Will this ruin the hunting industry in Zimbabwe? Appears on the surface yes. The government ruined agriculture, looks like hunting is next.

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No other name for it but theft by those too useless to generate their own wealth and only obtain wealth by stealing it from those who by the sweat of their brow, brains and endeavours, create wealth.

What a shiitehole. I wanted to spend my meager dollers there sometime but I guess I'll have to pick a less corrupt country. But I will donate for a regime change

Remember guys, as bad as it is, this is a localized grab that does not effect many of the countries other top game areas.

Dave is correct. Regardless, it is a sad day for Zim hunting. The entire Save was not just a hunting area. It was an area where extensive wildlife research was done. Blood was drawn for research from every single animal I ever shot there. The animals were all aged. I have personally been witness to the research being done by professional wildlife biologists on wild dogs and leopards.

The anti poaching being done was extensive. The stack of snares pulled out of the bush at Sango is impressive. Lots of game scouts, well trained, are all over the bush attempting to stop the poaching, particularly on rhino.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Remember guys, as bad as it is, this is a localized grab that does not effect many of the countries other top game areas.

But Dave,.....why would they stop at the Save???

Seems to me that if anyone builds anything of value in Zimbabwe, it is just a matter of time before the crooks find it and take it.

Currently, I'm looking for an Elephant hunt in 2014. I'm talking to operators in Zimbabwe, Botswana and Namibia. I know Zim has incredible operators. However to be completely honest, I'm now questioning the wisdom of putting down deposit money for any hunt in Zimbabwe. A lot can change (for the worse) in 2 years.

It is a damn shame!!!

I have not followed this entire item. Why just the Save? Very sad. I wanted to hunt there once in my life.

I wonder how long until the ZANU PF crooks do the same to the Bubye?

I was thinking about an elephant hunt in Zimbabwe as well. And you're right, if the Save, why not other parts of Zim?

Zim operators will tell us there is nothing to worry about, but I agree. Why bet a deposit on the Mugabe Kleptocracy?

And the cost of elephants will just go higher in other countries as Mugabe's cronies sell off the elephants in unsustainable numbers or just sell them to poachers.

Dave Fulson: Not yet, but it will find its way to the Valley eventually. Just a matter of time. Greed and corruption rule in Zim, in spite of the best of intentions, belief and hope.

Dave Fulson, I know you have hunts to sell, but saying as bad as it is there are still areas to hunt in Zimbabwe, just seems wrong.

I wonder how Chishakwe ranch faired.

Feel what you want & do what you want.
But come next July unless lawlessness effects our saftey, we will be going to Zimbabwe!
This is Africa where change seems to be the only constant.
At some point I may have to throw in the towel, but that time has not yet come, until then "we're making a plan."

quote:

Dave Fulson, I know you have hunts to sell, but saying as bad as it is there are still areas to hunt in Zimbabwe, just seems wrong.

There are still areas to hunt in Zim - and great areas, I've hunted with Chifuti (Dave Fulson's company) and others in the Valley and it is great. I can't prognosticate the future, but for now I wouldn't beg off going to Zim simply because of what's happening in the Save. Let's hope something gives and these bastards realize they're only killing the only goose laying eggs right now in that beautiful country of corrupt and misguided leadership!

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
Dave Fulson, I know you have hunts to sell, but saying as bad as it is there are still areas to hunt in Zimbabwe, just seems wrong.

Seems like we have two options, we throw up our hands on the whole country or we continue to support those, as Dave points out, that are working hard to hold things together despite the odds being stacked against them. For me, I choose the latter. There are still good areas to hunt and good people to hunt with that deserve our support. What is happening in the Save is a tragedy and a travesty, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

It would be good if we could start tracking areas affected and avoid them.

Everyone knows there are other areas to hunt. It sounds like, yah this area is gone but come hunt mine. That's what I meant MJ.

Mike raises a good point. If you boycott Zimbabwe entirely, you throw the only ones who can effectuate change to the wolves.

It's not a happy situation, and I've avoided Zim to date, but this has me thinking I should book a hunt there, rather than just capitulate. Really did not intend that to sound like an Jesse Jackson rap slogan.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Remember guys, as bad as it is, this is a localized grab that does not effect many of the countries other top game areas.

not today perhaps but i wouldn't bet against it happening elsewhere in the near future. after all, this is Zimbabwe, where the rule of law went MIA 10 years ago with war vet farm takeovers.

I leave in 50 days
and WAS going to the save
Made a new plan and
havn't missed a step

It is a real catch 22 situation in Zim.
On one hand you know that your tourist dollars are going to protect the wildlife. You also know that those same dollars are being used to fund a corrupt government.
When do you reach the stage where you abandon that which you care for to serve the greater good?

Tough question to ask, even tougher decision to make if you are in the position to make it?

This is what's going to happen in the SAVE and in RSA - They will take the productivity areas...no Ranch / Farm that isn't in production will be taken, wait and see...

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
It is a real catch 22 situation in Zim.
On one hand you know that your tourist dollars are going to protect the wildlife. You also know that those same dollars are being used to fund a corrupt government.
When do you reach the stage where you abandon that which you care for to serve the greater good?

Tough question to ask, even tougher decision to make if you are in the position to make it?

I have hunted Zimbabwe for many years, always with the same people.

They lost their concession, and started hunting in Tanzania.

I am hunting with them in Tanzania.

If they were still operating in Zimbabwe, regardless of how much money goes into Mugabe and his undesirable lot pockets, I would still be hunting there.

I think helping the very brave people in Zimbabwe in the hunting idustry far outways any other reason not to go there.

Equally important for our American members is to ensure they don't hunt with a company that has a shareholder on the banned list or on seized land because of the Lacey Act implications.

As far as the point Patrick raises: It's already happening. The sugar plantations on the Moz border have already been taken & what was fertile & productive land that provided immense wealth & employment has now become not much more than desert.

Water pumps, pipes & fences have all been torn up & sold for scrap, houses, workshops & storage buildings all torn down & sold or burned & all the jobs lost.

If or rather when, that nut job Malema gets into power, things will very quickly get a whole lot worse.

The problem with Africa is it's wasted on the Africans.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

If or rather when, that nut job Malema gets into power, things will very quickly get a whole lot worse.

The problem with Africa is it's wasted on the Africans.

Oh so scary true!!

376 steyr
We have been moving clients to other areas since the begining of the season, we finally had to do 1 hunt on Chishakwe have been unable to hunt since .We have notified all our other clients who have had the opption of refunds or changing areas ,everyone has decided to move to other areas.
The landowners have oppted not to deal with new shareholders.

quote:

The landowners have oppted not to deal with new shareholders.

Bravo! The only problem with that is the munts will make them not the "landowners" any more.

You cannot deal with the devil- better to walk away with your reputation and charicter intact than sucumb and end up essentially black listed like drummond for 'working with' someone on the sanctions list and being taken (correctly) as a thief by your collegues.

It takes years to build a good reputation...and a signature on a pice of paper with a new 'shareholder' to ruin it.

The other scam that has arrived today is that the new 'owner' demands payment for past hunts if I will not go into 'partnership'. two chances of either occuring - and Zero is the better of the two

If the indigeni want to take their countries back to a pre-Colonial state of development, so be it; they are the owners. There is practically nothing that can be done to stop what was inevitable when the colonists handed over political power.

Western aid always had strings attached which kept the locals somewhat in line and ensured that the descent was so gradual that a lot of the world did not notice. The Chinese (and one Gulf State that I know of) have offered the same, or more, cash with no political or human rights demands which has facilitated an increase in lawlessness. There is nothing I am aware of in the short term that is likely to improve the situation in sub - Saharan Africa. By the time foreigners have to go in and take over again to secure natural resources there will be no game. So get out there while it is still worth going.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
The problem with Africa is it's wasted on the Africans.

If you keep pumping money into zimbabwe through hunting won't the scumbags want to steal more and more? I don't believe they will stop till there is nothing left but a barren wasteland

quote:

Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:
If the indigeni want to take their countries back to a pre-Colonial state of development, so be it; they are the owners. There is practically nothing that can be done to stop what was inevitable when the colonists handed over political power.

Western aid always had strings attached which kept the locals somewhat in line and ensured that the descent was so gradual that a lot of the world did not notice. The Chinese and one Gulf State that I know of have offered the same, or more, cash with no political or human rights demands which has facilitated an increase in lawlessness. There is nothing I am aware of in the short term that is likely to improve the situation in sub - Saharan Africa. By the time foreigners have to go in and take over again to secure natural resources there will be no game. So get out there while it is still worth going.

Agreed

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
You cannot deal with the devil- better to walk away with your reputation and charicter intact than sucumb and end up essentially black listed like drummond for 'working with' someone on the sanctions list and being taken (correctly) as a thief by your collegues.

It takes years to build a good reputation...and a signature on a pice of paper with a new 'shareholder' to ruin it.

The other scam that has arrived today is that the new 'owner' demands payment for past hunts if I will not go into 'partnership'. two chances of either occuring - and Zero is the better of the two

My heart bleeds for you poor buggers, having to deal with cockroaches, locusts and cu@%ing fu#ts like Drummond.
The only joy and small joy it is, would be to stuff everything up. Grinding paste in engine sumps, loosen the rods in boreholes and if you can get away with it, a match in the thatch. Another stunt, as spring approaches and the bergwinds get into stride, a match upwind or as they say in the classics,"a flick of the Bic."

Milo, the correct zoological term is "Indigini horriblii."

The point I was making is that Zim safari operators and land owners across the country have been dealing with these issues since the first land grabs in 2000. No operator I know has not had serious concerns over their business or area at one point or another. But the guys left on the ground in this country are tough of mind and spirit, and they adapt and overcome like few other peoples on earth in the face of the earth. There are no easy answers, yet just throwing in the towel is not the answer. There IS good hunting in Zim, and while the future is always uncertain, these operators, AND the game they protect need as much help and support as our hunting community can provide them. We have friends, good friends in the SAVE and we are praying for this to come to a conclusion where their hard work and dedication to the game will not be in vain.

I am still coming next September. And maybe sooner if I can work it out. Listen, things have been for crap in Zim a lot over the years, but I am not ready to throw in the towel and roll over. When my PH says don't come then I will stay home, until then I will o to Zim and hunt. If you are too afraid to go, well then don't go, but don't be preaching end of the world doom and gloom. We sound like a bunch of scared little girls.

This is definitely a catch 22. Keep hunting in Zim and you (directly or not) keep the flow of money moving toward those in power who will (with their now heightened power) just make things worse. Stop hunting in Zim and you financially penalize the "good guys" because of the misused power that exists above them. The problem is that, increasingly it seems, when you enrich the good guys, the bad guys get even more brazen and are inevitably enriched more than the guy you are directly paying. We feed the political disease whether we like it or not. We pacify the crocodile hoping that he will eat us (or those we like) last and to varying degrees it might work.....might. However, when we hunt there....we are at best playing for time....hoping against hope that Bob dies and somehow things get better before the whole place (wildlife and all) is just gone....used up and little more than dust. Again, the problem in the third world is that when these guys die they tend to be replaced with someone similar...which probably means that Zim has to bottom out completely before things ever get better. Given that, should we just boycott the place, cut out the diseased tissue and sacrifice some healthy cells around it to be sure we got all the cancer? I honestly do not know.

Jmho

larryshores
one of us

Posted 14 August 2012 22:17 Hide Post
All areas of the Save have been assigned partners except Sango. Senuko has been assigned a partner.

The latest is that all PH's hunting in the Save have been notified that they will have their licenses suspends for a year because they conducted unauthorized hunts. One group was excepted. These are the black PH's that hunted in the Save.

Go figure.

Posts: 2788 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: 26 January 2006

Could prove a little more than difficult with this being the latest!!

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
we are at best playing for time....hoping against hope that Bob dies and somehow things get better before the whole place (wildlife and all) is just gone....used up and little more than dust. Again, the problem in the third world is that when these guys die they tend to be replaced with someone similar...which probably means that Zim has to bottom out completely before things ever get better.
Jmho

I would not bet on anything like that. Just watching our TV news tonight, Zim's "hero day" celebrations, if Mugabe dies, there are a hell of a lot military brass, politicians and the like, who will not be keen on giving up their fiefdoms yet. And with the MDC split, there will be no change coming from them. In fact, the MDC will only change the hierachy at the top of the dung heap.
This whole sorry saga for some reason reminds me of the demise of the Warsaw Ghetto in WW2. There are those who see the writing on the wall, but hope against hope, trust that what is happening, is not really happening.
So damn sorry to see it all end up like this.

Taken from US State Department correspondence.

SDN's stand for Specially Designated Nationals. Persons that are on the list not to business with.

"Targeting SDNs with interests in the hunting industry would be difficult, although possible. A broader effort to eliminate U.S. hunters from Zimbabwe would definitely effect SDNs with hunting interests, but would potentially cause the collapse of the hunting industry and would consequently have a devastating effect on Parks, conservation in Zimbabwe, biodiversity including the survival of specific endangered species, and a number of local communities. "