A court in South Africa has roared.
Ian van der Merwe, a judge in the Free State High Court in Bloemfontein, South Africa, has issued a written decision that requires lion farmers to let their animals roam free on their ranches for two years before allowing their customers to hunt them. The ruling could wipe out the so-called "canned hunting" industry, in which tourists pay about US$40,000 for the right to kill trophy lions.
The 81-page decision upholds the efforts of country's environment ministry to shut down what it has described as a "reprehensible" industry.
The judge seems to share in that view. At para 71 he writes:
It is not disputed that the hunting of lions bred in captivity has damaged the reputation of the Republic of South Africa immensely. It is clear on the evidence and also not disputed that very many people all over the world find the notion of hunting a lion bred and raised in captivity, often by hand, and totally dependent on humans for its survival, abhorrent and repulsive. I find this view to be objectively reasonable and justifiable, to say the least.
The challenge to the government's action was launched by the South African Predator Breeders Association -- the interestingly named body, as in this particular instance the word "predator" could arguably refer both the animals and the persons breeding them. Carel van Heerden, head of the association, said in an interview:
It will close down our business. We don’t understand why we have been picked on.
Drew Hasselback

From “Legal Post”.

[QUOTE]Carel van Heerden, head of the association, said in an interview:

It will close down our business. We don’t understand why we have been picked on.
[QUOTE]

Wow. I mean, wow. I just don't know what to even say about this guy's quote: "We don't understand why we have been picked on."

Just wow.

Robert if this surprises you just wait a few months or a year and you will hear yourself making the same comment. Your life and freedoms as you (even in Kalifornia) know them now will be going, going, going, gone!

The wheels of politics turn slow especially in Africa. Has not captive lion hunting issue been on and off the hot burner for years yet the practice goes on. It would not surprise me to see some here writing about it still in 5 years.
Unlike several frequent posters here on AR I've been to a few of these "canned" lion operations an recently culled a lion from one of them. I saw no lions walking up to me waiting to have their ears scratched or trying to lick my face as a sign of affection. The operations I have first hand experience with were not totally different then the entire stocking/breeding operations of plains game that seems so acceptable to so many whom hunt fenced ranches in the south of Africa in general.
It is what it is ... an industry...and for the breeders part they are not trying to sell it as anything else but that.
IMHO ALL these RSA Cape region ranches that buy/breed/stock game to offer "safaris" to visiting Bawanas should fall under the same scrutiny as those offering lion hunts. I'd like to see the consultants crusing here on AR searching for bookings be as vocal about that practice as they are about captive lion breeding programs..... (that'll be the day!)

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
The wheels of politics turn slow especially in Africa. Has not captive lion hunting issue been on and off the hot burner for years yet the practice goes on. It would not surprise me to see some here writing about it still in 5 years.
Unlike several frequent posters here on AR I've been to a few of these "canned" lion operations an recently culled a lion from one of them. I saw no lions walking up to me waiting to have their ears scratched or trying to lick my face as a sign of affection. The operations I have first hand experience with were not totally different then the entire stocking/breeding operations of plains game that seems so acceptable to so many whom hunt fenced ranches in the south of Africa in general.
It is what it is ... an industry...and for the breeders part they are not trying to sell it as anything else but that.
IMHO ALL these RSA Cape region ranches that buy/breed/stock game to offer "safaris" to visiting Bawanas should fall under the same scrutiny as those offering lion hunts. I'd like to see the consultants crusing here on AR searching for bookings be as vocal about that practice as they are about captive lion breeding programs..... (that'll be the day!)

2th doc,

With all due respect, you're talking absolute bollocks.

The fact that you think the two things are similar in any way just shows how little you know about the hunting industry in general and this part of it in particular.

Steve I respect your opinion but it is only that your opinion. Mine is if it isn't native to the area, born free range it is there by the hand of man. It makes no difference to me if it is a dik dik or lion, i.e. fallow deer in a Cape region enviorment are there for what purpose... to be on the must have list of a sport with the cash to kill it.... same as a MGM tom. If as your frequent post you are truly anti bred lion then it must be all anti bred animals not just those whom aren't politically acceptable.

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
Steve I respect your opinion but it is only that your opinion. Mine is if it isn't native to the area, born free range it is there by the hand of man. It makes no difference to me if it is a dik dik or lion, i.e. fallow deer in a Cape region enviorment are there for what purpose... to be on the must have list of a sport with the cash to kill it.... same as a MGM tom. If as your frequent post you are truly anti bred lion then it must be all anti bred animals not just those whom aren't politically acceptable.

You're missing the point completely. The plains game species you're referring to live and breed in very large (albeit fenced) areas. They're not habituated to man or vehicles to any appreciable extent and they know the area in which they live and can therefore seek refuge in the areas they know will be hard for the hunter to access etc.

The Lions however, are bred in pens, very habituated to man and vehicles, are pretty much always transported to a different area (that they don't know) prior to shooting and are often under the influence of drugs when they are shot......... Hell, we've even seen reports on the forums where guys who have thought they were hunting wild Lions gleefully reported how the Lion ran towards the vehicle so they just waited till it got close and then shot it. The reason they run to the vehicle, is because they think they're gonna get fed.

You might like to read articles 18 & 20 here: http://www.shakariconnection.c...unting-articles.html

The lions are essentially **livestock** and should be treated no differently than other **livestock**.

All this will do is make it unprofitable to raise lions, and thus reduce the population of lions in SA.

Oh my God, 2th doc, haven't you learned anything by reading here. There is a major difference between plains game and captive breed buffalo etc from Lions, but like you I for the life of me see no difference. In fact I have read many more accounts of hunters bering charged by the captive breed lions than from truly wild lions. The one thing that we must remember is that Steve is the final authority on captive bred lions one must not I repeat must not question his authority on this subject. Now I will cower off into my corner of the USA and await my well deserived verbal tongue lashing.

Die,
ToothDoc has not learned a thing since he has been posting (a very short time). He/she speaks uniformed opinions on subjects that he has no real first hand experience.

Most of the experienced hunters on AR have seen first hand the lion industry in RSA as well as the ranch hunting. You and Shakari are correct - they are two different practices. One is raising lions in cages, turning them loose in an enclose paddock and shooting them. The other are a variety of plains game, usually tranlocated to a new ranch, turned loose to fend for themselves. They are usually full breeding populations for animals that live on very large ranches, some high fenced, some not.

He speaks of that which he knows not.

Not the final authority at all. I just believe it's unethical for someone to offer such a hunt...... esp when the buyer is led to believe he's hunting a wild Lion and at least equally unethical to shoot a (often drugged) Lion that doesn't know the area he's in.

I agree with you that habituated Lions are no less dangerous than wild ones, often more dangrous and I've often expressed that opinion.

More importantly, I believe the antis could easily (and eventualy would) use it as a weapon against us to stop all African sport/trophy hunting, so it's better for it to be banned before that happens.

That's my opinion and I'm entitled to express it anytime I want to.

Incidentally, it's also pretty much the opinion of SCI.

Oh my God the SCI has done something with which you can agree, well I know some of the people some of the time, eh.

I'd call it one of the best decisions they've ever made.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I'd call it one of the best decisions they've ever made.

Maybe the "Inner Circle" have all fulfilled their requirements for 'Diamond'

Steve JYO.

I expect they'll be a sudden flood of Lion hunt donations at the 2010 convention!

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Oh my God the SCI has done something with which you can agree, well I know some of the people some of the time, eh.

I bet they did not have much of a choice!

On the other and, if the lion breeders "donated" a few lions to SCI, they might still be under consideration

To make a true sport out of "Canned lion hunting" the rule should be that the hunter is only allowed to have one shot with him, and the PH should sit in the shade drinking something of pleasure , while listning out for "excitements"
in the field.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
Steve I respect your opinion but it is only that your opinion. Mine is if it isn't native to the area, born free range it is there by the hand of man. It makes no difference to me if it is a dik dik or lion, i.e. fallow deer in a Cape region enviorment are there for what purpose... to be on the must have list of a sport with the cash to kill it.... same as a MGM tom. If as your frequent post you are truly anti bred lion then it must be all anti bred animals not just those whom aren't politically acceptable.

You're missing the point completely. The plains game species you're referring to live and breed in very large (albeit fenced) areas. They're not habituated to man or vehicles to any appreciable extent and they know the area in which they live and can therefore seek refuge in the areas they know will be hard for the hunter to access etc.

The Lions however, are bred in pens, very habituated to man and vehicles, are pretty much always transported to a different area (that they don't know) prior to shooting and are often under the influence of drugs when they are shot......... Hell, we've even seen reports on the forums where guys who have thought they were hunting wild Lions gleefully reported how the Lion ran towards the vehicle so they just waited till it got close and then shot it. The reason they run to the vehicle, is because they think they're gonna get fed.

You might like to read articles 18 & 20 here: http://www.shakariconnection.c...unting-articles.html

Steve: I'm missing the point... I doubt it
! What I see is a booking agent whom dislikes canned lion hunting but skirts the rest of the stocked/bred hunting issues while he continues to scan the internet forums for prospective clients daily.
That is option an you have every right to continue doing so but you have no right to hold a Hollier Than Thou opinion against someone whom opts for a released lion while booking a client for a released red line buff.

I'll not change your habits of frequently posting about some poor naive bloke whom fell for a scam anymore than you'll change mine but don't be a snob not everyone can afford a few trips into the Moawasi region for a truly wild well mature tom. Some hunters for reasons of their own just want to say they've killed a lion and to them doing it with a released lion is just as perfectly justified as killing a buff whom was rounded up by helicopter held in a pen until all blood tests, vet clearances an quarrentine times had elapsed then trucked off to a RSA shooting ranch to be sold as "Black Death" one of the deadly Big Five.

I posted on another thread somewhere that I have little orm no interest in anti/pro captive lion disputes an that they may go on without me...I do believe this one may as well. Doc.

Shakari,

This may be a stupid question because I do not have the knowledge on these matters....but regarding the new laws forbidding canned lion hunts .....I suppose at this point all of these captive lions have little or no value and it must be expensive to feed and care for them?

My questions are: Would it be possible to transport all of these lions to different countries that have good habitat but low lion population (Botswana for example that has just put limits lion hunting) for the purpose to repopulate the species and secure a diverse genetic makeup?

It appears to me we have an opportunity to form a partnership with the anti-hunting organizations that have huge amounts of disposable income and they would jump at the chance to relocate the cute lions back into the wild. I can see it now...Born Free part 2. Think of the positive press when the hunting organizations join with Animal Humane Societies and free are these lion prisoners.

We could get these liberal animal huggers to spend their millions of dollars by purchasing the lions at market price from the ranchers, pay for the transportation to the new sites and AR members will have a stable renewable resource for our enjoyment. SCI would be forced to contribute money as well...and this would make Saeed happy! Everyone wins.

Shakari, does this make sense?


Dale

2th

If you can't recognise the difference I mentioned in my previous post, I have absolutely no doubt you're missing the point completely.

If you read my profile or visit my sites, you'll find I'm neither an agent nor do I offer Buff etc in fenced areas etc. You'll also never see me peddling my services here.... If someone wants to book with me, they will and I have no need to peddle my services anywhere.

Dale,

Not a stupid question at all. I should begin by saying I'm not a zoologist and my opinion is only that of an (perhaps informed?) layman.

It's possible to translocate them, but I doubt there'd be the money to do it and more importantly, I should think the release of 'strangers' into areas that already have established prides would probably cause all kinds of problems with pride dynamics that could and probably would mean the death of more Lions than the thanslocation would bring in.

I'd guess that about the only way it might work is if entire, established prides were translocated into areas that had no significant Lion populations present......... but then of course, it'd require established prides with established hierachy and most of these SA Lions probably/largely lack that particular benefit.

Lots of issues with releasing these animals in the wild. Not the least of which is a propensity to become man eaters. They associate people with food now, imagine they go a week or so without feeding. You don't throw a wild pig then your thigh will do nicely. Maybe not a big deal for the heavily armed white guy in country for a couple of weeks, but the locals aren't as equipped.

And this is what happened to the lions in Born Free (remember "elsa"). They had to be poisoned.

As for hunting. No one considers hunting these animals as "fair chase". So if you are okay with spending $50k traveling to Africa to shoot what is essentialy pen raised livestock in a smallish enclosure then maybe this works for you. But don't brag to your friends about being the modern day Teddy Roosevelt, remember he wouldn't shoot the bear.

The only really moral issue is if you consider lions livestock. If you are okay with that then you are probably okay with the industry as the "hunters" are simply harvesting them, if you think lions are something more then livestock then you probably don't care much for the industry. Good people have good arguements for both sides of that equation.

I have seen video footage of 'canned lion hunts' and in many the lions do run towards the vehicle thinking they are going to be fed only to get a bullet. What happened to 'may the best man/lion win?' On a true lion hunt, chances are that you could come off second best - I thought that's part of the thrill of a true lion hunt.. Outwitting each other. Sorry, canned lion hunting is not for me..it's totally one sided.

I guess running the engine and tooting the horn puts a whole new meaning on the phrase calling 'em in,

After readfing Teddy's African Trails. damn I hope I can shoot better than he could. At least he was honest in admitting all the poor shots he took. My opinion sure has changed since that read. I am sure he would have been in all of SCI circles and cycles.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I guess running the engine and tooting the horn puts a whole new meaning on the phrase calling 'em in,

I once experienced a "hunt" for exotic game in a Western state. A pretty much "big time" editor of an outdoor magazine (who had invited me) and I were in the back seat of an open CJ7 the first morning leaving the bunkhouse to begin the hunt. In the little cargo space behind us stood a guy from the Northeast U.S., holding on to the roll bar. He was going to be dropped off somewhere to meet his guide or something. ... Anyway...

When we approached the first gate, the driver got out to open it, and made a bunch of noise with the chain that secured it. It was barely light and visibility was less than 100 yards.

As my host and I remained in the back and shot the bull, both of us noticed about 15 or so of some kind of goats running toward us (and the sound of the chain on the metal gate which apparently meant dinner).

The whole damn sky lit up with a trememdous BOOM!!! right over our heads. The guy in the back had shot over us and the guy at the gate and killed a goat.

No crap, he looked at us with eyes wide as saucers and said, "What was that and how much does it cost".

My hearing and that of my friend has never been the same.

Interesting, where the animals that we were supposed to hunt were located was about 5500 acres and wasn't so bad, but the idiot who shot did so in a holding pen of about two acres where some animals were being held (and fed?)for sale. He didn't ride with us anymore, btw.

quote:

Originally posted by Gail Selby:
I have seen video footage of 'canned lion hunts' and in many the lions do run towards the vehicle thinking they are going to be fed only to get a bullet. What happened to 'may the best man/lion win?' On a true lion hunt, chances are that you could come off second best - I thought that's part of the thrill of a true lion hunt.. Outwitting each other. Sorry, canned lion hunting is not for me..it's totally one sided.

Couldn't help to reply to this post!
Yes, Gail I've seen those same videos or the equals to them myself. I've also seen first hand some poorly run operations by the make a quick buck crowd but in all fairness I've also seen some well managed operations, Tam's comes first to mind an no one mentions them in the same breath as the shamers.
Comments like Steve's tooting of the horn do more to describe his personality than that of the well run operations such as Tam.
I don't walk one side of canned lion hunting or the other issue though I do walk the line that there is hunting for everyone. The choice is up to the individual if they can justify doing it so be it. I see no difference in buying PG and stocking them for the hunter than I do stocking lion...surely the mere fact one is "a lion" doesn't cut much with me both are planted to be killed.
Free range hunting is entirely different we all know that or at least should but without the stocked hunting ranches just how many traveling sportsmen would go on safari in a typical year? Not everyone can afford multiple trips after free range lion at $40,000 a pop.

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:

Couldn't help to reply to this post!
Yes, Gail I've seen those same videos or the equals to them myself. I've also seen first hand some poorly run operations by the make a quick buck crowd but in all fairness I've also seen some well managed operations, Tam's comes first to mind an no one mentions them in the same breath as the shamers.
Comments like Steve's tooting of the horn do more to describe his personality than that of the well run operations such as Tam.
I don't walk one side of canned lion hunting or the other issue though I do walk the line that there is hunting for everyone. The choice is up to the individual if they can justify doing it so be it. I see no difference in buying PG and stocking them for the hunter than I do stocking lion...surely the mere fact one is "a lion" doesn't cut much with me both are planted to be killed.
Free range hunting is entirely different we all know that or at least should but without the stocked hunting ranches just how many traveling sportsmen would go on safari in a typical year? Not everyone can afford multiple trips after free range lion at $40,000 a pop.

Damn, that's one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read and I can only refer you to my first post on this.

The company you mention often has some very 'interesting' clips on you tube and also has a very 'interesting' reputation.

Thanks for the laugh though!!!

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
Not everyone can afford multiple trips after free range lion at $40,000 a pop.

True. Very true.

But I'd rather never hunt at all than compromise my personal ethics.

I've hunted exactly two places where the game was confined by a fence. One was a ranch in Namibia, which didn't bother me at all as the ranch was so huge that if you were dropped into the middle of it you would die of thirst before ever having the hope of even seeing the fence. Or the farmhouse. Or another human being.

The other was for Fallow Deer and Red Stag in New Zealand.

In both cases, I didn't know what I was doing. I put the minimum bids down at the silent auction at the DSC convention in Dallas. Apparently, no one else was bidding. So I won.

And I was just off of active duty from overseas, not following current events, and just eager to make up lost time. I didn't even know that some hunting destinations were famous for their canned hunts.

I did a lot of reflecting after I found what I had gotten myself into. Fortunately, it could have been worse. As I mentioned, the Namibia property was huge. The New Zealand ranch, not so much. About 12,000 acres. But it encompassed a lot of vertical terrain, giving the deer lots of escape cover.

So while I feel no need to be ashamed of anything I've done, now that I know what questions to ask I can say that I'd rather just stick to shooting ducks and geese, which I know for a fact are wild, than let myself be carted around to shoot some captive lion.

I see now what Die Ou Jagter meant. I've tried to be respectful of you in my posts believing everyone has a right to their own viewpoint and still feel that way. But you seem to have a narrow minded approach to anyone's view other than yours. Something tells me your list of friends is very short.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I guess running the engine and tooting the horn puts a whole new meaning on the phrase calling 'em in,

I once experienced a "hunt" for exotic game in a Western state. A pretty much "big time" editor of an outdoor magazine (who had invited me) and I were in the back seat of an open CJ7 the first morning leaving the bunkhouse to begin the hunt. In the little cargo space behind us stood a guy from the Northeast U.S., holding on to the roll bar. He was going to be dropped off somewhere to meet his guide or something. ... Anyway...

When we approached the first gate, the driver got out to open it, and made a bunch of noise with the chain that secured it. It was barely light and visibility was less than 100 yards.

As my host and I remained in the back and shot the bull, both of us noticed about 15 or so of some kind of goats running toward us (and the sound of the chain on the metal gate which apparently meant dinner).

The whole damn sky lit up with a trememdous BOOM!!! right over our heads. The guy in the back had shot over us and the guy at the gate and killed a goat.

No crap, he looked at us with eyes wide as saucers and said, "What was that and how much does it cost".

My hearing and that of my friend has never been the same.

Interesting, where the animals that we were supposed to hunt were located was about 5500 acres and wasn't so bad, but the idiot who shot did so in a holding pen of about two acres where some animals were being held (and fed?)for sale. He didn't ride with us anymore, btw.

Judge, you did not mention you hunted with toothdoc.

Hell if he'd been hunting with me his hearing would be completely gone...I shoot a ported 1895 Marlin GG 45/70.....isn't that what ultimate DG (bovine) killers use?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gail Selby:
I have seen video footage of 'canned lion hunts' and in many the lions do run towards the vehicle thinking they are going to be fed only to get a bullet. What happened to 'may the best man/lion win?' On a true lion hunt, chances are that you could come off second best - I thought that's part of the thrill of a true lion hunt.. Outwitting each other. Sorry, canned lion hunting is not for me..it's totally one sided. [/QUOTE

Gail could not agree with you more.
WELL SAID!!!

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:

quote:

Originally posted by Gail Selby:
I have seen video footage of 'canned lion hunts' and in many the lions do run towards the vehicle thinking they are going to be fed only to get a bullet. What happened to 'may the best man/lion win?' On a true lion hunt, chances are that you could come off second best - I thought that's part of the thrill of a true lion hunt.. Outwitting each other. Sorry, canned lion hunting is not for me..it's totally one sided.

Couldn't help to reply to this post!
Yes, Gail I've seen those same videos or the equals to them myself. I've also seen first hand some poorly run operations by the make a quick buck crowd but in all fairness I've also seen some well managed operations, Tam's comes first to mind an no one mentions them in the same breath as the shamers.
Comments like Steve's tooting of the horn do more to describe his personality than that of the well run operations such as Tam.
I don't walk one side of canned lion hunting or the other issue though I do walk the line that there is hunting for everyone. The choice is up to the individual if they can justify doing it so be it. I see no difference in buying PG and stocking them for the hunter than I do stocking lion...surely the mere fact one is "a lion" doesn't cut much with me both are planted to be killed.
Free range hunting is entirely different we all know that or at least should but without the stocked hunting ranches just how many traveling sportsmen would go on safari in a typical year? Not everyone can afford multiple trips after free range lion at $40,000 a pop.

Tam safaris are as canned as the next. They just have a larger pen to shoot them from. I watched Ms. Olivia Nalos Angelos shoot one of their peticured kitties and it was frankly disgusting! She and Peter in broad day light in open sight walked up to a lion resting under a shaded tree from several hundred yards away while it laid there looking at them. Of course she shoots it of the sticks from 100+ yards while it's laying in the shade looking at her. Although supprised as I am that it was by itself I'm sure its "pride" must have been off somewhere eating the Tam's game. The worst part was that Dangerous Game on versus aired this garbage as a lion hunt. Now Sandhurst Safaris on the other hand there legit. Ok seriously though De Klerk Safaris is legit right? Ok maybe not, but they have nice adds in African Sporting Gazette. Does that count???

Brett

I see getting rid of CATS is as painful as pulling teeth. Howdy Terrence....jorge

Some people are comparing canned lions with plains game hunting in South Africa.

And that is what I have feared, and mentioned right at the beginning of these discussion, as the ban was announced.

In fact, I got a message from someone who miunderstood my post and thought I am in support of "canned lion hunting"

Nothing is further from the truth!

The way to stop this practice is for us to do it through education, and orgenizations such as SCI so no trophies are accepted.

People who do shoot these lions know full well what they are getting into. I know, some claim that they have been offered the opportunity to shoot a problem animal.

I don't for one minute imagine they are THAT stupid and could not see what is actually happening.

I know I will get some flack for this, but here goes.

Canned lions hunting has only one purpose. And that is to satisfy the craving of the "bigger is better trophy" lot.

Those who wish to have an MGM lion displayed to brag about.

Leaving it for the government to do, after they have been forced by the anti-hunting brigade, is only going to open the door to further restrictions.

And I bet once this goes through, a new front is going to open on "captive bred" plains game animals.

It does not matter that farmers in South Africa are doing us all a favor and breeding these animals, some of which might be getting very rare in the wild.

Sable and roan are a couple of those that come to mind.

I have seen newspaper articles basically say "rare African animals are being bred in captivity in South Africa. To satisfy the craving of the blood trade. Rich American hunters pay up to $15,000 to kill one of these noble antelopes. Using their high powered rifles with telescopic sights. Capable of killing up to half a mile away"

It would be interesting to see what solution is suggested to deal with 3000 lions.

quote:

to deal with 3000 lions

Release them in NYC or LA late one night ...??

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gail Selby:
I have seen video footage of 'canned lion hunts' and in many the lions do run towards the vehicle thinking they are going to be fed only to get a bullet. What happened to 'may the best man/lion win?' On a true lion hunt, chances are that you could come off second best - I thought that's part of the thrill of a true lion hunt.. Outwitting each other. Sorry, canned lion hunting is not for me..it's totally one sided.

Couldn't help to reply to this post!
Yes, Gail I've seen those same videos or the equals to them myself. I've also seen first hand some poorly run operations by the make a quick buck crowd but in all fairness I've also seen some well managed operations, Tam's comes first to mind an no one mentions them in the same breath as the shamers.
Comments like Steve's tooting of the horn do more to describe his personality than that of the well run operations such as Tam.
I don't walk one side of canned lion hunting or the other issue though I do walk the line that there is hunting for everyone. The choice is up to the individual if they can justify doing it so be it. I see no difference in buying PG and stocking them for the hunter than I do stocking lion...surely the mere fact one is "a lion" doesn't cut much with me both are planted to be killed.
Free range hunting is entirely different we all know that or at least should but without the stocked hunting ranches just how many traveling sportsmen would go on safari in a typical year? Not everyone can afford multiple trips after free range lion at $40,000 a pop.[/QUOTE-If you think Tam is shining example of doing things right, then you obviously never saw the shows on Outdoor Channel where the Tam PH'S are guiding a client on a dangerous game hunt and they are UNARMED!!!

I get my imfo first hand in the field not by watching TV

Saeed I do not agree with any type of canned/fenced hunting though I do feel everyone has their own right to make a legal descison on the matter for themselves. I'm also in favor of putting an end to captive breeding programs for the purpose of stocking shooting ranches.
I suppose I'm one of the people you speak of when you refered to those whom don't see a difference in captive bred lion vs plains game. To me it is an industry that does exactly as you suggested, feeds someone's ego.