The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Scope or Open sights for Dangerous Game?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Scope or Open sights for Dangerous Game? | Login/Join |
| one of us |
Just thought I'd ask everyone's preference here... What rifle do you have them on also would be nice... Joel ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
I wear bi-focals and iron sights are no longer an option for me. I use a Swarovski 1.5x6x42mm ProHunter scope with "the battue" reticle. Fastest sight I've ever used. | |||
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one of us |
I wear trifocals and don't believe that a scope has much place on a rifle to be used at ranges under 150 yards. Express sights probably require more getting used to than I want to put out but large arperature peep sights are the bees' knees. I have a Talley on my .450 Rigby and am putting a Lyman 57 on my .318 WR. I may be acquiring a 9.3x62 and it will get a Swedish diopter. On the other hand, things like my .300 H&H carry good glass! I will concede DB a scope on his DGR presuming that it is a .416 as the trajectory is flat-shooting enough that ranges beyond 150 yards on large plains game is a distinct possibility. Jus' cranky ol' Sarge | |||
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| one of us |
I use both. I got a 1.1x4x30 mm Zeiss on my DGR (458 Lott)with QD Talley rings. My 416 Taylor and 375 both have scope and express sights. I also use bi-focals but I can still use express sight. If you are going to have express sight on a rifle you must practice with them. I shoot about 50-50 with scope and sights. Good Hunting ------------------ [This message has been edited by Santala (edited 08-14-2001).] | |||
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| one of us |
Many hundreds of thousands of big and dangerous game animals have been killed with guns using open sights (and thousands killed with guns with no sights at all!). This doesn't negate the fact that there is no circumstance, provided proper mounting and stock fit, in which a very low power scope is not superior as an aiming system to iron sights. [This message has been edited by Stonecreek (edited 08-14-2001).] | |||
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| one of us |
I have a scope on both my 375 H&H and my 416 Rem. The 416 has irons as well. My eyes and iron sights don't get along too well; maybe a ghost ring would work. I think this may be from years of training with a pistol where I concentrate on the front sight. ------------------ | |||
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| Moderator |
I like a scope as my primary sighting system; the irons are there as a last resort. George ------------------ | |||
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| <Ol' Sarge> |
Since Stonecreek mentioned no sights at all, I want to ask ya'll a question. Have you ever tried no sights? Yesterday I took the scope off my Rem 581 .22 and shot at a pop can at 30 yards. Just sighted down the barrel with both eyes open like you would with a shotgun. Shot as fast as I could work the bolt. I hit nearly as good as I can with a scope - but much faster. Try it. You will probably be surprised like I was. ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
My H&H 375, Sauer 9.3x62, Mauser Mod. A 10.75x68 and my Jefferys double have no provisions for iron sights..My 416 Rem M-70 Win. pre 64 has a 1x4 Leupold and Talley peep.....All my rifles have iron sights as I consider a rifles without irons extremely foolish on the hunter behalf, even if he never uses them, they are there for insurance. This has saved me more than once. I have little use for scopes for hunting Buffalo and elephant, for the most part, but I also play it safe and have a scoped rifle handy or a scope handy just in case a Kudu or whatever shows up at 300 yds while I'm hunting Buffalo or whatever...I wear bifocals also and it has never been a problem in my particular case.... Stonecreek, makes a flat statment that under no circumstances are iron sights better than a scope and like most flat out statments this one is just "almost correct" for most of todays hunters, the exception being up close in a charge situation where I can't imagine anyone wanting a clumsy projection sitting on top of the rifles receiver.... I never use sights up to about 50 yds. I just point and shoot. Instinctive shooting is extremely accurate at 25 yds. I normally can put both shots from a double into the same hole, center bull... I suspect many of the new generation and back as far as the baby boomers have never shot iron sights and have propagated the "written word" that irons are unsuitable for hunting use. They are, in fact, just as good as any scope up to a 150 yards and even up to 200 if you have done all your homework and practiced diligently..Beyond that the scope is king.. Bottom line is there is a place for everything and everything has its place. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Most people shoot better with a scope, however, with a little practice open sights can be very accurate! A friend of mine has a sharps 45-120 with a very nice tang peep sight. A couple of weeks ago we were shooting and could consistantly ring a 36" metal gong at 600 yards with that gun. I have watched other shooters hit very small targets with their sharps at 1500+ yards. I also agree with Ray that nothing beats good open sights for fast close in work! For shooting practice I use to jump shoot jack rabbits with a big game rifle. The shots were all less than 50 yards at a 6" target that is ducking and dodging through the sage brush. It does not take too many shots to realize what a handycap a scope is! | |||
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| one of us |
My guns shoot just fine with open sites but I shoot better with a scope. I've been shooting a scope for so long that I'm actually quicker with it too. I also wear bi-focals and I don't believe I'm as good of a shot with open sites as I used to be but I can still get it done. However, I still prefer a scope. A few years back a nice mulie buck popped out from behind a cedar tree that I was still hunting around. We were both surprised at about 30 feet. I instinctively threw my gun up and shot as Jack described and blew out his heart. There was no way I could get an accurate target with my scope set at 5x. Practice and fimularity paid off. | |||
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| <JohnDL> |
I prefer the use of a good, low-powered scope and use a 30mm Swarovski 1.25-4X variable on my DGR. HOWEVER, if you use a scope for dangerous game you should be smarter than me. Two years ago while hunting lion, me and the PH crawled into the blind in the predawn darkness. The bait tree was about 70 yards away. I could barely make out movement under the tree in the darkness. I cranked up the scope to 4 power and scanned the area and made out two lionesses but no lion. The light slowly began to get better and I continued to scan. Suddenly, my scope was filled with lion. The lion had actually set up right in front of the blind and finally winded us. Here I have a damned lion 8 feet in front of me staring right at me and the frigging scope is at 4 power. As it turned out he was a huge lion but only had an average mane and I turned him down. I yelled at him as loud as I could and he eventually trotted off. Moral to the story: while after dangerous game be careful how you set your scope power up. I guess it goes to show you--try to make something idiot-proof and they'll make a better idiot. | ||
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| <Fergus Bailey> |
I hunted cape buffalo with a rifle equipped with express sites and did not feel comfortable the whole time. I had to work hard to acquire the sight picture with iron sites, where a scope would have been a LOT more intuitive for me. On one occasion I was waiting for a buffalo to cross out of a National Park on dusk and found the iron sights getting very difficult to distinguish as the light faded. When I did finally get a shot on a buff, it was at about 60 yards in fairly long grass. I feel that a scope (even on the low power setting I would have used) would have helped me make the shot faster and with more confidence. The bottom line for me is that I do not use irons enough to have the confidence I would like and a scope is far more intuitive for me. I�ll stick with a low power scope on future DG hunts. Fergus ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
I like my 1.5-5x20 Leopold on my old .416...no .416 now, so I will have to find something else Joel ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
JohnDL, Boy, Have I seen that syndrome happen to a LOT of people, yours truly not excluded, that is exactly why I use fixed Leupolds and iron sights...The difference in 4X and 2.5x off the barrel doesn't seem like much, but it can make a difference...The 3x to 9X varibles and scopes of that ilk are the real culprits..Have I got some stories on them!! Especially on the Europeans who have an afinity for huge massive scopes, I've seen them do a saint Vidis dance in the Buffalo and Lion country, while someone else sorted their mess and they had to clean themselves up afterwards... ------------------ | |||
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| <JohnDL> |
Ray, One nice thing about being stupid is that one has a lot of company. | ||
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| Moderator |
My big bore rifles that get used on nasty things ALL wear scopes, Leupold 3X specifically. They also have back up iron sights and QD mounts that I never use. If I had the choice of hunting dangerous game with an iron sighted only rifle or just staying home, I'd just stay home.  | |||
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| one of us |
If I had to go into the THICK Jesse with a scope after a wounded dangerous animal, I'd stay home John..When in that stuff I don't want anything cluttering my reciever.. Since your so adament on that subject then why do you have irons on your guns?? Seems strange to me. White man speak with forked tongue.. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Where we were hunting Eland in May (Eastern Namibia), the brush was so thick, that my 3-9x scope was a hinderance...next time it's my 45-70 with a peep sight...no ???'s about it Joel ------------------ | |||
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| <Paul Dustin> |
I use low power scopes 1.5 x 6 Burris on my gun | ||
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| Moderator |
Ray- The irons are on my rifles for two reasons. The first is because I prefer the look, a big rifle just doesn't look "finished" without iron sights! The second reason is because I might want/need to sell them some day and there are enough folks around like yourself that wouldn't look at them if they didn't have those irons! | |||
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| one of us |
John, you certainly slipped out of that one well! and I must agree with your theory. Somewhere in there is a real hunter trying to get out. I know you actually loves thoes iron sights and you are just dying to use them but first you must overcome that fear, that trip into no-mans land is the first step.. I know you got it in you and you can do it, you just have to try it once and you will bloom like a rose and go forth into the veld and slay the mighty beeste with thoes wonderfull irons and become a convert for life...Trust me John on this one, I had a dream!! ------------------ | |||
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Moderator |
All this talk about irons got me thinking about something I have wondered for a while- I learned to use irons because they were what I had, but then I had plenty of land to roam around on too. Nowadays when time is the constraint and I go to a range I never use irons anymore. The exception was when I was bullseye shooting, but haven't had time for that committment since my daughter was born. So does anyone use iron sights who did not grow up in the outdoors with them? That seems to be the differentiator here I think. If you learned on scopes then you would be hesitant to use irons in a possibly serious situation like an animal charge is my way of thinking... | |||
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one of us |
I like irons: accurate enough for most of my hunting, and the gun is easier to handle, without a clumsy scope destroying the balance. In fact, in the field I hit b e t t e r with irons than a scope. Don�t ask me the reason, but I think that with a properly stocked rifle with good irons, you point automatically on the target. I�m not able to shoot with a scope without a rest. Perhaps it would be otherwise with a rifle stocked for shooting with a scope. And one last, irrational but strong reason, scopes are ugly. Because of all this, both of my scoped rifles have detachable mounts. The other ones have irons or peep-sight. Fritz K. [This message has been edited by Fritz Kraut (edited 08-16-2001).] | |||
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| one of us |
I agree with Mark and Fritz....I also shoot better offhand in the field with irons than I do with a scope...The last thing I need is my shaky old wabble magnified, I have a tendency to grab the trigger when the cross hairs wonder by looking for a target!!  Qualify the above up to a 150 maybe 200 yds. After that a scope comes into its own. ------------------ | |||
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| <Utter Damned Fool> |
Good point OlSarge. For shotgunner to use a scope, shooting with both eyes open, can be fast and very accurate. My .416 wears a 2-7 and I much prefer the clarity. Has anyone put Williams firesights on a DGR? I'm thinking of using them a a backup and they nay work well in lower light conditions. | ||
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| <JohnDL> |
I think we have to distinguish here who is using the DGR, the client or the PH. I don't think there is much doubt that most of us clients shoot better with a scope. The client's job is to place a good clean first shot. The PH is most likely to be involved in followup after wounded animals. Although similar they are quite different responsibilities. For the former, a scope will usually help that precise first shot. For followup work in the bush, iron sights may offer a quicker shot at a fast-moving target. | ||
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| <hd352802> |
No scope on my 458,the intended target is big enough. Hugh. | ||
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| <10point> |
Hey Atkinson what kind of sight's do you use to make those 500 yrd shot's ? Or do you just close your eye's and "be the rifle".......<snicker>........10 | ||
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| one of us |
I just went back and checked an article I had read in Rifle magazine written by Phil Shoemaker, an Alaskan guide with a lot of experience with brown bear in thick cover. The main thrust of the article is how much he likes the .416 RemMag but he also gets into the question of sights for a "dangerous game" rifle which in this case is a .416 for brown bear. He ran a test with 5 types of sights...a large ghost ring aperture sight, open V, variable scope set a 1X, scope set at 2.5X and an electronic holosight. The test was run 5 times for each sight and consisted of facing 90 degrees from a paper-plate set at 25 yards, turning on command and hitting it...with a timer and stopwatch. Slowest was 2.5x at 1.40 seconds, next was the ghost ring at 1.27 seconds, next fastest was the open V at 1.25 seconds, second fastest was the holosight at 1.08 seconds and the fastest was the 1x scope at 0.99 seconds. He also mentions the hits were better centered on the plate with the scope. Now this is a very experienced guide who follows brown bear into some of the thickest, nastiest cover in the world plus in can happen in some of the nastiest weather. He has a scope on his back-up .416. Comments from the iron sight crowd? | |||
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| one of us |
If I would repeat the test with my own rifles, my old SAKO M98 with a Husqvarna peep-sight would be the fastest. The drilling with an attached scope the slowest one. But as I wrote, my rifles are stocked for irons. It�s not unlikely that I could shoot fast and accurate with a rifle stocked for scope. My gunstocks just don�t fit with scopes. And I think that the stock must fit, regardless of sight type. The importance of the stock is IMHO underestimated in this discussion. (Atkinson has written some word worth reflection on this site earlier.) But I go on using irons by the reason I mentioned above - and one more: you can�t carry your rifle with comfortable one-hand-grip around the action with a mounted scope... Fritz K. | |||
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| Administrator |
Gentlemen, I am friad my eye sight is not what it used to be. I have to wear contact lenses while hunting, otherwise I would not be able to hunt at all. My rifle has no open sights, and I really have no wish to have them either. So a scope is what I use all the time, even on elephants at 15 yards or less. ------------------ www.accuratereloading.com | |||
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| one of us |
DB, As you will notice above I book for Phil and he is a savvy guy with a world of experience...but I don't always agree with him on all subjects. I am sure he is 100 percent correct for HIM... My point is we are all individual and my test have showed I'm fastest with instinct shooting and surprisingly enough that is my most accrurate shooting.. next is the receiver sight with a ghost ring, then a 1x Weaver that for all practical purposes tied with the shallow v....the u notch is slow for me...but most important the scope prevents accurate shooting with my instinctive procedure of point and shoot, it throughs me out of wack!! Finn Aagard also was fastest with the 1X and shoot with both eyes open, he couldn't shoot irons worth a flip... But, Bill all you puppys are baby boomers, raised on glass!! ------------------ | |||
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| <JohnDL> |
Were I a PH my DGR would probably be of larger caliber, have a shorter barrel, and have a quick detatchable scope. As a client though, my "DGR" also doubles as backup plainsgame rifle so it has to be a bit more versatile. I've brought an ironsighted double rifle to Africa only once (.500NE). While I enjoyed it, its versatility was lacking. | ||
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| Moderator |
As kids in the 50's we grew up shooting BB and pellet guns with rough iron sights and we were damn good with our young eyes and muscles. Our first rimfires also wore iron sights only and we marveled at the shots we made. A bit further on, we graduated to scopes and it took very little time for us to come to the realization that the shots we once marveled at, while using the irons, were almost routinely bettered when using a scope. It soon became apparent that we now required a whole new set of criteria to enable us to start "marveling" at our shooting prowess once again. Progress tends to do this. Any rifle will shoot tighter groups with a proper scope than with its iron sights, at any distance. To state that the alignment of three objects can be more quickly accomplished than the alignment of two is to ignore the science of the matter. This simply can not be.... and, more so, when one of the "two" objects also provides clarity and magnification. The only rationales for the preference of irons that I can relate to are pure aesthetics and the perception that the scoped receiver constitutes a physical encumbrance in tight quarters, as I think Ray is saying. The ability to see better, assists in the avoidance of obstacles we never would have seen without the aid of clear optics and to place our bullets with greater precision at any and all ranges. Please do not tell me the buffalo, moose or elk is plenty big enough for iron sights and that you can not derive real benefits from quality optics of suitable magnification. It is not true. | |||
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| <R. A. Berry> |
Well said Nick! However, such rational eloguence is wasted on some individuals. I will take a scope of low power and a backup peep or express sight. I correct to 20/10 with my "huntin' spectacles" and a little presbyopia is no hindrance for any kind of shooting where iron sights work well, especially with a peep. With a scope I am visually perfected, and faster and more accurate than anyone with iron sights, with any size target at any range, under any lighting conditions...this is too obvious to argue...I just had to throw these superlatives in to make a point. No contest, scope wins. ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
RA, Nick, Faster, more accurate, THAT ANYONE with iron sights? I hope someday I can get you on the range, with a pocket full of money, one of us is going home broke!! ------------------ | |||
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| Administrator |
Ray, I will be happy to have a friendly shooting match with you. You using iron sights and me using a scope. Can you tell me what the range and target is please, so I get to practice? ------------------ www.accuratereloading.com | |||
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| Moderator |
Ray, I suggest you shoot against that handsome devil Atkinson so that, after you arrive at the correct conclusion, you can simply stash the cash in another pocket of the same pair of pants and go home a winner! You ain't BS'ing me, you just leave that double rifle at home! | |||
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