Stemming from a current discussion on Nitroexpress.com:
- what client firearms handling particularly scares you?
- what proportion of clients display potentially dangerous firearms handling?
- do you think double rifles are more dangerous in the hands of clients when compared to bolt actions because doubles cannot easily be carried chamber empty?
- have you heard of clients shooting PHs or staff?
- how many accidental discharges do you witness each season?
- how many accidental discharges have you been responsible for?

I've been scared spitless by guides (not in Africa) and I reckon it must be much worse for you guys.

mike

Perhaps I should be crossing my fingers as I write this - but I haven't had a client have an A/D for many years......and personally, I've never had one.

As for general dangerous firearms handling the only time I've witnessed it has been with the very occasional mid European client and then they have realised their mistakes immediatly and then apologised and it's never happened a second time.

I'd say that if anything, most double rifle owners are probably more aware of safety issues than many bolt action rifle owners.......by the time most people can afford a double rifle or are inclined to acquire one they're pretty experienced and more aware of the safety issues and I guess the same statement would apply to people who can afford to hunt Africa.

Clients who are not hunters but trophy collectors are often too casual about safety but with a modicum of tact (wich I don't have much of) it is usually possible to keep things safe.

Know 3 PH shot by clients.

What really scares me are the council game scouts invarably armed with 12g Shotguns or some of our new game scouts forced upon us from the malitia armed with AK's. Some total of training - 4 rounds. Some total of bush experience - nill (come from the town slums mostly).

Have resorted to quietly cutting the front off the shell in the game scouts shotgun and tipping the shot out before today. A wad in the back I can survive.

quote:

Originally posted by AussieMike:
- do you think double rifles are more dangerous in the hands of clients when compared to bolt actions because doubles cannot easily be carried chamber empty?

HUH?

I don't have a double rifle, but I have had several side by side and over/under shotguns. I have carried them for miles of Kansas prairie and brushlands chasing quail and pheasant.

While it is difficult to carry them empty (and get a shot off quickly enough), it is DEAD easy to carry them loaded and open, where it takes but seconds to close them and flick the safety off on their way to the shoulder.

A loaded, open double gun or rifle may as well be empty from the point of view of safety.

Steve is dead on with the double clientelle. I have never had any clients with terrible habits re safety issues, but I have had a few that I have had to remind to unload the chamber at the end of the day (I allow no loaded arms in camp). Only one accidental discharge so far, scared the hell out of me and the tracker (the tracker needed it, he was horrible) but luckily it was a freind of mine, so we could laugh it off. (And don't worry, your secret is still safe!).

Ganyana,
I think you are right on.
My PH & I had the conversation, I made the comment"Must be kinda spooky every time you turn around there is some guy right behind you with a loaded rifle that might be pointed your direction." His answer was "The clients aren't scary it is them" pointing at the game scout with the AK.

Mike

In Australia it is considered bad manners in the extreme to carry your rifle cocked and loaded with the safety ON.It is the custom to have your rifle either with an empty chamber till needed or a round in the chamber with the bolt raised.When I went to Africa I found it very unnerving to see the very experienced PH toss his rifle into the rack of the truck cocked,loaded and safety ON.Last time in Zim the PH took me asided and gave a polite talking too about making sure the rifle was cocked and loaded with the safety ON rather than as we Aussie's prefer(NB we were not hunting dangerous game).I had never bothered to consider a rifles safety till going to Africa because Aussie shooters don't -by and large-use them!

Have you gentlemen found hunters from one country "safer" than another.
Also in Africa or Australia are the mandatory gun saftey classes before a hunting permit is issued like in USA?

Firstly, I am not a PH. However, while hunting in '99 in Zim we had another hunter that we didn't know in camp with us. He decided it was a good idea to take the load off the firing pin spring of his 375 in his tent one evening. Thing is he didn't take the last round out of the chamber first. We were all sitting in the boma around a nice mopani wood fire next to the tent. Scared the hell out of us. At first the PH thought it might be a suicide. The hunter had lost several head of game in the first three days of the hunt. I was really mad. My son was hunting with us. He could have whacked my boy and I could still be doing time in a Zimbabwe prison. Take care and don't do anything stupid!!

There are two reasons for the rifle loaded, safety on.
1) When something goes wrong in the bush it is invarably from too close for comfort. Most pro guides used to be taught to carry their rifles with an empty chamber. On average it takes 3 seconds to swing a rifle from the trail, chamber a round and get off the first shot. Sadly buffalo do not start their charge from more than 50m usually. Same problem with ele and lion are worse. If it isn't loaded when the fun starts you might as well have a knife instead of a rifle- actually a rifle makes a reasonable club... To be fair, ele usually give a fair ammount of warning giving you time to load if you act on the first warning, as do lion, but buff never.
2) Most of us grew up in a country at war. All rifles are always loaded and safety catch on. The only time I unloaded my rifle between the ages of 12 and 23 was to clean it. If you know every firearm you see is loaded, you don't make mistakes thinking they aren't.

At our operation here in Texas, we have a simple policy and it is stated in writing. ANY unsafe gun handling ends the hunt on the spot, period.

What characterizes "unsafe"?

Easy: any handling of a weapon that could result in either the client, guide, or anybody immediate to the area getting shot. Common sense in other words is the order of the day. Waive the muzzle of your weapon in my direction and you are gone!

I understand that our hunts are nil in cost compared to that of most PH's in Africa, so it's easier for us to call it off. But, there are a lot of folks that have the money, not the know-how to go hunting....ALL OF YOU PLEASE BE CAREFUL OUT THERE, safe hunting!

Jeff

Traditionally on the Hill in Scotland, the Stalker carries the Clients rifle cased and unloaded untill they get to the approriate place. At this point the rifle was loaded and passed to the client for a shot. A situation a world away from what Ganyana is taking about and it probably owes its roots to trying to keep your rifle dry in the days of BP...

Today most stalkers carry there rifles loaded with the safety on, except in a vechicle or climbing into a highseat..

My advice would be talk to your PH first and see what he recommends and why..if you don't feel happy with his advice tell him and discuss the situation until you are both happy...

Regards,

Pete

I think that the preference for loaded rifles is primarily in those areas in which dangerous animals may be encountered at any time at close range. In RSA, it has been my experience that the Australian method is used. I is also my preference because I don't trust safeties. I like to load, shoot until down and out, and unload right after "all safe" is declared.

Kudude

Mike

Not a PH but some comments from them over time

- have you heard of clients shooting PHs or staff?
A PH I hunted with had a scar on the top of his scalp from having his hat shot off from behind by a client.

- what client firearms handling particularly scares you?
This isn't a one way street, PHs are not necessariy perfect. The same PH insisted I keep my rifle loaded with the bolt closed even when travelling in the vehicle. I was paranoid about it going off and shooting through the roof and killing a tracker standing behind the cab. The angle was pretty right. So held it forward and usually opened the bolt.

quote:

In Australia it is considered bad manners in the extreme to carry your rifle cocked and loaded with the safety ON.It is the custom to have your rifle either with an empty chamber till needed or a round in the chamber with the bolt raised.When I went to Africa I found it very unnerving to see the very experienced PH toss his rifle into the rack of the truck cocked,loaded and safety ON.Last time in Zim the PH took me asided and gave a polite talking too about making sure the rifle was cocked and loaded with the safety ON rather than as we Aussie's prefer(NB we were not hunting dangerous game).I had never bothered to consider a rifles safety till going to Africa because Aussie shooters don't -by and large-use them!

That's quite a generalisation. Most hunters I know always carry their rifles loaded and cocked with the safety on when hunting. Especially if deer hunting.

I'm one of the people who has seen it work both ways. I would not handle a rifle they way I've seen some PH's and game scouts handle firearms and on one occassion thought the PH shooting in the direction of a hunting partner with a shotgun full of OObuck was careless to the extreme. Gun safety applies to all and if your PH or game scout aren't following safe procedures I recommend you speak up in a mannerly way and let them know you're not comfortable with unsafe practices. If you only save your life once it's worth the effort.

I guess I'm lucky in that my preference and my PH's preference are identical: before you start hunting, whether in the vehicle or on foot, load the chamber and put the safety on. As long as the rifle is in my hands, that's the way it stays. If I rack it or case it, or when I get back to camp at the end of the day, then I unload the chamber and decock it, but the magazine stays full.

As Ganyana says, the only safe mindset is that ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED.