it especially difficult to entertain conflicting views when both plain emperical evidence and history point directly the opposite direction.

A couple of conflicting views I have trouble with:
a) The sun rises in the West.
b) The 450/400 has a much flatter trajectory than the 470, making it easier to shoot long distances.
c) A 400 grain bullet passing close but missing the brain of an elephant has the same effect effect as that of a 500 grain bullet.
d) The Earth is flat.

JPK

Solve the problem by buying a Heym. Then you can switch the ejectors on or off.

The same can be done with any ejector rifle, but you need to keep track of the parts! No quick switches either, of course.

Just remember that a malfunctioning ejector is merely an extractor!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Geronomo:
Solve the problem by buying a Heym. Then you can switch the ejectors on or off.

Geronomo, I had one of the Heyms a few years ago with that switch, and I really liked it! Eventhough, I can go either way, if there are two rifles, one with, and one without ejectors that I'm looking at, my choice will be the one with ejectors. Most times I disconnect the ejectors, but when it comes time to sell, or trade, the ejectors get you a primium on the sale. I think it would be a good idea for all double rifle makers to add the ejector disconnect switch as standard equipment!

Auto ejectors are prone to break and they do make the gun very hard to open by comparison to extractors IMO. I prefer extractors after having used both extensively. The option is there for each of you to decide on your own.

Many folks have only used one of the two options and base their decision on that, and thats a mistake IMO.

As I said, a broken ejector is aan extractor. Or you can disable them as Mac does.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
[Under duress means I or others are in imminent danger, or the animal is running off. I have been seen {and filmed} to be chasing after an animal, reloading on the run and if no shot is currently present putting the emptys in my back pocket, I will say that might be a bad habit]

I found myself trying to catch empties with ejectors because that is what one does on the skeet range. A really bad habit. A holdover from the save-the-brass-for-reloading mind set.

It seems a lot of this reloading stuff is just selective memory. When I watch these videos, reloading fast seems to be more of a myth than fact!

JPK, not tht I have had the experience or known any who have, but imagine your shock and horror when you break your double and find out that your ejectors have become extractors as you try to double -park your 470. not my idea of fun...

BaxterB,

As with all things, it is a risk/reward equation. Is the speed worth the definite, matalic, unnatural, elephant attracting "PING", is a double better than a bolt - two for sure vs. a full magazine... I'll take the two for sure and the faster reload.

BTW, if an ejector fails, it results in one extractor and one ejector so you will have one clear chamber.

JPK