I have recently been re-reading Horn of the Hunter, the edition with Harry Selby's input.

A couple of questions come to mind.

Harry Selby mentions that at one time Ruark turned up with two rifles that formerly belonged to WDM Bell. A 7x57 bolt action and a 450/400 Jeffrey double rifle. Both had been fitted with plaques "to godson Mark Selby from godfather Robert C Ruark" or words to that effect.

We have seen pictures on this forum of the bolt gun but none of the double rifle.

One of the forum contributors appears to have connections with Mark Selby therefore it would be interesting to find out from Mark as to what happened to the double rifle.

There is also reference to an Australian Professional Hunter, Frank Bowman, yet an internet search reveals nothing of him Was this a "monicker" for another hunter (possibly Australian Bill Jenvey) or is he ficticious ???

John Mecom, the last I heard, had the 450/400. I believe there's a picture of the double in one of the NRA magazines but I'll have to look

Just found it.

http://www.americanrifleman.or...42-kwaherisafari.pdf

Enjoyed the article. Thanks.

BaxterB,
Can you post the second half of the story?
Regards,
Hollis

http://www.americanrifleman.or...aherisafaripart2.pdf

They left us hanging.

I had to look up the second part as well. Not sure how good my posting abilities are here.

msuri sana.

asanti sana bwana.

Perhaps it's current owner can be coerced into relaying the story of how he obtained it.

Would certainly be an interesting story.

I'm going to take an educated guess that Mecom was a client of Selby's - Harry, not necessarily Mark. Mecom is the former owner of the New Orlean Saints. I believe he was one of the first, if not the first franchisee of the NFL.

Thank you BaxterB and AilsaWheels.

It would be interesting to get the story from John or Mark Selby as it would be difficult to part with a memento such as this rifle.

Has anyone got contact with Messrs Mecom or Selby that can put this question to them.

The authors of Hemingway's guns could now set themselves on the trails of these famous doubles. It would certainly be interesting to see how Deaf Bank's 577 ended up with Mark Sullivan. The trail of Jim Corbett's 450/400 to Elmer Keith. How Sullivan's 577 ended up back with Westley Richards. I saw Mark Sullivan's reference to being offered John Hunter's 500.How did it end up in America ??? How Phil Percival's boxlock Rigby ended up at auction........ and where it went. Where did the Keith doubles come from ??? High grade guns where always expensive and never "thick on the ground" so there must be a reasonable chance of tracking them.

Where is John Dawkin's .450 NE Rigby ???? The one pictured in Taylor's book.

Where are Taylor's guns ??? Where did the Fletcher Jamieson guns go????

What happened to Harry Selby's .470 Rigby to render it irrepairable.......... and then what happened to the rifle later ???

Where is Ruark's .318 WR that he gave to Harry Selby after he got disillusioned with it's performance (from the forward to Horn of the Hunter).

Craig Boddington wrote an article on the .470 that Capstick wrote about owning/using. It had an interesting history if I recall correctly.

Did Capstick's .475 No 2 double ever surface ?. The one that was stolen from his vehicle, the one the Italian cabinet minister had owned.

Bill York wrote of having a very elaborately engraved and gold inlayed Holland .577 (?) that he gave to his brother. Where is that ???

Cal Pappas did a great job in his book on the .600 Nitro of telling the history of some of them including the Carl Larsen 120gn regulated .600.

Like a family history we should record these stories before everyone who knows them dies.

And please don't forget Frank Bowman.

But wait there's more !!

Harald Wolf, Safari times, also wrote about a double rifle that belonged to the Cottar family that would be worth hearing about in greater detail.

I posted several messages from Harry regarding his rifles years ago. You can find them using the search function. In one he addresses what happened to the 470, as well as some other stuff.

As to why someone might part with a rifle? Well, I would just leave it that they do, and the reasons are their own.

No doubt the life of a rifle is an interesting thing, but all the same, the little details are often lost to history.

quote:

Originally posted by twobobbwana:
High grade guns where always expensive and never "thick on the ground" so there must be a reasonable chance of tracking them.
.

In the days after independence in East Africa, high end firearms were fairly cheap. My father was offered Holland's Jeffery's etc. for a song. Whites were leaving for other commonwealth countries in droves and may have had no need for a .500, .577, .470, etc. in Brisbane, Auckland, Calgary or Durban. Also, some had little money and were selling possessions to generate cash to start a new life with.

Kenyan's with their life's possessions packed in their Landrover or on top of their Bedford were a common sight on the Great North Road heading to a white ruled Rhodesia or South Africa.(I wonder where they are now) They would offer to sell you possessions for petro. (Grapes of Wrath African style)

There was a gentleman who stayed with us a couple of times (my parents house in Tanzania) on his journeys, who made his living buying classic firearms. He would pick them up cheap from widows or people that needed the money. British ammo wasn't always available and people would trade their Wesley Richards double straight up for a M70 458 where they could get ammo.

I'm not trying to disagree with you, but in post colonial East Africa they seemed pretty cheap.


Wish my father had picked a few up. Oh yea, he didn't have any money either.

BaxterB & Ailsa,

Agreed. Everyone has their reasons at the time.

I suppose if selling a treasured firearm helped you eat or flee from a bad situation, along with your family, it'd just have to happen.

When the ammunition for these big bangers dried up ........... and as you said AW there's not many elephant to shoot in the non African/Indian colonies.........then these guns became "wall hangers" or real "cupboard queens".

Companies like Bell, Woodleigh and Bertram......along with alot of others......made these usable firearms again.........and their prices skirocketed again.

It's hard to reconcile the pains that are involved with forceably being removed from one's country of birth.......it's why I feel for my "Zimbo" mates.

AW I'll bet that gun trading gent that stayed with your folks has some stories.

I was in comms with Harry last year, but his health wasn't too good and I've lost touch. MAN Magnum magazine has done a write-up on the one rifle and may have more information. info@manmagnum.co.za . Maybe try and contact Gregor Woods through them.

On the subject of Bells rifles, there are plenty that we don't know the fate or whereabouts of....

- He purchased six Rigby .275 bore mausers for itself from 1910-1923, but have only ever seen his last purchased one.
- He had two .303 Metfords, have only seen one
- He had two .350 Rigby mausers, have not seen any
- He had two .416 Rigby mausers, have not seen any
- He had two .256 bore mannlicher rifles, have seen the Frazer carbine, but not the long barrelled Gibbs Bristol.
- He had a number 220 high powers, Ive not seen any
- He had a 'Broomhandle' mauser pistol he carried in Africa, I've not seen.
- He had a .450 Winchester BP, have not seen it.
- He had a Frazer Farq. single shot in .360, have not seen it.
- He had a Frazer falling-block .303 that the he first took to Africa-Mombassa, and used to kill lions for Uganda Rail,
...have not seen it.


but thats still not everything, there are some extras within the list below.........

Between March 1906 - September 1945, the Rigby books carry 34 pages of transactions with Bell.
Seventeen of those pages record the purchase of guns:

-- seven .275 Mausers (including one his father-in-law bought in 1921),
a .303, two .350s, two .416s and one .220 Hi-Power, all on Mauser actions;
a .303 Lee-Enfield sporter, a 12-bore Rigby ejector double, a Rigby single-shot .250 rook rifle,
a take-down .318 on a Springfield action, two more .220 Hi-Powers (one a Savage and the other a Winchester Model 1902 single-shot)
two Colts —a .22 rimfire Police Positive revolver and a Model 1911 .45 semiautomatic.
...of course add to all that his Thomas Bland .318wr SxS and Jeffrey .450 SxS

Evidently, there are numerous items of note from Bell that most people today have never known about or ever seen.
AND
Looking at how much Bell actually spent on quality firearms including Rigby shop ammunition & accessories,
shows that the tale often told on forums that he was a 'scrooge', is just complete nonsense coming from the mouths of clueless fools.
FURTHER,
when Bell hunted elephant on the Bangui River [French Equatorial Africa],
In order to better do so, he had a 35ft steam vessel built in England and shipped out in pieces to Africa for reassembly,
That does not at all sound like the cheap exercise of a supposed scrooge.

-- BTW--: its was on the thick vegetated islands of the Bangui river that Bell used his two .303 Metfords rifles to kill elephants in rapid manner.
Natives drove them toward Bell where he waited in a man-made clearing.
then as he emptied the magazine of his first .303, a handler would be waiting to pass him this other full mag. loaded .303

of other interest, The rifle Bell used in Alaska, he sold it off after deciding to join the Canadian Mounted heading for the Boer War.

Things I've learned about Bell's .275 and 450/400 Jeffrey.

My thanks to BaxterB, Ailsawheels, gunsmithing, georgegibbs505,Joe R, danlfraser, Joe Coogan and Harry Selby for their input which I have stolen and, hopefully, portrayed accurately.

Please forgive me and correct me if any of this information is incorrect. I'm here to help chronicle the path of these historic rifles from Bell's hands to their current (?) owners.

Any input is appreciated.

Bell died of a heart attack at his Scottish Estate in 1951, and his wife Katherine put the guns on consignment with Westley Richards soon after. His ship Trenchemer (http://www.aberdeenships.com/single.asp?index=101464) was also sold about this time.

Walter Dalrymple Maitland Bell was a member of the Bell's Whisky family.

Bell’s ashes are spread over the garden at his home “Corriemoillie” (www.corriemoille.com)

According to Rigby’s Bell bought a .275 Rigby bolt action (serial #4968) in September 1923 as part of a larger order for the Forbes Safari.

Ruark bought a .275 Rigby Mauser and a 450/.400 WJ Jeffrey double rifle from Westley Richards on 30th October, 1956. They were on the same invoice. Ruark paid 65 pounds for the .275.

At the time of the purchase Ruark had Rigby make, inscribe and affix plates inscribed “Mark R Selby from Uncle Bob Ruark” and later gifted them to Mark Selby, Harry’s son and Ruark’s godson.

Ruark used the 450/.400 to shoot his last elephant, over 100lbs, on their Kwaheri Safari (Karamoja region, North Uganda) in the late 50s. It was to be their, Selby and Ruark’s, last safari in Kenya as Selby was moving to Botswana and Ruark was becoming “politically unwelcome” in Kenya due to his writings principally “Something of Value”. (http://www.americanrifleman.org/webcontent/pdf/2009-7/200971484642-kwaherisafari.pdf)
(http://www.americanrifleman.org/Webcontent/pdf/2009-8/2009819105039-kwaherisafaripart2.pdf)

The rifle is a Model 2.

Harry Selby, American Rifleman, 15 September, 2010 -
“That’s right, Haraka,” Bob said. “You’re holding ‘Karamoja’ Bell’s .275 Rigby. I visited Westley Richards recently to order a .318 rifle, which you’ve always sung the praises of, and Malcolm Lyell, the boss man there, showed me two rifles, which had arrived the previous day—they were from Bell’s estate.

“The .275 Rigby you’re now holding and a double .450/400 by Jeffery. I bought both rifles on the spot for my godson, Mark.” Bob was referring to my son Mark, who was 4 years old at the time.

“He was anxious, as was I, to use the .275 Rigby as much as possible. The rifle was fitted with open sights, which featured a wide V rear sight with flip-up leaves, and a small-bead front sight. I realized we’d need to fit a scope to the rifle because Bob was not used to shooting with open sights, other than with big doubles at close range.”

“I had a Lyman Alaskan 2.5X scope, but no scope mounts were available in Nairobi, so I took the rifle and scope to Robert Triebel, one of the famous Triebel brothers, who was employed as a gunsmith in Nairobi, and an absolute artist working with metal. He crafted a mount high enough to allow the operation of the unaltered Mauser bolt handle, but also built in an aperture, through which open sights could be used. The arrangement worked well and proved to ring out the best of the rifle’s inherent accuracy. The job took some time, but fortunately it was ready by the time Bob’s safari was due to start.”

“We were both as excited as a pair of schoolboys about the Bell rifles and were surprised by the fact that the .275 was a takedown model. By flipping a catch the barrel and forward part of the fore-end unscrewed, but when in the locked position, it was totally rigid—a very neat arrangement. There were a couple of threaded holes on the side of the Mauser action where, presumably, Bell had fitted a scope at some time, perhaps as he grew older, in order to hunt stag back in his native Scotland

Mark eventually decided to dispose of the Rigby .275 through Holland & Holland of London, and we lost all trace of it for nearly 20 years until quite recently when someone phoned Joe Coogan to say that he currently owned the rifle and wished to sell it. Mike Evans now owns “Karamoja” Bell’s Rigby .275, and he brought it back to Botswana to use on safari in 2009. (http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2010/9/15/karamoja-bells-275-rigby/)

Gail Selby, Harry’s daughter, used the .275 Rigby to shoot her first elephant , a 50 pounder, when she was 14.

Both the .275 and 450/.400 were sold. The .275 in 1983.

The .275 is presently owned by a collector in West Virginia (the same collector owns the Selous Farquason) who bought it in a gunshop in Ohio . The rifle had been stored in a vault for 24 years.

At one time AccurateReloading forum member, danlfraser owned it (13 May, 2007). and the 450/.400 is/was owned by John Mecom, once an owner of New Orlean Saints NFL team and possibly a client of Harry Selby’s.

And he paid 148 /10 for the JEffrey. Of note is that the 275 rifle was sold with 140 gr bullet cartridges. no solids (or heavier bullets) were mentioned at the time.

Thanks for the amalgamation of information.

Interesting reading gentlemen.

Thank you BaxterB.

AilsaWheels I've often wondered about the journey of these great rifles, like the one's I mentioned in the original posting, and what their respective "fates" were.

I know I wouldn't be the only one "in this boat" therefore if I can contribute to uncovering and documenting their histories then it has been a worthwhile exercise.

Now we need the current owners to tell the stories of how they ended up with them thereby removing any doubt/conjecture. Perhaps some photos to accompany the yarn.

I think the collective knowledge on this website is phenomenal. Just consider that as part of this "curiousity" we've also uncovered Pondoro's .450, Bell's .318 and Selous' Farquason. Perhaps common knowledge to a few but now shared with the appreciative many.

Perhaps the authors of "Hemingway's guns" can take this up and produce a book. They did a fantastic job on that book.

quote:

AilsaWheels I've often wondered about the journey of these great rifles, like the one's I mentioned in the original posting, and what their respective "fates" were.

This very question (and the Bell 275 in particular) is what led me to becoming acquainted with Harry Selby - and moreso his daughter Gail - over the past decade. The idea I had then was but rudimentary, but with the power of the Internet, it may just see its day.

BaxterB,

If I have played even a small part in solving this mystery then I'm chuffed.

Now what about the stories of that Taylor .450 ??? Gunsmithing's .318 Bland or perhaps the Selous Farquason.

There is a dvd available, produced by the owner, of some of the famous guns being put back to "work". That may solve a lot of the questions we have..........the gent who owns those guns would be worth interviewing.

Bill Jones is the gent of which I speak.

http://www.safaripress.com/His...productinfo/DVD9928/

When I have some beer money to redirect I will purchase Mr Jones DVD.

quote:

Originally posted by twobobbwana:

According to Rigby’s Bell bought a .275 Rigby bolt action (serial #4968) in September 1923 as part of a larger order for the Forbes Safari.

Ruark bought a .275 Rigby Mauser and a 450/.400 WJ Jeffrey double rifle from Westley Richards on 30th October, 1956. They were on the same invoice.

The rifle is a Model 2.

Some people have claimed that .275 in question is the one used by Bell to slay a mass of elephants.
its purchase yr of 1923 spreads much doubt to that claim.

Most of his elephant killing tally & time was prior to outbreak of WW1, being the period when he hunted the Karamojo, Lado Enclave,
Belgian and French Congo, the Ivory Coast, Liberia, Uganda, Abyssinia and the East Africa Coast.

and its my understanding that 1923 purchase .275 rifle was a #1 not a #2,
Rigby catalogue rifle.


Rifle 1 (1910) No:2 .275 for 140gn.

Rifle 2 (1910) No:2 .275 for 140gn.

Rifle 3 (1911) No.2 .275 with sight for 173gn.

Rifle 4 (1912) No:2 .275 with sight for 173gn.

Rifle 5 (1922) No:2 .275 with sight for 173gn.

Rifle 6 (1923) No:1 specifically built for 173gn.


THE only diff. between #1 and #2 models is sight regulation, #2 being regulated for 140 HV.

chamber/throat dimension remain identical for both models,{ i.e. orig. standard 7x57 Mauser spec.}

Both #1 and #2 rifles could each safely fire both 173gn DWM solids and commercial .275 HV 140gn softs, interchangeably.

Trax,

You are correct. I added the serial number to the reference due to it's scope.

My mistake was in the comments about Bell ordering later .275s with scopes.

However Harry Selby states that it had had a scope mounted to it previously.....he got the scope mounted in Nairobi as no suitable mounts were available.

I've also been searching Fletcher Jamieson's rifles and I come up with the following references:

http://gametrails.org/rifles-o...-ii-by-john-mattera/

It deals with FJ's .500.

And the following reference:

http://gametrails.org/rifles-o...end-by-john-mattera/

deals with Hemingway's .577

There is also reference regarding Elmer Keith's/Jim Corbett's 450/.400 being bought by the same fella that bought Ernesto's .577.

Therefore Bill Jones is the man we need to talk too.

Another interesting conversation could be had with Logan B Reed who owns/owned Fletcher Jamieson's Holland.

http://www.americanrifleman.or...lland-holland-royal/

Bill Jones I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that I need your dvd more than I need beer !!!!!.......and that's "bold talk" for an Australian.

quote:

However Harry Selby states that it had had a scope mounted to it previously.

Previous to when? There was no scope mounted to it previous to Ruark buying it. Selby had the Alaskan mounted to it.

quote:

Therefore Bill Jones is the man we need to talk too.

Frankly, and if you've read enough Hemingway, the 577 was an aberration for him. I do not believe he cherished it the way we seem to cherish it because it was his. The real prize gun-wise for Hemingway is the Springfield, period. Where that thing is, who knows...

Trax,

Not to be argumentative if the .275 was a #1 and, as you say, "THE only diff. between #1 and #2 models is sight regulation, #2 being regulated for 140 HV." then it is strange that the ammo sold with it was 140gn ammo.

Granted, however, that as you say "Both #1 and #2 rifles could each safely fire both 173gn DWM solids and commercial .275 HV 140gn softs, interchangeably."

Not arguing............just discussing.

BaxterB,

In Bwana Haraka's words "There were a couple of threaded holes on the side of the Mauser action where, presumably, Bell had fitted a scope at some time, perhaps as he grew older, in order to hunt stag back in his native Scotland." http://www.americanrifleman.or...oja-bells-275-rigby/

Perhaps there was no scope fitted to the rifle when Ruark bought it but there had been previously ???????????????

Once again I'm just throwing it out there for discussion in order to reveal the facts....I concede that you'd be far better "read" on the topic than I.

Yep Hemmingway seemed to talk of his Springfield and Mannlicher more than the .577.

I think the .577 was part of the Bwana image that old Ernesto wished to portray.

Can't understand how old Phil Percival allowed him to bang away at rhino, at distance, with the Springfield.

Wonder if Percival was watching on with the boxlock Rigby .470 while he was giving the rhino a "dose of Springfield".

quote:

Cal Pappas did a great job in his book on the .600 Nitro of telling the history of some of them including the Carl Larsen 120gn regulated .600.

That .600 is in the hand of an good friend of me. I had written an article close to 30 pages about ist history and his owners... It is going in print in the next time...

quote:

Originally posted by twobobbwana:

Not to be argumentative if the .275 was a #1 and, as you say,
"THE only diff. between #1 and #2 models is sight regulation, #2 being regulated for 140 HV."
then it is strange that the ammo sold with it was 140gn ammo.

Bell used both softs and solids in his 6.5 Mannlichers, so why not also with his .275 rifles ...??
Reknown for using 173gn DWM solids on DG, but I've never read anything to say
he didnt use .275 bore softs for lesser African game.

Bells first (5) .275 bore Rigbys were #2 HV models[regulated for 140] , but he definitely fired 173gn solid
through the #2s he used for DG, especially since 3 of them had additional sights for 173gn.

--We also don't know at the time of his 1923 .275 bore purchase,
if he still had one of his previous 'dual sight' purchase .275 bores, ...maybe the 1922 purchase .275?
quite possible.
Bell in the past had various pairs of rifles in matching calibre, {including Metfords,Mannlichers, mauser .350s, mauser .416s}
Like his other matching calibres, its not unreasonable to think he typically planned as a hunter to have at least two .275 mausers
on hand on safari.
...the 140 softs he purchased could have been for an already owned .275 rifle, and not the latest 1923 purchase one.

Bell also purchased many accessories from Rigby, so who's to say at some point he didn't fit aperture sights to his #1 or #2 .275s
so he could have a rifle in his hand regulated for both solids and softs.
_
Or if Altering regulation of a rifle was required, likely not a problem for Bell, cause I believe Bell at times took to regulating his own rifles,
and had personal experience in helping his friend Daniel Frazer, regulate big bore doubles.

Rifles 3,4,5 below, are factory #2 versions[regulated for 140], but had additional sight for 173gn

Rifle 1 (1910) No:2 .275 for 140gn.

Rifle 2 (1910) No:2 .275 for 140gn.

Rifle 3 (1911) No.2 .275 with sight for 173gn.

Rifle 4 (1912) No:2 .275 with sight for 173gn.

Rifle 5 (1922) No:2 .275 with sight for 173gn.

Rifle 6 (1923) No:1 specifically built for 173gn.

Bockhunter,

That's great about Larsen's .600. I think I saw mention of it being for sale some time ago.

What made it noticeable was the 120gn regulation.

I'd made it's sale known to Cal Pappas along with a mention in William Yorks (???) book about encountering a boat captain (??) Carl Larsen and wondered if he was the same fellow.

Looking forward to seeing the writeup.

Dennis Finch-Hatton's double also sold a while ago and gained mention on this website.