Ladies and Gents: Since my next planned hunt is for leopard (yes,I know I just got back, but what can I tell you, it's a disease and I have it bad!), my preliminary decision is to use my Custom 338 Model 70 (because my lovely wife gave it to me) with 250 or 210gr Partitions. I haven't decided yet.

In any case, I've been studying a lot on the subject at hand and based on the many, many videos I've seen, books, magazines, posts here and speaking personally with a few PHs, it seems to me that cats are really succeptible to a high velocity rounds. For those of you that own some of the Sullivan videos for example, the most dramatic kills I saw on lion and also leopard were with a 30/378 and 378 Weatherbys, and the least impressive were with larger slower calibers like the 416 Rigby for example. Purely anectdotal surely. So assuming of course proper shot placement and Weatherby prejudice aside, do you folks share the same ir similar view? jorge

If I were hunting a cat and NOT any massive game (i.e., no buffalo, giraffe, eland, elephant, hippo), then for the cat it might best to have a fairly large premium bullet (such as the North Fork soft http://www.northforkbullets.com) going 2700 to 3000 fps. Given that I was able to get 2730 fps from a 26" .338 Win Mag with 250 grain Sierras, you could probably come up with a good load for your .338 and not risk any Weatherby prejudice.

If I were going to follow a wounded cat, I would want a fast handling double rifle, such as a 9.3 x 74R.

I think raqpid kills on Leopard might be a function of rapid expansion of the bullet. I doubt if the 416 gave rapid expansion in leopard where you cam be pretty sure the two WBY mags did. When I hunted leopard in 2004 [did not get a male in a tree, thus no shots fired].
When I try again in March 2006 I will be using the same rifle, my Chapuis 9,3x74R double rifle with a Swarovski 1.5-6x42 with the illuminated circle dot reticle.
I will have a 285 grain Hawk with the .032 jkt.
This bullet has given me a higher percentage of drop th the shot kills than any other. All the impala I shot with this bullet were DRT.[Dead Right there]. Several wild pigs up to 275 lbs have also droped to the shot.
This bullet gives very rapid expansion and still has good penetration. In the left bbl I will have a 286 Woodleigh Soft.
Should a follow up be necessary I would have 2 Woodleighs in the 9,3 or if they bring up the truck maybe my 450 No2 with 480 Woodleighs.

I think a scoped 9,3x74R double rifle is the BEST rifle on the planet for a leopard.
I plan on using it for lion as well,with a 286 Woodleigh Soft in the right and a 286 Nosler Partition in the left.
I also always have a "few" 286 gr Woodleigh Solids, just in case an elephant tries to get in the blind with us.
One of the advantages of a double is I can change loads in total silence.

jorge,

I personally think taking out both lungs and/or heart is the key. I kiiled a leopard with a 338WM using 250 TBBC and a broadside shot. It came out of the tree like a sack of meal and never moved. I don't believe through the ribs it could have expanded fully. I shot another in the front of the chest with a 250 NP from a 338 Dakota, the bullet travelled the length of the body diagonally and exited. The leopard somesaulted out of the tree and thrashed around for perhaps 20 seconds. We found it dead 40 feet from the tree. My last leopard and largest was taken where the neck and shoulder meet and once again the bullet traveled diagonaly through the body. This was with a 375H&H with the 300 gr TBBC in the Federal loading. The leopard never moved after the impact, died in the tree and no I did not hit the spine.

The above conclusively proves nothing with exception of a good hit being fatal. I think your 338 WM will be perfect with either NP bullet as long as you make a good hit which I'm sure you will.

Good luck with Mr. Spots he is a very special trophy. I'll be trying for my 4th in '07.

Regards,

Mark

Jorge,

Jorge,
Sorry for the blank response the electrons were disrupted. I think regarding Leopards you should plan on one shot kills and double lung/heart is probably the best shot if presented. I shot one with a .375 RUM with 270 gr. soft point broad side and dropped it. I also shot one facing me and like Mark the bullet went the length of the cat and exited throug the hip. The RUM is going around 2800 ft/sec. so expansion and expanding bullets help.
You should have no problem with what you propose
especially keeping you wife buying you hunting rifles. It is a heavy burden to bear.
Robert

Jorge,

I agree with R Jr..That 338 with 210/225 gr. bullet will do the work front or back shot side shot the bullet will take all the fight out of chui...

Mike

jorge
I also ment to say in my post thet either bullet in the 338 would be about as good as it gets in a bolt rifle for leopard.

retreever, are you comming to the next DSC?

Jorge,

A good friend of mine who has taken the Big 5 and been on 20 safaris has the same opinion as you with the High Velocity on cats. I do not know how many leopards he has killed but he has three mounts in his home. I know he shot one last year in Tanzania with a 338 RUM. He also swears by Ballistic Tip on leopard. He uses TBBC or Partition for most Plains Game but always works up a BT load for leopard. I believe he shot his Lion with the 338 RUM and the TBBC or Partition.

Mike

I would second the vote for the balistic tip. I had to shoot one on the ground with a 210gr bal tip in .338 RUM and it really never moved. I shot one last year with a .375 RUM with a 300 gr X-bullet and it didn't do any better job than the 210.

Here is vote #3 for the Ballistic Tip. Ideally I would want something that does as much internal damage as possible and does not exit so as to preserve the hide.

Jorge,
Where are you planning on going for leopard?

I have used the .375 H&H Mag. with 272 grain Hirtenberger ABC bullets at 2,700 fps, and a .338 Win. Mag. with 225 grain X-bullets at 2,800 fps. Both worked very well.

I am leaving in 3 weeks for Leopard in Zim and I am taking my Mod 70 with 338 225 gr accubonds. I will let you know how they do if we see one.

In my experience, high-velocity kills cats very quickly, but I wouldn't use any sort of tin-foil bullet just for leopard. Select a single premium hunting bullet -- the same that you'd use on everything from impala to eland -- and you'll be in good shape for leopard as well.

If I were headed to Africa tomorrow for a John Sharp plainsgame and leopard safari and wanted to use my 338 Win. Mag., I take just one load: 250 gr. Nosler Partitions loaded to 2735 fps. This is the same load I'd used if I could have only ONE 338 Win. Mag. load with which to hunt all of the world's big game, if necessary. This only has to be as complicated as you want to make it!

And that's my biggest criticism of Robertson's "Perfect Shot", et al. If you followed such advice to the letter, driving yourself deeper into depravity with each turn of the page, and picked THE single-best rifle/cartridge/bullet combo for all listed species, you'd have to have a golf cart full of rifles and a steamer trunk full of ammo -- plus have EXACTLY the right ammo and gun within instant reach at all times -- in order for everything to be "optimal".

To me, "optimal" means putting a premium bullet in the right spot, and to heck with the exact cartridge and bullet. DO use an adequate cartridge, and DO use a premium bullet, but it really doesn't matter if it's a 300 Wby. you're using instead of a 338 Win., nor does it matter if the bullet is a Swift A-Frame instead of a Nolser Partition. They're all GOOD!

Tin-foil bullets, however, are not good......

Keep everything SIMPLE

AD

Thanks for all the replies gents. Like Allen I keep things simple, I'll probably use the 250 Partitions. I just got back from the range and fired two really nice groups. The 250 Hornadys were under .5"s and the Partitions right at 1". Harris, I'll be hunting with the same PH I always use, John Sharp. If you go to his website (http://www.john-sharp-safaris.com) you'll see some really nice cats. But you know, that 340 Weatherby Accumark is also calling my name.....jorge

You always strive to kill with the first shot on any big game but it is even more important on a leopard so your heading in the right direction. They are not very thick through the chest, even less so then a whitetail buck so a quick expanding bullet is desirable but it should be tough enough to break the spine or shoulders if encountered. I'm a little blazee about caliber and think that anything from the 30-06 up will work just fine with a good bullet. A Baliatic Tip or possibly an Accubond would be my choice. Just place the first one exactly right. Pick a spot and hit it. Your PH will bless you if you do. If a follow up is necessary a double rifle would be my choice as I can't see being able to work a bolt in time as they are so quick. Ganyana says he likes a FN-Fal for a follow up. Never thought of that but it sure makes sense to me.

465H&H

465H&H

I think, in fact I know, the 210 Nosler is a devastating Leopard load in the .338 Win. but a Leopard can be dispatched easily enough with a 250-3000. He is a light boned small animal much the same as a deer or antelope...

A Lion is a whole nuther planet IMO, I would say the 250 Nosler in a .338 is bare minimum, but I down want bare minimum in a lion gun, prefering bare maximum, the same calibers that I would use on elephant or Buffalo, starting with a 416 Rem and goin up, not down...Lions have absolutly all my respect and I wanna be armed well when I pick a fight with one..they just make to much noise when mad!

As Ray has stated,Leopards arent hard to kill with any modern high velocity round that will open up on a deer sized body. The trick is to kill it before it reaches the ground, because the Leopard is the #1 animal that tops the list on injuries per P.H. So i say use the biggest dam caliber you can shoot staight and make sure the bullets open up quckly, all of the new bonded bullets should do a wonderfull job on Mr. Spots. I prefer a .300 Wby,180 grain Barnes at 3150 , or my .375 with 235 grain Speers at 2800 fps ,the later will literaly blow them out of the tree dead in the air and hit with a resounding silent thump, end of hunt no follow up. Remember your P.H. if he's worth his salt will have to confifm him being dead and thats when a 12 ga.,shaking hands,and high grass come into play. When it comes to Lion over bait,the .416 should be a min. caliber as far as i am concerned, the .458's or larger with the right bullets will show much better results. Big males can soak up alot of energy and take a long time to die especialy if you hear him roar, and cant see him ( thats double time folks)so make sure your first one is one the money. Good hunting. Charlie

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Thanks for all the replies gents. Like Allen I keep things simple, I'll probably use the 250 Partitions. I just got back from the range and fired two really nice groups. The 250 Hornadys were under .5"s and the Partitions right at 1". Harris, I'll be hunting with the same PH I always use, John Sharp. If you go to his website (http://www.john-sharp-safaris.com) you'll see some really nice cats. But you know, that 340 Weatherby Accumark is also calling my name.....jorge

Jorge, Something tells me you are really looking at that 340 weatherby pretty hard! You go for it!

Jorge, The 338 will put you in good shape for allowing the next by your wife!

However, It makes little difference which you use to the Leopard, as long as you put that bullet on the right spot!

Andrew Dawson is one of the most successful Leoaprd PHs in Africa, and he says the caliber is not as important as the proper scope! Anything from 270Win to 375 H&H will do the job if the shooter does his part! Dawson's favorite is the plain jane 30-06 with a 180 gr Nosler Partition. Placed in the right spot, it will settle Chui's hash without blowing a hole you can stick your leg through on the off side!

NOW! If you don't place the first one right, you better dig out your "PHC Leopard kit" and some chain male shirt, and pants!

Mac: Just ordered a Leupie with an illuminated reticle... jorge

The 250 gr. .338 Nosler is a very tough bullet and will not open up much on a Leopard..I would definately go with the 210 Nosler which BTW will penetrate as deep as a 250 gr. Nosler for some strange reason, must be the higher velocity. I have used the .338 extensively in Africa and I assure you the 250 gr. Nosler is not the bullet for Leopard or smaller plainsgame if you want a quick kill....I use the 250 gr. Nosler on plainsgame for camp meat for that very reason, they don't open up and they don't bruise meat...They do work great on Eland, Wildebeest etc.

Ray: My rifle absolutely loves 250gr Hornadys. What do you think about those? they should open up well. I guess I need to trytthe 210s also. thanks, jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Mac: Just ordered a Leupie with an illuminated reticle... jorge

I have several lighted scopes, but I've been thinking about ordering a Loupie 1.5-5X20 with the No4 German reticle, and a lighted apex. They are special order, and may take a while to get. I want to get JJ to install QD rings, and bases on my 9.3X74R Merkel double rifle, so I can use it in a leopard blind!

I'm thinking that will be my next, and maybe last hunt in Africa. I want to take a Leopard, and two more buffalo, with the only plains game being baits, on a 14 day hunt. Do the whole hunt with the African PAIR A pair of Merkel double rifles, the 470NE Safari,with express sights, and the 9.3X74R with QD scope, and express sights.

Good luck on old spots!

Mac: I ordered the German 4 also. It'll be here tomorrow. Unfortunately m hunt is still far away. June of 08. jorge

Jorge,

I have the 2.5/10 50mm bell in variX III with 30tube and illuminated with the German $ and fine red dot...It ws on the 338 my son Matt shot at the rifle range behind camp...It is by far the best aiming scope I have owned...the red dot draws your eye to it...
I do not like the 20 mm Leupold to me it is to small for light and I cracked the front lens twice now with the Lott...

Mike

Thanks Mike. I'll give you guys a report after I gt it. Regarding the 200mm lens, I just did the math and for an 80 yard shot with the scope set at 4X the 20mm lens will give me a 5mm exit pupil which is more light transmission that my 50 year old eyes can absorb anyway. On you Lott, where was the front ring placed in relation to the lens? I spoke to Leupold about that and the tendency according to them is for fols to place the rings directly where the lens are, and that leads to the cracking problems. I don't think I'll have that problem with the 338. jorge

On the Ruger there is no more room for movement to slide the scope forward...on the Ruger...The ring is the location of the lens and the scope rings go right behind it with very little movement to get it forward...

Mike

Mike: I As you know I have the same rifle in 416. I use Warne QD rings and they allow me to place the foreward ring just behind whee the front lens is and it still gives me about 1/4" clearance between the power ring on the scope and the aft mounting ring. Over 500 rounds through it with no problems. Granted a 416 is not a 458 Lott! jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Mac: I ordered the German 4 also. It'll be here tomorrow. Unfortunately m hunt is still far away. June of 08. jorge

How long did it take to get it Jorge?

MacD: Two days. 498.00 bucks delivered. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
Jorge,

I have the 2.5/10 50mm bell in variX III with 30tube and illuminated with the German $ and fine red dot...It ws on the 338 my son Matt shot at the rifle range behind camp...It is by far the best aiming scope I have owned...the red dot draws your eye to it...
I do not like the 20 mm Leupold to me it is to small for light and I cracked the front lens twice now with the Lott...

Mike

Hey Mike, how close is your front ring to the front lens? I have had a 1.5-5X20 on a 458LOTT for six years without problem! I did crack a lens on one by haveing the front ring too close to the front lens on a Ruger No1 375 H&H tropical. I saw it crack when I tightened the front ring!

Contrary to popular belief, 30mm tubed scopes gather no more light than a 20mm tubed scope, in this case they both have a 5mm exit pupil, and the human eye can handle no more light than a 5mm exit pupil provides. If exit pupils are equal, then brightness is only enhanced by quality of lens grinding, and lens coating,and somewhat by the large objective bell, not tube size! OR................at least that is what I've been told!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
MacD: Two days. 498.00 bucks delivered. jorge

Hey that's great, and less than the $550 I was quoted! I think I'll order mine today! Thank's

Good luck on your hunt!