Is there a difference in quality, accuracy, fell? Is it worth about $800 more than a new model 70? Would you take a pre-64 over a Dakota?

If your going to spend more to build a custom M70 and don't care for stainless buy a custom mauser.

If your a stainless guy then buy a new M70 and go that route.

You can buy a big current production non-german mag mauser action for what a new M70 cost.

Screw Dakota!

I am about to have a .375 built using a 1953 vintage pre-64 Model 70 action that was originally set up for the .300 H&H.

The action is in excellent shape, the bolt slides very smoothly in the rails and it feeds .375s very well. It is better in quality--fit, finish and function--than any recent Model 70 classic action I have examined.

It was also less than half the price of a Dakota.

I would take a pre 64 over the newer model 70 but not for $800 difference. Probably $150-200 difference but that's about all. For more money than that you can really bring the new M70 (classic) up to snuff and some are OK with little adjusting. I would replace the stock on a pre 64 and that's probably all I'd have to do. New rifles these days are a lot like buying a pig in a poke and you really don't know what you've got until you've run some rounds through the rifle and especially the feeding. I have handled Dakotas many times and shot some on the range but never owned one. If I were to buy one I'd go with the synthetic stock since pretty stocks make me nervous and I just don't carry them into the field.I don't think you can go too far wrong sticking with reasonable guide lines.

The pre-64 in .375 H&H is the best rifle, and the best buy for the money, plus they retain their value. Most of them shoot extremely well and feed perfectly, in part because the magazine box geometry is exactly right for the .375 H&H cartridge, which is also true for the pre-64 in .300 H&H. The old Model 70s were quality-built rifles, and I've owned a bunch of them.

I like the current Model 70 action for a metalurgical, heat-treating, and gas-handling standpoint, but they need to be reworked if you want a true best-quality action. My own .375 H&H is built on a Model 70 Classic action that left the factory some seven years ago. Originally it was a .270 Win., and D'Arcy Echols rebuilt it extensively for 100% function.

AD

Thanks, any more commments from some of you M70 guys?

Allways a pre 64, if you no other reason than it will hold the value of the rifle much better...I also prefer a Mauser 98...but I do like the pre 64s.

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
The pre-64 in .375 H&H is the best rifle, and the best buy for the money, plus they retain their value. Most of them shoot extremely well and feed perfectly, in part because the magazine box geometry is exactly right for the .375 H&H cartridge, which is also true for the pre-64 in .300 H&H. The old Model 70s were quality-built rifles, and I've owned a bunch of them.
AD

I love both my pre-64 300 and 375 HHs. I am amazed how well they feed and accuracy is right in there. They're both shooters and have the wear marks to prove it. But I'm sure that I could sell them for enought to cover what paid for them and what Mark Penrod has put into them (trigger, scope mounting, general going over). But why...

I can't comment on the newer ones as I've never shot one.

-Steve

btt

I have the pre 64s in both .375 & .300 H & H - 1951, Super Grade models.

I'd recommend getting the pre 64 for the same reason as others on this thread - they hold their value and you can bet they'll be great shooters. These (pre 64) were hand made guns, essentially "custom" production guns - they just have better fit and finish and a better feel.

By the time you spend the $$ to get one of the newer guns up to snuff - that 800.00 will be close to gone and you can't get that back when you go to sell the rifle - I learned the hard way.

Go pre 64 and go shooting!

JW

I do not have m70's but if I where to get them I would opt for the newer one and have any bugs ironed out, probably more to do with the fact that it is said that it handles a ruptured case better........................you may never ever need it but it's there if you ever do, I don't know enough about the m70's to understand if my opinion is flawed or not.

I own three pre 64 rifles and one is in .375. It was worth the extra money and it will always be worth the extra money. Check Dave Riffle rifle sales for current price and availability on pre 64 winchesters.

quote:

Originally posted by gunny:
Check Dave Riffle rifle sales for current price and availability on pre 64 winchesters.

Caveat Emptor

Just kicking this around part of the extra cost of the old M70 is the collectors aspect or the finite supply. If you don't mind paying this extra price then ok but it does not add utility.

The pre 64 M70 in 375 holds four shots in the mag. and my Classic 300 WM holds three. So the newer M70 must hold one less.

I have a pre 64 M 70 in 375 and it's a fine accurate rifle but the barrel is kind of heavy. I prefer the barrel size on the Classic M70 375's to the old ones.

Why did Finn Aaguard cut the barrel on his old .375 Winchester and how did he feel about it afterwards? I know he commented on it but I don't recall his conclusion.

I wouldn't own a new straight factory M70 classic for anything, not one that wasn't reworked by a gunsmith to 100%. While there is truth to the Pre-64 being worth more and having better machining, I would never agree that it's a better action. I do agree that the Pre-64 has a lot of stigma, and pedigree, that won't keep the buffalo off you.

See if you can find a used mauser sporter 375 length action and have it built into what you want. Or go through Granite Arms, and have them build you a new one.

The new model 70's have better metallurgy and better gas handling than the pre-64's, so the new ones are safer in the event that something goes wrong. But they are a bit rough as they come from Winchester, and the sights are crap.

My pre 64 .375 has a 25 inch straight taper barrel. Yes its heavy but it shoots like a dream and it has the look of a true safari rifle.

Gunny,

What year rifle is it and is it all original? Sounds like a sweeeeet rifle.

My Pre-64 super grade in cal. .375 H&H from 1949
Every household should have one.




Cheers,

André

I had an interesting experience with a new M70 in 375 on Thursday. When I cycled the bolt forward on the 3rd shot it went off. Luckily the round still hit the backstop. I worked the bolt a few more times with the magazine empty and every third or fourth time the hammer would drop when the bolt closed. My gunsmith told me that it's a bad sear. If you ask me, that's a pretty serious malfunction. I get the feeling that the quality of the newer guns isn't on par with the older ones.

Pete

Pre war 70, My 70 was built in 1952, and its all original except I removed and saved the barrel forearm screw. I do have a prewar ser # 23,xxx that has been made into a 416 remington. I bought the gun after modification because the price was right and it groups like a varmit rifle. I dont like the fact that it has a brake on it but its a slimline and the gun is all electrolosis nickel so it has no collector value. The stock is brown precision. I do have a supergrade 270 made in 1954 that is almost as sweet as the forementioned 375.

quote:

Originally posted by JefferyDenmark:
My Pre-64 super grade in cal. .375 H&H from 1949
Every household should have one.




Cheers,

André

Andre,

I really love your Pre-64 M70 375H&H, you did a great job refinishing the stock. However, in the US, it is a criminal offense to put a scope with a 50mm objective lens on a classic 375H&H such as yours

Tim

Reworked, rebuilt, etc., ets., etc., ad infinitum. Exactly what is "wrong" with the current production Winchester model 70's?

Sounds to me like many of you have fallen into the gun show huckster trap. "It's worth more because I can sling a bigger line of crap than the next guy".

The new ones shoot just as well or better than the old ones, are made of better materials and with few exceptions, don't need any modifications before taking them into the field. Some people can't leave well enough alone and take a new rifle to their friendly, neighborhood gunsmith and pay him to "improve" a perfectly good rifle.

In my humble opinion, anyone who has a new gun worked on before ever firing it has more money than sense. How could you possibly know it needs to be "fixed" if you haven't even taken the time to cycle the bolt, check the action screws and then sit down at the bench and fire a few rounds. I really wish I had that kind of money to burn so that I too can "fix what ain't even broke yet".

Have fun with this one you true believers.....

DC300

quote:

Originally posted by DC300:

The new ones shoot just as well or better than the old ones, are made of better materials and with few exceptions, don't need any modifications before taking them into the field. Some people can't leave well enough alone and take a new rifle to their friendly, neighborhood gunsmith and pay him to "improve" a perfectly good rifle.

In my humble opinion, anyone who has a new gun worked on before ever firing it has more money than sense. How could you possibly know it needs to be "fixed" if you haven't even taken the time to cycle the bolt, check the action screws and then sit down at the bench and fire a few rounds. I really wish I had that kind of money to burn so that I too can "fix what ain't even broke yet".

Have fun with this one you true believers.....

DC300

DC300

I had a new model 70 Safari Express in 458 Win Mag that I took with me on my first buffalo hunt.

When I bought it, I cleaned it, mounted my 1.5-5x scope and went to the range to get some practice with it. On my first trip to the range, the white dot in the front sight flew out and the front sight became extremely loose. On the second trip to the range, the rear sight came loose and the one of the crossbolts started moving backwards and began to split the stock.

I was able to fix everything before my trip and luckily it was all covered by the warranty. However, that rifle was far from being able to take it out of the box and into the field chasing buffalo and dodging elephants.

For any new rifle of 375H&H or greater, I would suggest taking it directly to a gunsmith (if you can't do it yourself) and having the trigger adjusted, glass bedded, and the iron sights screws locktited (for rifles with sights that are screwed on the barrel, i.e. new Winchesters). If not, you could have your iron sights fly off or stock split just when you need it most.

Tim

Andre', that's a beautiful rifle and your picture layout is fantastic!

DC300, you ever had a Pre-64 Model 70 in your hands? You can say all you want about it being gun show "huckster" hype, but there's something almost magical about the way a Pre-64 functions and feels. As previously stated, these were basically custom built production rifles, not the assembly line product of today.

I don't have a .375 H&H, but I have a '56 vintage .270 Winchester and a '57 vintage .300 H&H and I wouldn't dream of selling or trading either one. I actually had a guy offer me any two new rifles off his rack in trade for my .300 H&H and I didn't even bat an eye.

Shumba

I know what you mean.

I also have a 1,5-5x20
I just needed that set up for a hunt in the Scotish highland last year.
I shot 235 grn Woodleigh PP at 2950 fps. and with the 4,5-14x50 it is no problem to shoot 300 meters with that rifle.
I also have the original Griffin and Howe side mount and the 4X all-weather scope.


Cheers,

André

You have good taste in whiskey, André.

WPN

Thanks







Cheers,

André

Awsome looking rifle JD !!

André,

You have the best configured of all of the pre-64 Model 70 Super Grades that Winchester ever offered, IMO.

I love the oval cheekpiece, the standard comb configuration (I hated the monte carlo style--it looked clunky), the steel grip cap, the checkering and, I assume, an ebony fore end tip. Plus, the walnut stock on your rifle is beautifully grained.

The one I have planned will be configured very much like yours.

Mr Lexma

Thaks for the kind words
The tip is Ebony.
The stock configuration is perfect with the small scope.
I like the checkering around the pistol grip very much. Winchester did a fine job on this rifle.

Cheers,

André

quote:

Originally posted by JefferyDenmark:
My Pre-64 super grade in cal. .375 H&H from 1949
Every household should have one.

Cheers,

André

This is a great picture. Beautiful rifle. Seriously.

Also, that knife carry method is quite unique. Stab the point into the comb. Always ready, knife or gun. Not seriously.

There is something special about them. But all I go by is the 1952 .30-06 that I turned into a .35 Whelen, and the 1958 .300 H&H that I turned into a .375 H&H.

What? Me worry about collector value?

Nice collection of Whisky!
We need to visit each other! I stand you to a dram or two of my collection. I'd offer you some Inchmurrin 28 year old, however being of sound mind I drank it all! Now I can't find it in the states!

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Is there a difference in quality, accuracy, fell? Is it worth about $800 more than a new model 70? Would you take a pre-64 over a Dakota?

I value the Pre-64 Winchester M70 H&H-length action as a slick feeder of H&H cases, as a donor for a custom rifle.

The slick feeder deserves the best of ammo to make once-fired brass with. Use new brass only and no crazy loads, and fear not the Springfield-style-breech gas handling.

Then transfer the fired brass to the stronger and better gas handling Classic M-70.

Stick to the Classic action with a RUM box for .404 Jeffery based cartridges. It does fine there.

What's a Dakota?

I haven't owned a new M70 but they look and feel nice, though different from the old ones. I currently have two pre-64s, a 1959 30-06 bought for me by my grandfather, and a 375 originally owned by Abby Burns. Both feed, point and operate flawlessly:

I know that this is an African Forum but, for me, the souless stainless Classic M70 w/ a pac-nor barrell and McMillan stock would get the nod.

I have built several rifles in that exact configuration including the 358 Norma that I used in Alaska last week.

I couldn't imagine subjecting a beautiful wood stocked Pre-64 to the Coastal SE Alaska elements.

Some guns are meant to be kept in the safe and others are tools of the field.

Many of firearms that I see are like hammers made of gold. Sure it is a beautiful hammer but are you afraid to use the tool?

SA

Spyro,
You ain't speaking Greek to me. Well said. Thor's Hammer is not made of gold, nor of unobtainium. One could blacken the stainless and brown the synthetic, and go slay giants unobtrusively.

Every pre 64 .375 needs two scopes. One large objective for shooting leopards near dark and a 1.5 X 5 for nyati.