As a follow on to another thread, I am interested in the forum members thoughts on what level of accountability should a booking agent have for the safaris he/she books/sells? What level of due dilgence should they perform on the outfitters/operators they represent? The purpose of the thread is not to bash any individual agent or outfitter. Since we have all factions of the hunting continum posting here (hunters, agents, outfitters, travel specialist, customs brokers, etc.), I look forward to many different perspectives. From a hunters perspective (at least my perspective), it is incumbent upon us to do considerable reseach and due diligence on the those we are considering booking and hunting with (direct correspondence, contacting references, using T. Carr's questions to ask, etc). At the same time, I also feel that it is incumbent on the booking agents to do an even more exhaustive review of the outfitters they are representing as they are the "experts" in planning these hunts and are profiting from said bookings. That being said, I think that we as hunters should require a "tits-up" provision in our safari contracts. Said in a more politically correct manner, a representations and warranties clause in the contract in which the booking agent represents that the hunt he is selling is being conducted legally in the country in which the hunt is taking place. In the event that things go bad, the agent will be held accountable (financially) for any fines, confinscated weapons, legal fees, etc that arise from the event. I anticipate many may start screaming about honor of ones word, too legal, etc. But this is SERIOUS business, and the agents are in the BUSINESS of selling hunts. I look forward to the forums thoughts.

Bwanahile,

I think you bring up a very good point...Its all well and good the Agent saying he booked a particular hunt in good faith ect, but in extreme circumstances it could be the hunter who is being held in some African prison on some charge or other or face being investigated under the Larceny Act when he gets back to the States.

Although I have very little expirience in Africa, after reading these forums I know there is a huge difference in booking a hunt in RSA and Zim for instance...however, I wonder how many first timers who don't visit AR are aware of all the potential pitfalls of booking a hunt in Zim?

As a forum, I will echo what others have said and say we are extremely lucky to have Ganyana posting here and providing the kind of information he does. I have no idea if this ever gets him hot water with his bosses, but I would say he is doing a great service to the Parks Dept and hunting in Zim in general...

Regards,

Pete

quote:

At the same time, I also feel that it is incumbent on the booking agents to do an even more exhaustive review of the outfitters they are representing as they are the "experts" in planning these hunts and are profiting from said bookings.

I agree 100%. Some onus for due diligence must be on the client, but the bulk of it must fall to the agent. Otherwise, what is the point of using an agent? Just to give you tips on travel, firearms, etc???? I think not.

Canuck

I suspect we are opening a real wiggly can of worms here but one worth persuing. Perhaps Adam Clements, Jach Atcheson and Sons as well as others can jump in here and tell us what they see as their responsibility in this regard.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanahile:
As a follow on to another thread, I am interested in the forum members thoughts on what level of accountability should a booking agent have for the safaris he/she books/sells?

The reason for using an agent is to get a top quality hunt for a fair price. Or to find a good last minute deal.

quote:

What level of due dilgence should they perform on the outfitters/operators they represent?

In the other thread there were plenty of red flags which should have caused an agent to verify legality of the hunt. Failure to verify legality was the f/u in my opinion.

quote:

I think that we as hunters should require a "tits-up" provision in our safari contracts.

Good idea. But in the end, unless you are dealing with a reputable outfitter who will stand by his word, the contract is worthless.

I do a lot of commercial contact negotiations as part of my profession.

You have to look at what your arrangement with the agent is for the specific hunt and what you negotiate with the agent to do...

If I call Ray A and say Ray "find me a hunt in Tanzania and I want X, Y, and Z and this kind of experience...and Ray says "here is where you should go." I should then negotiate with Ray what level of responsibility he will take.

If I call up ABC Booking agent and say..."I want to hunt with so and so, I understand your their agent please book the hunt.." That is different.

The problem is most folks don't read the contract with the agent and they don't read the contract with the outfitter. They expect the agent and or outfitter to be responsible for events beyon their reasonable control.

From a practical standpoint the agent has little control over how the hunt is conducted and therefore cannot be responsible for much.

My sense is that most agents actually go well beyond their contractual obligations to try an make things right.

One thing you can bet your a$$ on and that is if the booking agent doesn't take care of business properly he will be out of business very soon indeed...

It's a tough business to get into, and even tougher to stay in...You cannot get any insurance nor can you be bonded, your out there on your own, those of us that have survived over the years have taken some tough licks and had to mortage the old homestead a few times to make right a wrong, and even had to resort to colonel Colts best to right some wrongs...

I am surprised how much so many know about the booking business... Wish I had all that knowledge when I started out and had an outfitter take off with $50,000 in deposits that I had to pay or take bankruptcy, I paid it, then collected it from that SOB...

A booking agent does not ADD his commissions to the Outfitters price, unless he is a johnny come lately and does not know better, and there are many of them out there, at least temporarly.

The other bad deal is the number of booking agents that use the term "booking agent", "hunt consultant", to get free hunts, then never send the poor outfitter a client..This can happen to anyone in the business on a rare ocassion, but there are a lot of scam artist doing this on purpose...

I won't bore you with the rest of the where toos and where fores in this business, but the next time you meet a booking agent, please confirm his legitamacy and pity the poor dumb bastard..

That's the rest of the story..

Thanks for the laugh Ray. I needed it today. I just crossed off booking agent/consultant as my retirement job.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

A booking agent does not ADD his commissions to the Outfitters price...

This has been repeated so many times that people are going to start thinking it is not true!

On retail hunts I agree with you. But on a sale priced hunt, it is my impression that a client can get a rock bottom price directly from the safari co. Another way to put it is that it seems possible to negotiate $100 or $150 per day less daily rate in direct negotiations with the safari co. At least that is my experience, but others may vary.

Who pays the booking agents commission? Would it be the hunter?
Rightfully so I might add. If you use the services of an agent, you should pay.

The Safari Company pays the booking agent..Any rock bottom hunt we have I still get a commission and its paid by the PH and you cannot get him to discount my commission, only I can do that...unless he is a idiot and consumed with greed in which case he is off my list and that will cost him dearly...I still sell the discounted hunts...

However my Safari Companies are all booked up and no need for late discounted hunts, in fact I need more safari companies to book for but its hard to find one that I really want, so I just let it go and hope the client will book for the following year and many do...

Also in many cases I may purchase a number of Buffalo or elephant before the season with a particular PH, then I sell my buffalo and elephant and pay the PH or rather I have done that in the past...With Pierre we are a team, business partners all the way, and we split the pie down the middle sorta...

465 H&H,
Smart move on your part...

Ray,

All I can say is that I have always been quoted better bargains direct than through an agent, and by a pretty good margin. However, at the retail level I agree there is no price difference.

However, it seems an agent can make quite a good living. If the 150 hunts that you book per year average $10K each in daily rates (when lumping in the 21 day hunts with the PG hunts, etc.), that is $1.5 million in hunts per year. A 15% commission yields a gross income of $225,000. Minus website cost, a trip to Dallas, phone bill and a handful of ads. Not bad for a business run out of the home.

Back on topic and away from singing booking agents praises and how tough their profession of choice is ............

***

I think if I booked a safari through an agent where the very basis is illegal the full cost or paid up cost of the safari should be refunded by the agent. Similarly if the service was not delivered for any other reason other than the fault of the client. If partly delivered a part refund is called for. Not just an "agent's commission" which has nothing to do with the client. The commission is the business between the agent and the outfitter, not the client.

Also as the true cost to the client is greater than just a deposit or the whole hunt cost package I would also expect additional compensation. Most honest and reputable agents would offer a discounted hunt to replace it which most clients would refuse for obvious reasons. Other costs might include: lost airfares; paid for travel insurance; wasted holiday leave etc.

As I understand it being an "agent" by law means the agent is acting "on behalf" of the outfitter as his or her representative and therefore by law the agent is also responsible and liable for any failure to deliver. This is at least the situation under British Common Law from which the USA also has many precedents.

Thus the importance of ensuring what the outfitter does or is is extremely important.

Things that are outside the agent's and outfitters control are of course a different matter. As long as they did not know they were to happen when making the bookings. Still an obligation to refund as the service and goods were never delivered.

I think this does correspond with what Ray Atkinson has said he has had to do in the past when things have gone wrong. It is not always possible to ensure everything on the hunt has been to promoted standard. When the agent ffff's up it is his responsibility to fix it as it was their responsibility to ensure the promoted hunt was correct. Not the clients as has been suggested on this thread. I think ALL good booking agents would operate on this basis or should.

As for whom is ultimately responsible for the cost the agent reimburses? Again that is negotiations for the agent and his outfitter whom he represents. Not the client's worry.

BTW as for agents on this board, we have seen two come and go with shonky deals. One of them we hear from every blue moon and then disappears again, usually when I post the reference to his shonky deal. He is a "good ole boy" to some of the agents on here and was also praised even when he attempted to rise from the dead. He still has a link on AR links page too. It would have been very easy to explain what happened and face the music if necessary but he disappeared (edited: last sentence added).

Many agent's have very jargonistic contracts where the central aim is "we are responsible for nothing", and they say "ensure you have insurance if anything goes wrong". I have seen one agreement like that and while I did still book - just becasue I really wanted to go, no other reason - won't be dealing with that agent again.

I do think an agent and an outfitter should have a safari or booking agreement. It should be simple and concise. I was very pleasantly surprised by an agreement recently sent to me by an outfitter. One page, simple paragraphs. To the point and easy to understand and very reasonable. This outfitter also stands by their hunts I am 100% sure. No need for convuluted jargon.

Just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
From a practical standpoint the agent has little control over how the hunt is conducted and therefore cannot be responsible for much.

In your dreams. Why then use an agent????????? Whatever happened to "Agency Law" which I remembered studying in University?

quote:

My sense is that most agents actually go well beyond their contractual obligations to try an make things right.

As they should if they regard their obligation as only being what the previous quotation remarked.

Well many safari companies book direct now, but the booking agent still has a role. I have been to all my operations, stayed, ate, hunted in all of them, so i know what i sell. i also feature packages. as such i'll sell their standard pacakage and recive my comission, but i'll also custom build my own for my asian hunters.

I am first point of contact and if you are a billionare and want to hunt the big 5 all in one sitting, i'll even fly to you to meet and arrange all of it. Sometimes it is simply easier to go through a reliable booking agent whom you know by name and face. not many people form close attachments on a regular basis with professional out of reach in africa.

It is not an easy business and believe you me, it can be very trying indeed. I do it because i love hunting and introducing african hunting to the market and to my friends is very very satisfying.

Some agents get free hunting? wow, I always offer to pay for any animals i take, ...ah if i had the time every hunt. normally i'm to busy running the camp, planning activities, consulting PHs and outfitters and making the ladies their drinks.

hahaah tm.

quote:

I do it because i love hunting and introducing african hunting to the market and to my friends is very very satisfying

Respectfully trapmonkey;
Money has absolutely nothing to do with it? Not, "and because I can make a good living doing this"? No flame implied or intended.

I think Nitrox post is quite fair and covers the subject pretty well. I agree with most of what he said.

On the issue of agent's commission, the majority of outfitters I know and worked with have a fixed price for a safari.

If that safari is sold by an Agent, they cut the commission (say 10% - 15%) from it and give it to the agent.

If a client books direct with the company, they do not have to pay a commission to anyone so they make more money .

If a client, booking direct with a company, negotiates for a discount, the company may decide to offer the equivalent (or a fraction)of what they would have had to pay an Agent for the same booking.

When things go wrong, one has to be reasonable and neutral in determining who's fault it was. There a million reasons that can make a client feel he/she did not get their money's worth. Some are justified and some are not. Hence there are a million scenarios to evaluate, each with their own conclusion. A 1st grade outfitter and Agent will know which ones they are liable for. Similarly a 1st class client will know which ones he/she cannot demand compensation for.

IMO there is no contract that can be drawn up between the interested parties that would cover all potential scenarios.....

I also think it takes several trips with the same outfitter/agent combination to be able to make ones mind up whether or not you can "trust" things will be sorted to ones satisfaction should something go wrong.

Nitro,

You use an agent as an information source...and if someone wants to pump them for info and then go direct they certainly can and every agent I know is aware of that risk.

Back to the other matter...

I will be thrilled to undertsand how Ray A., Keith A., Ann H, or Wendell R. can exert any control over what occurs during the hunt 10000 miles away. The agent misrepresenting something is another matter

never read Agency Law...but I do read the contract.

500 Grs.,
You missed the boat by a good deal, if only your were right...you simply have no clue. but maybe you should give it a try and get rich.

I've paid retail. I have also negotiated reduced rates both through an agent and directly with the outfitter. Basically, I was able to negotiate free Observer Fees in both cases (one was free Observer Fees and one was a combination of reduced Observer Fees and reduced Daily Rates that amounted to free Observer Fees). Both of these reduced rates were on dangerous game safaris. Doesn't seem to be as much room to negotiate on plains game only safaris.

Regards,

Terry

How many of you have ever signed a contract with an outfitter when an agent is involved? Not many. The contract is between the agent and the client. How can the agent not be responsible?

In WA Booking Agents are held in the same category as other agents and commissioned empolyees. They are liable for up to treble damages in the case of misrepresentation, whether it is their fault or not.

If you want to be an agent you better have deep pockets or reliable outfitters. Or both.

If you want to see a one-sided contract, read this Tanzania Game Tracker Safaris

Pay particular attention to "Section 3. For Your Information"

Regards,

Terry

Ray,

Which part did I get wrong? The commission percentage? The number of hunts per year? The average daily rates per hunt?

Mickey1,

The short version is the agent is resposniblr for what he represents...he is not providing the hunt.

An analogy is buying a new car...the dealership is not responisble for the defective new car...the manufacturer is...its not a perfect analogy but its similar. Ford warranties the car no the ford dealership.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
You use an agent as an information source...

Sort of like an advertising agency perhaps. So why does the agent take the deposit or in many cases the whole fee?

quote:

I will be thrilled to undertsand how Ray A., Keith A., Ann H, or Wendell R. can exert any control over what occurs during the hunt 10000 miles away.

Who mentioned the agent controls the outfitter?

The outfitter is the principal. When I did business with my company's agents in foreign countries I always thought a key negotiation point was to tie up what they could and couldn't commit you too. Deliminate their authority. As an agent they act on your behalf and can commit a principal to all sorts of things some of which a principal may not like. Similarly they are responsible and liable as well for what they commit the principal to.

Perhaps that is why many use the term "hunting consultant" and have contracts which claim the booking is actually with the outfitter and the outfitter is responsible for what is to be delivered. One agreement I saw said no one was responsible for anything, even delivering the safari the way it was worded.

The actual nature of a consultant or agent is however determined usually by the facts and nature of business dealings not just by the semantics of an agreement.

The other agents you mention are free to comment, its an open discussion forum.

quote:

The short version is the agent is resposniblr for what he represents...he is not providing the hunt.

If he represents a hunt will be at location "X", with PH "Y", the fees will be "Z", and the camp will be exclusive, and the outfitter does not deliver, then he is liable if that does not happen.

Of course in real life the agent may not be aware what an outfitter will do. It may be outside everyone's control, then the client should have an option of cancelling with a full refund if it is important to the client or accepting a modified arrangement.

The fact the outfitter may be at fault through their own fault or no ones fault doesn't mean the "representations" have not been honoured.

***

All this guff just goes to show why good established people cost more often due to their reputations being soundly established by previous goodwill, and why newcomers need to offer lower prices to compete. Because the perceived risk is higher.

500 grains,

The commission you got about right...but you are way off on numbers of hynts...most single full time agaents probably book closer to a 100 hunts per year in a good year...and average hunts are probably closer to $4000-5000 in cost so you you are talking more like $67,500 in commissions in a good yaer less expenses...and that still may be on the high side.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
the next time you meet a booking agent, pity the poor dumb bastard..

Ray,

What about Dina's zebra skin?

Shouldn't we pity the booking agents family first?

Minkman

Nitro...

If you truly want to read a one sided contract, read the back side of a rental car agreement - you are hosed if you get dust on the car.

On the issue of agents, contracts and such - deal with respectable people, get committments in writing, develop a positive relationship with the agent and the outfitter. I was in the sales business in a past life and am now in the "buying" business. I have yet see "friends cheat friends". If you have a problem, use common sense and work out what you can. Lawyers do nothing but cost you money in the long run.

Last, as my dad always said - a deal too good to be true is usually too good to be true. You get what you pay and there are no free lunches.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
500 grains,

The commission you got about right...but you are way off on numbers of hynts...most single full time agaents probably book closer to a 100 hunts per year in a good year...and average hunts are probably closer to $4000-5000 in cost so you you are talking more like $67,500 in commissions in a good yaer less expenses...and that still may be on the high side.

Mike, the 150+ hunts per year came from another post that Ray made describing his bookings. If most of those hunts are at a daily rate of $150-$250 per day, then I agree it would take a while for the money to build up into a significant dollar amount. But there's not much you can hunt in Tanzania for less than $10K in daily rates.

Agent's Contractual Liability. The agent is liable on contracts unless (s)he has authority and the principal's identity is known to the third party.

1. EXAMPLE 1: Wes authorized Tom Brown to contract with Alice for the purchase of Alice's home. Brown explained to Alice that he was representing a principal and identified Wes. Brown and Alice entered into a contract. Wes refused to consummate the purchase. Brown is not liable because he had authority and represented a disclosed principal.

2. EXAMPLE 2: The facts are the same as in the previous example, but Brown did not identify Wes by name. Brown merely referred to Wes as "my client." Brown may be liable on the contract because he was representing a partially disclosed principal, and Alice did not know the principal's identity.

3. The agent may assume liability on any contract by
a. Making the contract in his/her own name
b. Participating as a comaker of the contract with his/her principal
c. Guaranteeing the principal's performance

4. Implied warranty of authority. An agent, by purporting to represent a principal, implicitly warrants that (s)he has actual authority for his/her conduct (e.g., entering into a contract on behalf of the principal).
a. The agent also warrants that the principal is competent (legally), but not that the principal is able to, or will, perform a contract.
b. Thus, the agent can be liable to a third party for breach of the implied warranty of authority.

5. An agent is also subject to liability to the principal for breach of the underlying principal- agent contract, e.g., for acting beyond the scope of actual authority.
a. The principal-agent contract gives rise to a fiduciary duty. The agent can be liable for breach of this duty.
1) Transactions between agent and principal may be voidable by the principal.
2) A constructive trust for the benefit of the principal may be imposed on property held or acquired by the agent.

http://www.outlawslegal.com/refer/ch29.htm

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Mickey1,

The short version is the agent is resposniblr for what he represents...he is not providing the hunt.

An analogy is buying a new car...the dealership is not responisble for the defective new car...the manufacturer is...its not a perfect analogy but its similar. Ford warranties the car no the ford dealership.

Mike

I am not knowledgable about other States laws but I am familiar with the law in WA regarding Agents booking Travel and Adventure packages. Most of the time the contract is signed with the agent, not the provider. This makes the agent responsible for the product he represents.

It also entitles the buyer for up to treble damages for misrepresentation of the hunt, the top amount for willful and graded down.

I'll give you a short story of two aquaintances of mine.

A bought a hunt from B for a Big 4 hunt in the Valley. 21 days, Harare to Harare. One on one with an observer and they are to be the only ones in Camp. A side trip to the Kafue for Sable with the same outfitter.

B gets there and finds that:

He has to share the camp with 4 South Africans who are either friends of the PH or got kicked off their area by warvets. He never learned which story was true, if either.

They are hunting on Communal lands for the animals and have to compete, not only with his new friends, but with another camp set up by the same safari company and 4 more clients.

They have to be accompanied by a local villager as a Game Scout.

There hasn't been a Lion taken in the area for 6 years and the Elephant are mostly cows and small Bulls. He was promised, in writing, an opportunity to take a 50 plus.

The long and the short is Drinking every night until well past midnight by his camp mates and the PH. B does not drink.

Late starts and constantly running into the other guests. The Buff were spooky and at one point 3 people and their entourages, from the two camps, were stalking the same herd from 3 different directions.

About halfway through the hunt they pick up the Game Scout, who is still drunk in morning, and as he climbs into the vehicle his rifle goes off. It doesn't hit anything but scares the crap out of everyone.

The PH slaps the Game Scout around an takes away his Ammunition.

That evening B and the PH get into it over the hunt and the PH tells him to shut up or he'll shut him up. B tells the PH that he isn't one of those wimpy hunters he usually gets and if he feels froggy to jump. The South Africans pull them apart. B calls A on his Sat phone and let's him have it.

A calls the Safari Co and the next day the manager shows up. B has not hunted as neither he nor the PH are speaking. The manager tries to calm everyone down but refuses to replace the PH, remove the guest form RSA, move B to another camp or to make any type of extension or other arraignment.

B pulls the plug and goes home. He is out around $45,000 and has only shot some bait for Leopard but none came to any of the baits. He stayed around 12-13 days.

B gets home and demands his money back. A says sorry but I only have the commission which I will give you. B says he wants it all, plus damages. A says sorry.

B sues for total amount paid for hunt including airfare, hotels, restaurants, attorney fees and hunt. His attorney show that this has happened before with this outfitter and parades a bunch of witness's, including the men in the other camp. B's Attorney shows that A did know or should have known of problems

A says B is being a jerk and should have adusted to unforeen problems better and his attitude ruined his hunt. A says B, who is an experienced International hunter, knows things can go wrong and should have adjusted. A claims he did not know of problems and as this was only his second booking with this company he is not at fault.

The Court, no jury, gives B everything he asked for plus $5,000.00.

A is on the hook. He sues the Safari Company, in WA. serving them at the SCI Convention in Las Vegas. They ignore the suit and A is awarded all his claims, the money he paid to B and Attorny fees.

The Safari Company says 'Good Luck'. After the next SCI Convention A has their deposits from sold hunts, their booth, their computers and all of their assets siezed by the Clark Co. Sheriff.

The Safari Company quickly wire transfers the money to him from their bank in The Channel Islands.

I don't know what this proves, other than to know your State Laws or use an Agent in Washington.

Mickey

Sounds damned good to me.

And almost everything in your post has been seen on AR at one time or other as separate incidents. Except maybe the poor sod client getting the compensation.

Dan,

I think you are not considering the "mix" of hunts.

Not all hunts are African Safaris...and not all African Safatis are DG safaris...many hunts are US hunts.

It doesn't take a whole of $3500 caribou hunts to drive down the ASP. (Average Sales Price)

Mike,

OK, since we agree on the commission and the number of hunts has been stipulated, I will adopt your ASP:

150 hunts x $5,000 each (average) x 0.15 = $112,500, minus telephone bill, trip to Dallas and magazine ads.

Still not bad for a retirement business run out of the home.

quote:

Still not bad for a retirement business run out of the home.

Really. Almost like being a lawyer, ain't it? Just a few phone calls, the occasional trip and the money just rolls in. Screw a few of your clients and the heartaches begin.

I would recommend if you do not "know" a PH or a "company" seek the advice of a good Booking Agent.
I did not do that because I had a friend who had hunted with HHK Several times and he introduced me to Graham Hingston in person.
I never had a "signed" detailed contract, did not feel I needed it.
For my second safari in 2006, I am hunting with a PH I have met in person, who has been recommended by another friend. I do not have a "signed detailed" contract there either. Do not feel I need it. In both cases I feel their word is good enough.
After my experience with HHK, all I feel is necessary with that company is to discuss the type of Safari I want and for them to tell me what day I will arrive, and what day I will depart. When I get there all I need to know is Which Way to Shoot.

500 grs,
First I was generalizing as I wouldn't begin to discuss my business on the internet or with anyone other than my tax man....

But say out of 150 hunts, probably I should say people sent, 50 would be wives or kids on a small daily rate..then some of those would be hog hunts, bird hunts, deer and antelope that only net me about $50.00 to $200 bucks per hunter or person...then a 7 day plainsgame hunt at $150 per day for 7 days does not pay a lot of money at 15% of the daily rate or even at 10% of the hunt..I send 40 to 50 hunters to Tanzania and a few to Zimbabwe, Many are7 to 10 day buff hunts, say 10 are 21 day safaris. Keep in mind this also depends on the year, the economy etc.

Expenses are more than you percieve...All in all, its like any other business..I make a very decent living and have other income.

I suspect that well known and successful booking agents will probably make anywhere from $40,000. to $100,000 a year, some may do better I wouldn't know, and a few make about $15,000 to $20,000 is my guess....Most make nothing and fall by the wayside in a year or two...

But if anyone can get a plainsgame hunt for $150 per day plus trophy fees by going direct to the outfitter, then you can beat my price, but that would be very hard to do...

I would venture to say, if your honest with me, that I can beat or equal most deals that anyone can else can get going direct to an outfitter..and I am a lot easier to find after the hunt is over, and I have allready checked out the goods for you, you may get ripped in that 3rd world country, it happens and I hear horror stories via telephone and email on a weekly basis...

I am not pumpin the booking business up to make sales, I am just giving you the facts as I see them..I book full every year and could have sold 20 more hunts this year that I had to turn down or carry folks over to 2006, so I have no hidden agenda here...Just figure you guys should have a look at both sides of the coin, then do what blows your skirt up...I am sure it can work both ways.

Ray, good luck with the business. Like any business, I know it takes you a lot of time, effort and dedication. I just couldn't see how it would be possible to sell so many hunts and still not make any money.

What amazes me most is the paltry incomes of some of our finest riflemakers. It is sad that skills of the highest level do not generate more power to earn a living.

Best wishes.