Firstly, I want to admit I am not a very extensive or experienced user of Model 70's.

Secondly, I am not a big fan of the 3-position safety. It seems like a lot of wasted motion.

But the kicker is the discovery I made while on a recent trip:

I am walking up to the side of the PH to try to nail this critter. I have the rifle sort of at parade rest, pointed ahead but stratled between my hands and not up to my shoulder. I slip the safety off the .416 and it goes bang!!!

The rifle just about flies from my hands, as I catch it by the barrel with my right hand, the rear sight cutting my palm. It scared the crap out of both the PH, since he was still slightly ahead of me, and myself.

I didn't know what the hell happened.

I then, later, discover that the barest pressure applied to the trigger, even the slightest touch, when the safety is pushed forward, will release the firing pin, and it goes bang!

So I tried it on another Mod. 70 I have when I got home and the same thing.

I guess I had never done this in the past, by shear coincidence, and I admit this was my own doing by having my finger anywhere near the trigger, but this is not good.

Is this the way Mod. 70's are suppose to be?

Spooky!

Will,
Let me first state that I have read your posts for quite a while here and respect your experience. That said, I had to read your post 3 times to be sure you said what you said. You were simply violating the most basic rule of safety, keep your finger off the trigger until the sights are on target. You say the gun went off when you pulled the trigger at the same time as you released the safety, off course it did!
EDIT: I just ran upstairs and checked this out on 2 model 70's and yes it sure does happen. One more reason to follow the golden rule which I will be the first to admit you did, by not having the rifle pointed at the PH,truck,etc. you avoided a tradgedy and that speaks of experience as well.

[ 10-03-2003, 05:06: Message edited by: KevinNY ]

It depends on how much pressure you are putting on the trigger, and how light your trigger is.

Some other guns I have do the same thing...

Bottom line? Your finger isn't supposed to be anywhere near the trigger until you are going to shoot!!

Yep, mine does the same thing. If I pull the trigger while taking the safety off, the striker falls. I'll bet it would have fired if it was loaded. Thanks for the heads up.

H. C.

Admittedly, I shouldn't have had my finger anywhere near the trigger.

On the other hand, it seems strange that the slightest touch of the trigger, much less force than the three pounds required to normally pull the trigger, will set the thing off.

It was news to me!

[ 10-03-2003, 05:47: Message edited by: Will ]

I own model 70 rifles in just about every caliber from .22 to .375.......I've never had this problem.

Bill,

When I first read your post I was not sure what you were doing. It does sound like a Rule Three violation (Keep your finger off the trigger until the sights are on the target).

Were you taking the safety off with your thumb while resting your trigger finger on the trigger?

jim

Jim,

My finger was "touching" the trigger (in retrospect) when I pushed off the safety. I had no idea that that would set it off. I'll have to try it on other rifles but I had never experienced that sort of thing before.

P.S.

I just tried it on a CZ sitting here and it doesn't do it without really pulling the trigger.

I'll know better next time.

[ 10-03-2003, 06:27: Message edited by: Will ]

That gun may have a bit of a hair-trigger which can be adjusted but yeah you never have your finger inside the trigger guard unless your ready to shoot. When I was a little kid my mother was deer hunting with my dad and when they came back she kinda roughly laid the .270 across the pickup hood and boom.....she had her finger on the trigger. After that she never hunted again.

Most rifles will fire if you have the trigger pulled back and take the safey of I don't know on any the will not. I just tryed ruger, rem ,marlin a mod 98, a 03 and a couple of break open sxs,s they all fire when you have the trigger pulled back and take the safey off. I knew they would but just wanted to run a simple test before posting. Duh pulling back on the trigger when safety is not ingaged will cause rifle to fire. Nothing knew here. The same thing forces are ineffect when you pull back the trigger with the safety on then release it. I remember reading about a PH who's rifle would fire taking the safety off he just used the safety as the trigger. When he wanted to shoot he would take aim the flick the safety off. Trick here is to never put you finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire. Us varmint target shooters who use really light pulls .5 to 1.5 lbs know very well to keep the finger off the trigger.

I had the same problem with a HS Precision Rifle. They replaced the Safety and I never had the problem again.

On a related note, a test that I always perform when buying a used rifle is to engage the safety, pull the trigger hard, release my finger from the trigger, and then release the safety. I've had *one* go off after doing this. If your trigger has any "play" in it, and doesn't "reset" for whatever reason after releasing pressure on it, you may be "staging" it in the manner of a two-stage trigger.

Try it with yours Will & see what happens.

I'm glad you had it pointed in a somewhat safe direction at the time.

Have that rifle inspected, Will. If your finger was "just there", as you suggest, there's certainly a problem. I've had a few Remingtons go off, just behind me, via the simple release of the safety. Worn sear engagement. No humor.
The condition, as you describe it, is just as bad.

[ 10-03-2003, 16:25: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Not sure what is going on here. I think that there is more than just "if I have a 3 pound trigger and I exert 3 pounds of force with the safety off, then the gun goes bang". My impression from the original post was that Will was barely touching the trigger (ie. less than 3 pounds in my example) and releasing the safety caused the firing pin to release. I understand that the cardinal safety rule was broken, but, having said that, is there some mechanical explanation for what happened? ie. is there something about that particular trigger design. I must confess I don't know enough to even hazard a guess.
peter.

OOPS. henry just answered my question!
peter.

H.C.

Thanks for the discussion, not that I really understand it. I am assuming the conclusion is that I really can't do anything about it.

Is that true?

Will, you just did that on purpose, to scare hell out of that Lying PH!!!!!!!

I would probably have a 'smith look at that trigger. I've worked on several M70 triggers...they are wonderfully simple to adjust, and just as easy to adjust a TINY bit too much when taking out overtravel.

In the firearms training trade there's a concept called sympathetic action that is responsible for a good number of unintentional discharges. It generally happens in high stress situations, e.g., a police officer has his gun in his right hand and is grappling with a suspect with his left; the grasping action of the left hand causes a sympathetic gripping of the right hand, and if the officer has his finger on the trigger, the contraction of the right hand causes an unintentional discharge.

There's a chance that this happened here, i.e., the pushing of the safety caused an unintentional contraction of the trigger finger, firing the rifle.

But this is really besides the point, since what happened is a clear Rule Three violation and that is real proximate cause of this unintentional discharge. As is oft repeated, safety is between your ears, not on the gun.

Okay,

I just went to the gun shop and bought a pre-64 .375.

I tried the "touching" the trigger thing when pushing the safety off and it didn't "fire".

And it holds 4 down, which surpised me.

Maybe I can fix the .416.

Besides the obvious gun safety rule violation, the ergonomics of both the Model 70 and the Remington 700 safeties, will make it fairly likely that the gun will fire if you have a finger on the trigger as you release the safety. You are moving your thumb without any real support for the rest of your hand, and the contact area with the stock acts as a fulcrum so that when your thumb releases the safety, it pivots the trigger finger on the trigger. Doesn't take much really.

Moral: Keep your finger off the trigger.

Will, the Model 70 trigger is very simple, very rugged, and very reliable, and the design is absolutely, 100% sound. It's just simple enough to get you into trouble if it's improperlyly messed with, and yes, I've had Model 70 trigger problems myself in the not-so-distant-past, and entirely due to gunsmithing errors - not design.

The problem with the current Model 70, in general, is that its design remains pretty much the same as of circa 1936, but it's now put together by semi-human/semi-robotic parts (good union men though!) assemblers instead of qualified gunsmiths. Also, many (if not most) of the independent gunsmiths out there are not real Model 70 experts, and many of these guys incorrectly adjust Model 70 triggers and as a result make them unsafe.

The best Model 70 guys make the trigger very crisp, but absolutely safe - safe enough to slam the bolt on or drop the butt on without the firing pin dropping. They'll also "time" the safety and the trigger to perfectly work together without hesitation or binding, and to release cleanly and perfectly every time.

This is not some kitchen table exercise: These guys have jigs and fixtures set up for precise, exacting, job-specific work - not freehand guesswork - and that's the real difference, when you get right down to it.

I have never, ever had a Model 70 trigger surprise me or otherwise fail when it's been properly adjsuted by someone who really knows what he's doing.

As always, not all gunsmiths are created equal.

AD

I just did what you did, Will, on both my Model 70's and the rifles didn't dry fire. One has a 3 lb. trigger. Maybe take yours to a 'smith or something.

Any M-70, Sako,Husky,Remington or any variation of the Mauser will go off if you are pulling the trigger, depending on the trigger pull...

All of mine will do that because I do not want a 5 lb. trigger...basically if you put 2 lbs of pressure on a 2 lb. trigger and push the safty off it will fire, the same with a 10 lb. trigger...even my Savage mod 99 will do that and so will my 1911 45 ACP....

That is the way guns work... You being a gunsafe person probably never even considered this... It's a great topic for a heads up to all.....

I am surprised that anyone would be surprised that the rifle would fire when releasing the safety with your finger on the trigger.

Along the same lines, I got my wake up call with a 22-250 700. At the end of a cold winter coyote hunt I went back to my truck and met some of the others. Thankfully I pointed the gun at the ground and released the safety to remove the chambered round. BANG and I was no where near the trigger. After the shock, I inspected the trigger and found that wet snow was in the trigger guard and had frozen the trigger "back". Smith said everything was fine but it started me on a "visual inspection" routine, especially if I'm in the snow or goo. Just a thought along safety lines that we can all learn from.
Jeff

Will, the model 70 safety and a number of others, cam the cocking piece away from the sear. It does not block the trigger. The pull on a trigger is made up of the small trigger return spring and the friction created between the sear surfaces. The friction is a result of the force exerted by the firing pin spring on the sear surfaces. By pulling on the trigger (and it takes very little with the cocking piece cammed back)you released the trigger so that there was nothing for the sear to contact when the safety came off. Try this experiment. Take the bolt out. Put your finger on the portion of the sear that protrudes through the cocking cam raceway and press down on it. YOu will feel a "stop" where you can not push it any further. Now put your finger on the trigger and pullit very slightly and push again. If you did not feel the stop then the trigger has been released. You will feel how little force was applied. There is nothing to fix.

Chic,

Thanks for the reply. I will experiment to see what is going on, and if fixable.

Besides all the obvious "don't put your finger on the trigger," it is totally unacceptable that you cannot breath on the trigger without it going off when the safety is pushed off.

I can visualize the situtaion of standing in grass over my head hunting elephants. And I have to worry about a grass stem setting off the rifle when I push off the safety...bullshit!

[ 10-04-2003, 07:50: Message edited by: Will ]

I have know this for many years. I never leave my rifles cocked when not hunting. When you put the bolt down and hold on to the trigger this will release the firing pin. Same goes when you hold the trigger down and release the safety. Of course I never have a round in the chamber when I do this. I do not know if this is failure in the system or not. But, I was told by a reliable gunsmith this relieves pressure on the firing pin spring and makes it last longer. Now if you did not have your finger on the trigger and released the safety and it fired now you have a serious problem and it needs to fixed.

Will, I had a Model 70 in .458 go off while hunting hippo when I worked the bolt hard and fast for a reload, and luckily, the hippo was down and finished when this happened. My PH and I tried to get the rifle to slam-fire again, and sure enough, it happened two more times.

After I returned home, I took the rifle back to the same local gunsmith who did the trigger work to begin with for readjustment, and the rifle will no longer slam-fire, no matter how hard you work the bolt.

Fundamentally, the trigger on that .458 was set too light (2.5 lbs.) to be safe, and that's the basic problem (besides bad gunsmithing) that leads to problems with the Model 70 trigger. Those light triggers feel great at the range, and the ugly problems don't crop up (as a rule) when you're practicing, but somehow manage to reveal themselves at the worst possible time in the bush.

To be absolutely safe, the Model 70 trigger needs to be properly adjusted and the safety timed by a professional, and I'd rather not have the trigger any lighter that 3.5 lbs. If you need a trigger lighter than that, I suggest replacing the factory Model 70 trigger professionally replaced with a Timney. All of my current Model 70s have dead-crisp 3.5 lb. trigger pulls, and they are completely safe and reliable, and I've tested then every way I know how. A crisp trigger release is better that one that's too light.

I've said this before, but not all riflesmiths properly understand this trigger system, and even if they do, sometimes they don't understand how the rifle might be used or what it might be subjected to in the bush.

AD

Customstox:

Are you saying that if I have the safety "on" on a Model 70 and pull the trigger that it will fire on safety release? Hogwash. Or at least the 4 of them that I have tried that procedure on around the house don't. And I pulled plenty hard on them to see if it would fire on safety release.

Gatorado, no that is not what I said. If the safety is on and you pull on the trigger with a lot less than your normal trigger pull and then release the safety with your finger still in contact with the trigger it will go off.

Way to go Will!

Keep your finger off the blasted trigger when taking the safety off and readying for fire.

Otherwise, be sure you have your sights lined up on the target before you touch the safety and the trigger at the same time.

Another point for us to disagree on: the proper way to disengage the safety.

How often is a blade of grass going to brush your trigger at the precise instant you are disengaging the trigger?

I would suggest cupping all four fingers around the outside of the trigger guard as your thumb pushes the safety forward. That will keep those pesky grass blades off the trigger, and it will keep your trigger finger off the trigger too!

All of my DG rifles have 4 lb. trigger pulls that break clean..With light triggers it is very easy to let one off prematurely on a closing animal or in the heat of the moment, whatever that might be...A somewhat lighter trigger is acceptable on a deer or plainsgame rifle IMO...

As a final note:

Adjusting the trrigger pull from 3 to 4+ lbs. has eliminated the "touch" problem. Thanks Allen.