Saeed, I am wondering about the effectiveness of the .375 H&H magnum on elephant or other extra large game. You seem to have a vast amount of knowledge on this bore size but I realize that the .375 bore you shoot is loaded to approximately 100 feet per second faster than the H&H round. Is there much difference in the two as far as the effectiveness on extra large game such as elephant or even rhinoceros that you have witnessed or experienced first hand?

Thanks.
jfm

I honestly doubt that there is any differences on the effectiveness of our own 375/404 and the 375 H&H on any game animal.

The only thing I can think of that ours might be superior is at the longer ranges, as it has less drop.

Of all the PH I have hunted with, they all seem to be very impressed with how the 375/404 with either Barnes X 300 grain bullets or our own 375 Walterhog 300 grain bullets.

Again, I attribute this to bullet performance and bullet placement. Both are the most important factors one should take into consideration in hunting large game animals.

We have tried faster loads, in both the 375/404 and the 375/416 Rigby Improved. Up to 3140 fps muzzle velocity.

But, we found that best penetration was acheived at starting velocities of around 2700 fps.

With either the 300 grain barnes X and our Walterhog 300 grain bullets at this velocity, one can be sure of reaching the vitals in animals like the cape buffalo from any angle. Even the Texas heart shot.

It certainly gives one comfort that one can take any shot on these animals. As on some hunts that is all the opportunity one can get.

With all the PH I have hunted with, we have discussed the effect of what has been written about different calibers having different effect on animals.

Without exception, all of them have basically rubbished what some writers have been saying.

That the larger the caliber, the quicker kill.

quote:

We have tried faster loads, in both the 375/404 and the 375/416 Rigby Improved. Up to 3140 fps muzzle velocity.

But, we found that best penetration was acheived at starting velocities of around 2700 fps.

Saeed
How much wae the penatratin decresed at 3100fps was this penatration on game animals or in the lab.
If you have shoot Buff with a 300gr TSX at 3100fpr did it kill better despite the decreased penatration?

Thanks
DR B

Just a short comment- the only one shot kills on elehant and buffalo this year (hunting with me) was with .375 (H&H) (2 buffalo, 2 elephant) and 9.3x62 (1 elephant). Better shotplacement, I recon

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:

quote:

We have tried faster loads, in both the 375/404 and the 375/416 Rigby Improved. Up to 3140 fps muzzle velocity.

But, we found that best penetration was acheived at starting velocities of around 2700 fps.

Saeed
How much wae the penatratin decresed at 3100fps was this penatration on game animals or in the lab.
If you have shoot Buff with a 300gr TSX at 3100fpr did it kill better despite the decreased penatration?

Thanks
DR B

I did not shoot any buffalo with the 3140 fps loads. Because of the very erratic penetration of it. I was a bti hesitant of trying it on them after I have seen how little penetration it had on a waterbuck.

He was facing away at an angle, and the bullet hit him just ahead of the hip. This penetrated only slightly over a foot.

Another bullet hit him in the rear leg as he was walking away, also an angle. This one did not do any better. We found it just ahead of the hipbone.

We also ran penetration tests here in sand and wood. And the most penetration we got was with bullets travelling at around 2700 fps.

The tests were not done in any sort of schietific way. We just wanted to satisfy our curiousity, and see if what we have seen in the field can be duplicated in the shooting range.

In fact, we did a sort of a "blind" test.

Each bullet was stamped with a number at the base, and loaded to a certain velocity by myself.

Two friends of mine, collected the bullets from the penetration box, and tabled the penetration of each.

Saeed: "With all the PH I have hunted with, we have discussed the effect of what has been written about different calibers having different effect on animals. Without exception, all of them have basically rubbished what some writers have been saying. That the larger the caliber, the quicker kill."


Without exception you say?

From Saeed Administrator
Posted 19 July 2001 17:19
"YD, This one is living in my head so far. It has not materialised yet, but we are working on it. Just the cartridge to have when old mbogo is 10 yards away and coming fast. We named it after our friend and PH, Roy Vincent. To Roy, Bigger Is Better!"

quote:

Originally posted by Nickudu:
Saeed: "With all the PH I have hunted with, we have discussed the effect of what has been written about different calibers having different effect on animals. Without exception, all of them have basically rubbished what some writers have been saying. That the larger the caliber, the quicker kill."


Without exception you say?

From Saeed Administrator
Posted 19 July 2001 17:19
"YD, This one is living in my head so far. It has not materialised yet, but we are working on it. Just the cartridge to have when old mbogo is 10 yards away and coming fast. We named it after our friend and PH, Roy Vincent. To Roy, Bigger Is Better!"

That is what Roy used to believe.

Now he has become a convert.

In fact, he said he would rather see a client turn up at the camp with a plain old 375 H&H which he can shoot well, rather than those who turn up with their 416 and 460 Weatherby that scares the bloody shit out of them.

As you know, most of my hunting has been with Roy, as I have hunted wit him since 1982.

In the old days he used to say "shoot him again! You spined him" as soon as a buffalo drops down at the shot.

Nowadays all he says as soon as one drops down "good, let us get another one"


That mythical 1.008 Vincent Buffalo Thumper cartridge has not materialized yet, when it does we will have full details here on AR.

I just hope someone volunteers to shoot it, I certainly won't!

I'd expect that any "PH" prefers a client toting a rifle which he handles well but it doesn't necessarily follow that it be a medium bore. I would think Roy's above quotes arose over time, while hunting you. So, what's the convert using to backup his "regular" clients these days? Gone now, the .416 & .460 Weatherby? The .450 Vincents? Surely, he now regrets the expense, physical battering and hours wasted on cartridge development, of days gone by. Shame.

Thank you Saeed for offering your experience on this, as I am trying to choose

a caliber for a double rifle to be used by myself as a client hunter/sportsman.

I don't believe that in a .375 caliber 2700 FPS is reachable in a break open

SxS rifle while keeping the pressure level where it should be for that type of rifle.

If it is within the capability of the SxS HOORAY, but if it is not,

then what is the best choice for the client hunter who wants to use

the SxS pattern rifle? Do I accept the flanged round's typical velocity

as used in doubles, 2500 FPS IIRC? Do I step up to rifles like 450/400

caliber using 400 grn bullet at 2150 FPS? Maybe go with the hotter 500/416

at near 2400 FPS? I ask because I am a hopeless sap over the SxS design

and am stricken by stories and legends that go with it. I will NEVER be

a pro hunter. The client is the role that I will forever play.

quote:

So, what's the convert using to backup his "regular" clients these days? Gone now, the .416 & .460 Weatherby? The .450 Vincents? Surely, he now regrets the expense, physical battering and hours wasted on cartridge development, of days gone by. Shame.

You seem grumpy Nick!

I don't want to speak for Saeed, but I can answer your question about what he used to back up Saeed. Roy was packing the 450 Ackley that he built for Alan (which Alan has been using as his backup rifle for a long time...like 15 years or so).

I am probably butting in where I have no business, but....I also think you are taking Saeed's words too literally, or maybe not literally enough.....unless of course I am totally off base myself!

I think after personally witnessing Saeed drop over a hundred buffalo with a 375, Roy has likely loosened up on his opinions of calibres for buff. In other words (and I am assuming here), bigger is not ALWAYS better.

I got to talk to Roy quite a bit at Saeed's camp. Roy clearly still loves his big bores. I was tickled to be able to show him my 470 Mbogo, and if I read the twinkle in his eye correctly, I think he liked it (despite not being a fan of Ruger RSMs....too heavy for working rifles). He liked the 416 Taylor too, and didn't even tease me much about it being a push-feed.

Please correct me if you disagree Saeed, but my impression was that Roy feels that a 375 is a perfectly suitable Cape Buffalo calibre, especially in the hands of a guy that can use it well. He also mentioned to me that he has seen a lot of clients show up with guns bigger than they can handle well....so, with that in mind, bigger is not ALWAYS better.

He still seems partial to the big bores though....so, if all else was perfectly equal, I assumed he'd still prefer a bigger bore in the hands of someone that can use it and is also so inclined. Again, more out of preference than necessity.

I was very impressed with Roy's rifle/cartridge savvy, which has also rubbed off on Alan. They know their stuff and they are very pragmatic.

I never hunted with Roy, but got to spend a lot of time with Alan. Man can he hunt! You can tell he spent his entire childhood in the bush, BB gun in hand, terrorizing birds and whatever else. He literally glides through the bush and has an alertness/awareness that only comes from living that life. Now I am digressing, however....

Again, Saeed please correct me if I am wrong in my assumptions above, and apologies to both Nick and Saeed if I have butted in where I am not wanted.

Best regards,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
That mythical 1.008 Vincent Buffalo Thumper cartridge has not materialized yet, when it does we will have full details here on AR.

I just hope someone volunteers to shoot it, I certainly won't!

I will shoot it. Fly me over their and I will be the guy shooting it in the videos. Being 24 and 250 has some advantages....

Do you have workers compensation? Just wondering?

Whats the recoil energy around 130?

Saeed , i will also voulenteer to shoot the VE (Vincets Express, send me a ticket an ill join you guys on that.......

You know there is probably only one Africanism that is more tired, over used, and worn out than the old "he looked at me like I owed him money" bit. And that is the old "my PH said that a guy who shows up with a .375H&H he shoots well is better than a guy who shows up with a new big rifle."

That infers that there are no foreign hunters who can shoot big rifle well. That we are all scared of the big bores. I beg to differ.

There are plenty of competent foreign big bore shooters out there. In fact I've met very few PH's I would'nt go $5.00 a shot with anytime anywhere with a heavy rifle.

All it takes is a little time and practice. Oh and a steady supply of ammunition never hurt anything either. It's all about confidence and comfort with your chosen rifle. That and field time, off the range.

If you are not willing to do that you should stay at home and shoot whitetails from a blind with your .25-06.

The .375 is just like any other weapon, you must practice with it to achieve proficiency. This can be done with any rifle of any caliber you choose to become proficient with.

The .375 is not some magic wand that will shoot magic bullets with no practice or training.

quote:

That infers that there are no foreign hunters who can shoot big rifle well. That we are all scared of the big bores. I beg to differ.

I don't think that is true at all, surestrike. I think what it infers is that a number of hunters show up with guns that are bigger than they can handle -- not ALL of them or even MOST of them.

A lot of guys that go on guided hunts are not all that experienced. But there are also a lot that are.

Based on my readings here alone, I'd say that it is fairly common for guys going to Africa for their first time to have only bought their first big bore quite recently. I have even witnessed it in Africa myself. For most people, big bores take a fair bit of practice to get accustomed to.

Anyway, my point is that I think you are exaggerating the intent of that statement. I have not seen anyone say that the 375 is a magic calibre and that everyone should use it. But I have seen PHs here have someone take a run at them because they interpreted his comments the same way you are. All they are saying is that a 375 in the hands of someone that can shoot it is better than a 500 Nitro in the hands of someone that flinches when he shoots it.

quote:

There are plenty of competent foreign big bore shooters out there. In fact I've met very few PH's I would'nt go $5.00 a shot with anytime anywhere with a heavy rifle.

All it takes is a little time and practice. Oh and a steady supply of ammunition never hurt anything either. It's all about confidence and comfort with your chosen rifle. That and field time, off the range.

I certainly agree with all that though!

Just my 2c CDN, for as little as thats worth,
Canuck

I have both owned and chronographed a lot of 375 H&Hs and I would say that across the board Saeeds 2700 plus with 300 grain mono metal bullets is perhaps 200 to 300 f/s faster than most 375 H&Hs loaded with mono metal 300 grainers.

Chronys (Chrony brand) frequently read high, depending on light conditions. I frequently see on forums velocities quoted for the 375 that are somewhat high and I would believe that an Oehler would slow them down

John S, who we don't see very often on the forums these days has had quite a lot of experience with the 375 H&H and the 375 Ackley Improved, side by side. That experience had him get one of his D'Arcy Echols rifles chambered in 375 Wby. I think just about everyone would agree that the resale of an Echols type rifle in 375 Wby would be way below the same rifle in 375 H&H....so John obviouly saw some real gains on buffalo with the extra velocity.

On the subject of penetration with 300 Barnes at 3100 on the plains game it would be interesting to hear Saeed's comments when he used Ballistic Tips and Matchkings on plains game at 3400 from his 30/404 Improved.

As a side note, a mate of mine recently had his 5th trip to Africa (all 5 trips have been plains game) and this time there was a 300 Ultra with 180 Barnes TSX and the PH had a 300 Winchester Vanguard and 200 grain Bearclaws...the ones made by Speer. With the 24 inch barrel and the PH's loads then probably 2800 would be about the muzzle velocity. It performed considerably better than the 300 Ultra. Maybe it was the Bearclaws or perhaps the 2800 or so is the best speed.

Mike

In my career I have seen a hella lotta game killed with all knids of rifles and cartridges. To date I have not wanted more then the 375HH with a good bullet, and good placement.

I've seen a whole lot of game wounded with bigger guns when placment is not right. That poor placement is far more common with guns over 375 dia then under 375 diameter too.

For my money there is not a better choice for the average African big game sportsman then the 375HH with a premium bullet. Another observation may be the one Saeed mentioned that he sees a great level of success at 2700fps with the 300 grain bullet.

Most 24" barrled rifles in 375HH can get 2550-2600 with the new available powders on the market, using large rifle primers, not magnum primers. (trial and error is a prudent choice here for each gun).

I have seen some of the most impressive results from the 270 grain bullets shot at 2800-2850 fps as well. Regardless of which weight you use the velocity range from 2500-2800 is a very effective level with a .375 diameter bullet.

For those who want more and can shoot more good for them. However there is absolutly nothing wrong with, or any limiting factor in the 375HH capability. I have said for many years now the 375HH is the greatest level of killing power for your recoil investment.

posted by Canuck:

quote:

Anyway, my point is that I think you are exaggerating the intent of that statement. I have not seen anyone say that the 375 is a magic calibre and that everyone should use it. But I have seen PHs here have someone take a run at them because they interpreted his comments the same way you are. All they are saying is that a 375 in the hands of someone that can shoot it is better than a 500 Nitro in the hands of someone that flinches when he shoots it.

Amen!

I prefer bigger myself, but has never felt that my client is undergunned when he shows up with a .375 H&H or a 9.3. In fact, my loaner dangerous game riofle is a 9.3x64, and you would not believe all the offers I have had for that rifle....

Side note to Mike McGuire:
Mike, I'm having no problem getting 2575 fps with Barnes TSX bullets with R-15 through an Oehler chronograph. This is with the plain vanilla .375 H&H round and a Winchester model 70 stainless synthetic classic with 24 inch barrel. This is why I stated in the original post that Saeed was getting 100 fps more with his .375/.404 loads as he has preferred to ooad them. Maybe I have a fast barrel but I have done nothing special to make it fast. What brand of rifle have you had that you've had such poor performance with the .375 H&H round?

Thanks,

jfm

jfm

Reloader 15 will get you there.

But the powders like 4064 at one end are a bit too quick for the 375 and the 4350s are too slow.

With Re 15 I have had 73 grains at just over 2600 in 26 inch barrel with 300 grain Nosler and 76 grains was 2840 with 270 grain Hornady.

In 24 inch M70 barrels I have used 68 grains of 4064 and did on average 2450 or a bit less with 300 Hornady round nose. 71 grains of 4064 and 270 grain Hornadys on average was 2620 to 2650.

Powder availability is what allows the 375 Wby and 375 Ackley to get a gain over the H&H, and especially with 300 grain bullets, that is quite a lot bigger than the increase in case capacity would suggest.

Howver, if you drop back to bullets like the 260 grainers then the H&H with Re 15 will be nipping right at the heels of the 375 Improveds. With those lighter bullets the Re 15 is spot on for the H&H but a bit fast fior ther 375 Improveds and the 4350s, Re 19s etdc are a bit slow for the 375 Improveds.

As a side note, I seem to remember Saeed having one trip where he haad the 375/404 at about 2650 and I think his current load is around 2750 for 300 grainers.

Mike

Thanks for the update Mike. I always appreciate any knowledge passed along from you guys.
Have a good one!

jfm

jfm,

I just edited my post as I had 2740 for the 270 grain and 76 grains of Re 15. Should have been 2840. Also added 300 grain Nosler for the 73 grain load.

Mike

Mike, the 76 grain RL15 load from my mod 70 is exactly the same at 2800plus, I've seen 2850 from that exact load but nothing higher with the Swift A frame 270's and the Hornadys.

I was shooting 72 grains with RL15 and the 300 Aframe and getting about 2620-2640

I have since dropped the 270 grain load to 75 grains and that velocity sits just over 2800fps and is well under max load. It seemd that the gain from 75 to 76 grains was minimal, so I settled on the 75. I also only shoot with federal large rifle primers, never magnum primers. When I used the magnum primers the velocity variation was too much. Sometimes as much as 50fps in a 3 shot string. With the non-magnums I rarely have more then 4-5fps difference.

JJ,

My experience has been similar with magnum primers and the 375 H&H.

If you were using 300 Barnes X you might have to cut back a bit and go 2600 or less.

But remove Re15 from the agenda and the vast majority of 375 H&Hs will be a fair slower than the loads Saeed is using his 375/404. Of course whether that makes any difference in the field is a separate issue.

Mike

Forgive my ignorance, would any of you be willing to expand on the magnum or large rifle primer issue? Why is there a higher velocity with the non magnum primer, and how will this affect pressure?
Thanks much.

When magnum primers are used on powders that don't need them, pressures can be erratic and your SD(standard deviation) can vary as much as 150 f/s. Good standard primers like the Federal are hot enough that the magnum primer isn't needed. Magnum primers are used for hard to ignite powders or very slow burning powders.