I have read numerous times in the past that there is a very visible difference in impact effect between certain calibers when shooting dangerous game. I have also read numerous times that there is no visual difference in impact effect when shooting dangerous game with different calibers. Saeed has posted before that his guides say they see no difference at all between his .375 and other larger bores when striking dangerous game. Every video I've seen of a DG animal being struck with anything between a .338 magnum of some flavor and a .470 N.E. is very hard to tell what was used caliber wise. In other words, I can not tell the difference at all between calibers used and the dramatic effect the larger bores have. They all seem to get shot, run a ways and then fall down. All CNS shots drop like a rock with any caliber that I've seen but I do not count this at all. I guess I've not seen anything hit with a .50 BMG or larger but perhaps that would show some difference. Perhaps not. Are there really people out there that have seen this dramatic difference in effect or is my vision failing me?

Thanks,

jfm

In respect to elephant head shots that missed the brain, there is a definite difference between the 375, 458, 465, 470 and 458 Lott with 550 grain Woodleighs. As you climb up in caliber and bullet weight the knock down power goes up noticeably. I have seen quicker results as caliber and bullet weight goes up on heart/lung shots on buff but it is somewhat less noticeable.

465H&H

with proper bullet placement there is no significant difference between similar cals.

DEAD is DEAD

obviously, a 22mag vrs a large cal will have different results----you need to go to extremes etc.

where I think most of the differences will show up is less than optimal bullet placement. A poor shot may be more deadly with a large cal than with a smaller caliber----thats the difference most seem to notice.

I have always used a 9,3x62. It works. It does not have any "knock down" on eles. At close range they often fall forward. Similarly with buff. A high shulder shot and they stay there. A heart shot and they run. Nothing like hitting them with a .505 Gibbs where you can see the impact. However, I have managed to avoid bing over run by ele or buff, where as I have friends wh have been tossed by a buff after putting in 4 good chest shots with a .577 NE and killed by an ele with a .425 in their hands...

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
In respect to elephant head shots that missed the brain, there is a definite difference between the 375, 458, 465, 470 and 458 Lott with 550 grain Woodleighs. As you climb up in caliber and bullet weight the knock down power goes up noticeably. I have seen quicker results as caliber and bullet weight goes up on heart/lung shots on buff but it is somewhat less noticeable.

465H&H

May I ask how many elephants you have shot and missed the brain with each of the above calibers to be able to reach such an incredible conslusion?

Saeed1

You have a PM.

465H&H

K.O.V.

The rest is just bull shit.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
K.O.V.

The rest is just bull shit.

Taylor killed his fair share...

He ought to know something...

I am not nearly the "expert" as some on this site. I have killed 4 buffalo. I have seen killed several others with a .458Lott and a .375H&H and a .500 Jeffery.

I've killed them with a .458Lott a .470NE and a .375H&H. I can claim no discernible difference in hit reaction between any of the three calibers on a chest shot buff.

I would hunt anything on the planet with a .375H&H or some other big .375 with good bullets. But I like messing around with other calibers and rifles so I use them too.

One of the most impressive kills I've ever had on a buff was with a .458Lott. He had taken several chest hits and had a run a short distance into some thick grass where he had gone down.

We followed and he stood to face us at about 50 yards or so. I put a 500 grain Woodliegh solid just under his chin. I'll never forget the sight of that bull smashing to the ground head first like he'd had the string cut. But the most impressive part was dust that flew off of his back and hind quarters from the impact.

The impact of that bullet literally shook him from stem to stern. It was impressive.

And with that being said. The quickest no nonsense kill I've ever had on a buff was this year in Zim with my .375H&H. One round behind the shoulder he went about 25 yards and keeled over, grave yard dead.

That is my limited yet honest take on it.

I suspect that a lot of the missed elephant brain shots were due to veering off course of round nose solid bullets. Surely there are not as many bad shots among elephant hunters as we see, over and over again.

When the RNS tumbles near the brain it will dump more energy for brain concussion. Is that why anyone would use a round nose solid these days?

It is still better to put a hole of .375 or larger caliber through the center of an elephant brain, any day. That is a no-brainer "lights out."

Buffalo under one ton is as big as I have shot, water buffalo, bison, and cape buffalo.

.375 H&H, 460 Wby, .416 Rigby, 404 Jeffery, 500 A-Square, are the rifles I have perforated bovines with, with softs and solids, and I saw no such thing as "knock down" proportional to caliber.

A .395 will more than do it all. A 50-cal is overkill and is at the limit of portability/handiness at 10.5 lbs, yet can exceed follow-up-shot recoil manageability (100 "pounds-feet") for the vast majority of hunters.

If you keep worrying about "knock down" you'll go blind.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

If you keep worrying about "knock down" you'll go blind.

Hmmmm.. I though worrying about penetration is what made you blind.

I don't know what "knock down" or "knock out" power is and question whether it makes any sense to use such a term when referring to African big game such as elephant, buffalo or hippo.

A CNS hit with any respectable caliber will knock these animals down. Nothing else can be counted upon to do that.

The historical data on missed brain shots on elephant do not necessarily support the conclusion that bigger is better.

Most of the data I have seen are inconclusive, in that hunters generally didn't bother to autopsy the elephants they shot and therefore did not truly know the precise bullet path in relation to the brain. The most they usually did was put in finishing shots as quickly as possible and then hack out the tusks.

So most of these "near miss" stories are anecdotal at best. The ones that do have some data on shot location and bullet path are so few as to be statistically insignificant.

Where bigger bullets have an advantage is in the bigger non-CNS wound channels they create, all else being equal.

With only two buffalo accounted for (one 375 H&H and one 404 jeffery), I really don't have the background to get into this discussion. Never the less, I must say that I saw a noticable difference between a shoulder shot with the 375 and a shoulder shot with the 404. The 375 caused the buffalo to turn, the 404 staggered it. I know that a sample size of two is statistically invalid, however, next time I hunt buffalo it will be with the 404.
Having said that, I would not hesitate to hunt buffalo, or elephant for that matter, with a 375 H&H.

TerryR

RIP!

I can't say a RN bullet has never gone off course as I have not found all I have shot into elephants and buff. What I can say is I have never seen a RN steel solid tunmble or not go straight in buff and elephant that I have recovered bullets. I have a plastic bag full 0f recovered solids. Tumbling of RN solids may be a myth for all I have seen.

465H&H

I am the end all authority on caliber size and knock down power having been on exactly one safari, having taken one DG animal using one caliber rifle!

Using the standard some here postulate from on this forum.

Yep I am totally full of bull, ( as are the afore mentioned AR postulators,) but I did have a couple of thoughts. I read an older hunting report under the "African Hunting Reports" forum that related missing the brain and not knocking down the non trophy bull elephant in spite of more than one bullet in the Caprivi using some gargantuan 600 something rifle. I won't go back and look it up as I'm just home eating lunch but I thought it was interesting that the great big rifle still didn't knock out the bull even though the brain was missed.

In Alaska I have used a variety of cartridges to take several big bull moose and have not noticed a substantial difference in bull moose reaction. Two years ago I used my .375 H&H to take a nice bull and the effects weren't substantially different than when I took an even larger bull a few years ago with a 30-06. I did use a 7x57 one year on a nice big bull and I'd say that compared to using the .375 it was a little more like archery hunting. I poked holes in him and eventually the blood ran out.

I have no doubt that bigger is better when it comes to taking DG, and no, I certainly am not interested in pursuing elephant, brown bear or buffalo with my -06, but I will be hard pressed to think about using anything other than my .375 next year on buffalo in Zimbabwe or anything larger than my .458 on elephant some time after that.

Take special note that the feller that posted above uses the 9.3x 62. I'm under the impression that he does have some experience and has been at least somewhat successfull.

quote:

Take special note that the feller that posted above uses the 9.3x 62. I'm under the impression that he does have some experience and has been at least somewhat successfull.

What Ganyana left out is that he not stupid enough to go into the jess after elephant with his 9.3x62. Just ask him.

quote:

The historical data on missed brain shots on elephant do not necessarily support the conclusion that bigger is better.

I emphatically disagree with that postulate.

The problem with anecdotes is that that they are typically inaccurately reported. A "brain shot" is typically rather an "attempted brain shot" and who knows what "barely missed the brain" means? They shot in the foot?

Any bull or cow elephant that is hit "near the brain" with a "sufficiently large" caliber cartridge will knock the elephant down, maybe not out, but down. If it doesn't go down the cartridge was "too little" or the brain was missed by "a bunch."

quote:

What Ganyana left out is that he not stupid enough to go into the jess after elephant with his 9.3x62. Just ask him.

Doesn't his shoulder still bother him, as well?

Seems to me someone should read Ganyana's work on how not to hunt lions, and, the fun of rabid lions. Two guys shooting a rabid lion. 458 Lott knocks it down, it gets right back up.
.308 Ganyana was using. He hit the lion fourteen times. He thought a 22lr would have had the same effect.

Did Roy Vincent ever get the BAR in 416 Taylor to work?

Actually, reading Ganyana's work in the Nickudu files is a great place to start deciding about calibers...

Having watched Buzz Charlton's video, read countless books on the subject and more importantly I have been fortunate enough to have spoken personally at length to a number of retired professional elephant hunters whose collective bags run into the thouands, it would appear to my bird like brain that the larger calibres unquestionably give the hunter more margin for error should a direct hit on the brain not be achieved with the first shot. Obviously for numerous reasons this is not an uncommon occurrence.

Everbody who has studied elephant hunting knows that many thousands of them have been killed with 375's. Johnson and Manners both used off the shelf Winchesters and Bell put down serious numbers with both 6mm and 7mm, all were gifted marksmen. However this does not change the fact that the VAST MAJORITY of the great elephant hunters of yesteryear and notable professional hunters of today all opt for the large calibres, guess why?

I'll no doubt cop shit for this analogy (who cares?) but it was once put to me like this. Would you rather be hit on the head by a light weight boxer or Mike Tyson? My reading is that after a Tyson blow it is highly likely one would be rendered useless for longer (probably permantly) than from the smaller fellow.

I think Will got it right with his first post on this thread.

My $0.02.

I have been privileged to hunt seven elephant. Two with a .458 Win Mag and five with a .500 NE. I will state categorically that in my experience the .500 NE has a discernable and dramatic difference in knock down power compared to the .458. The first elephant I shot with the .500 this year, I completely missed the brain. That elephant was knocked stone cold out and never moved from where she fell. A "perfect" brain shot will be a "perfect" brain shot regardless of the caliber, but the bigger calibers do have a noticeable difference in knock down power and impact on marginal shots.

Put me in the camp that believes that Taylor had it right. I base my opinion not on theory but my experience.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Hmmmm.. I though worrying about penetration is what made you blind.

You silly! That is an old wive's tale, just like hairy palms! Penetration is always a good thing!

Overindulgence in "smack down power" or "knock down" or "whomp" can indeed cause blindness by retinal detachment.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
RIP!

I can't say a RN bullet has never gone off course as I have not found all I have shot into elephants and buff. What I can say is I have never seen a RN steel solid tunmble or not go straight in buff and elephant that I have recovered bullets. I have a plastic bag full 0f recovered solids. Tumbling of RN solids may be a myth for all I have seen.

465H&H

You better go shoot some more elephants with roundnose solids and do the autopsies this time!

These two Barnes bullets were recovered from a buffalo I shot in 04. They were both body shots from a .470NE.
If you look at the RNS you can clearly see that it had tumbled inside the buffs body.
Look at the blue coating that has worn off one side and the slight bend in the body of the bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Take special note that the feller that posted above uses the 9.3x 62. I'm under the impression that he does have some experience and has been at least somewhat successfull.

What Ganyana left out is that he not stupid enough to go into the jess after elephant with his 9.3x62. Just ask him.

True- I am a cunning coward around elephants.

I have shot elephant at night, and in “self defence†under poor conditions. I have also picked up the pieces in a dozen or so fatalities. My own conclusions:-
1) nothing beats a well placed shot.
2) In thick bush you may not get the opportunity to fire a “well placed shotâ€.
3) If you cannot place the shot perfectly, you need KE.
4) If the attack occurs at under 4 paces, a .375/9,3 is not enough gun.

I have always owned something bigger than a 9,3 in case I needed to look for a wounded ele in the jesse. I have just never been carrying by "Big Rifle" when a problem has occured.

Just a thought - if there is such a thing like slaping an determined ele with enough amount energy in the face, it will change his mind - where does the following fit?

If you double a double rifle does an amount of bullet area, grains and energy from both projectiles sums up? It can be done - here is a pic of doubling on purpose a 9,3x74R Merkel (set front trigger pulling the rear - it doubles every time) at 10 feet aka 3m - does that mean that ele is going to recieve a sum of 67.9 mm2 bullet area of 570gr. and 7064 foot pounds energy - does it make it a stopper?

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
I have shot elephant at night, and in “self defence†under poor conditions. I have also picked up the pieces in a dozen or so fatalities. My own conclusions:-
1) nothing beats a well placed shot.
2) In thick bush you may not get the opportunity to fire a “well placed shotâ€.
3) If you cannot place the shot perfectly, you need KE.
4) If the attack occurs at under 4 paces, a .375/9,3 is not enough gun.

I have always owned something bigger than a 9,3 in case I needed to look for a wounded ele in the jesse. I have just never been carrying by "Big Rifle" when a problem has occured.

Dear Ganyana,
no one on this forum commands more respect than yourself, particularly as far as I am concerned. However may I respectfully suggest that you extend your attack distance for a large bore to say 10 paces, as not all of us shoot like Karamojo.

Pichon1

You don't need to be a terribly good shot to hit a rugby balled sized target at 5 paces

The trouble with ele in the jesse or wounded buffalo in the same is that you often cannot see you shoot at more than a few paces. Yes there is movement and you can hear bushes breaking but all you have at best is some patches of black or grey to aim at until it is right on top of you. Most of the men killed by ele's that I have scraped up got a shot off, but were simply blazing into the grey with the ele looming over them.

If you have ten yards - you do not need anything bigger than a .375

If you have less than 5 yards you want .505 and up. Since I do not tollerate recoil well (watch Saeeds video of me with the .577!!!) I have always used a light rifle and figured on being extra careful to give me the necessary shooting distance.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
RIP!

I can't say a RN bullet has never gone off course as I have not found all I have shot into elephants and buff. What I can say is I have never seen a RN steel solid tunmble or not go straight in buff and elephant that I have recovered bullets. I have a plastic bag full 0f recovered solids. Tumbling of RN solids may be a myth for all I have seen.

465H&H

You better go shoot some more elephants with roundnose solids and do the autopsies this time!

RIP!

How many elephants have you shot and how many have you necropsied (autopsies are only performed on humans).

465H&H

there are very few times i have seen a buffalo drop with one shot , its usually a result of the shot going too high and getting the spine ... i will say however that on frontal shots placed centrally in the chest with heavy calibres , they have been knocked to their knees , get up and stumble off , i have never seen that with a .375 or similar , and have seen that a number of times with the larger double rifles .

on elephant the frontal brain shot is a whole different discussion ...so much room for error and this caused by how far back in the skull the brain is ...not hard to hit a football at less than ten yards , just hard to know where the football is when its buried in a giant structure ... in close quarters , bigger is better and has definitely more knockdown power , just gives a person a bit more margin for error ...even if the elephant doesnt die , it may be knocked down giving you the chance to put in another shot ...

i have video of a guy shooting into an elephants head with a .577 tyrannosaur,the elephant was 6 paces from us, coming towards us ... the shot misses the brain but the bull is visibly shaken and turns... at which point its dropped with a sidebrain shot ...i doubt if a .375 would have turned him in the same circumstance ..he was a huge bull in matetsi.

quote:

on elephant the frontal brain shot is a whole different discussion

I figured someone would finally bring this up.

BIG elephant!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m23rM2WYl8

What caliber is this double?

.577

Hi
I asked the same question from my beloved nurse she has downed more men than bell downed elephants and she said : oh yes the seize does matter a lot and all other talk is just bul . the best result is achieved with the largest caliber of course the energy does matter too ,but the bullet should not be too long .because it may bend under the penetration and the result maybe eratatical . i respect her expertise.
YES

Some things to consider about bullet tumbling/deformation/going off course.

1. Tumbling usually occurs after the bullet has reached the end of it's penetration. (The gospel according to ALF!)

2. Just because a bullet tumbles it doesn't mean that it doesn't penetrate in a straight line.

3. Just because a bullet does not show deformation or bending, doesn't men that it didn't tumble or veered off course.

4. FN mono-metal solids show as much deformation and bending as RN steel jacketed bullets.

5. The Barnes and A square RN mono-metals are esp. prone to bending and tumbling due to their long length for caliber. I discussed this with Clem Coetzee in the late 80's at Main Camp and he was of the this opinion.)

6. Most of the documented cases of RN solids tumbling/deforming/going of course occurred with the Kynoch ammo. These were not steel reinforced except in the last run.

5. Winchester RN steel jacketed solids and Hornady RN steel jacket solids had exemplary reputations.

6. Awhile back I started a thread and asked hunters to give examples of modern RN steel jacketed solids going off course. Only one person responded yes . In that case he "thought" the bullet went a few inches off course and therefore missed the brain.

Let the comments roll!!!!
465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
BIG elephant!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m23rM2WYl8

What caliber is this double?

That has to be about the greatest ele video ever. It brings tears to my eyes!

That is a HUGE bull !

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Pichon1

You don't need to be a terribly good shot to hit a rugby balled sized target at 5 paces

The trouble with ele in the jesse or wounded buffalo in the same is that you often cannot see you shoot at more than a few paces. Yes there is movement and you can hear bushes breaking but all you have at best is some patches of black or grey to aim at until it is right on top of you. Most of the men killed by ele's that I have scraped up got a shot off, but were simply blazing into the grey with the ele looming over them.

If you have ten yards - you do not need anything bigger than a .375

If you have less than 5 yards you want .505 and up. Since I do not tollerate recoil well (watch Saeeds video of me with the .577!!!) I have always used a light rifle and figured on being extra careful to give me the necessary shooting distance.

Ganyana, you have a PM.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

I emphatically disagree with that postulate.

Postulate? I don't need no stinking postulate!

Will, I just read my post and yours, real fast, one right after the other, and I'm pretty sure you agree with me.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
RIP!

I can't say a RN bullet has never gone off course as I have not found all I have shot into elephants and buff. What I can say is I have never seen a RN steel solid tunmble or not go straight in buff and elephant that I have recovered bullets. I have a plastic bag full 0f recovered solids. Tumbling of RN solids may be a myth for all I have seen.

465H&H

You better go shoot some more elephants with roundnose solids and do the autopsies this time!

RIP!

How many elephants have you shot and how many have you necropsied (autopsies are only performed on humans).

465H&H

465H&H!!!
None!!!!
I just know you have not shot enough elephant to justify your pontification!!!!!
I have never known a round nose solid to perform on any game as well as a Flat Nose Solid!!!!!!!
BTW, "necropsy" is a synonym for autopsy.
Autopsies are not restricted to human cadavers (consider corpses: there is another synonym for you, with a subtle nuance)!!!!!!!
It does not require an MD to know that!!!!!!!! You need to brush up on your English!!!!!!!!!

FN solids of copper or brass are better than any RN solid or FMJ. Get over it.

Regarding the You-Tube video of "Jeff Rann on Elephant":
I would rather see the video: "Jeff Rann on Cindy Garrison: 'She's a screamer.'"