Gents,

Just a short note to let you know that a very historic firearm will be offered for auction by Holt's on 23 September.

I'm referring to Lot 799 and it a .461 No 1 Gibbs-Farquharson falling-block originally owned by the great Frederick Courtenay Selous.

It would be interesting to see how far off the estimate of 20 - 25 000 pounds turns out to be after the hammer has fallen.

I got one hell of a lot less than that when I 'sold' the rifle through Holts 4 years back...they actually sold it below the reserve price and I still hold the providence and Photo's linking it to Johannes Colenbrander and thence Selous - I didn't hand it over becuase conditions were not met but I couldn't get the gun back to Zim

If the new buyer frequents these forums...I am open to negotiation....After all- I got it from Colenbranders grandaughter as a present for trying to rescue her son (killed by North Koreans/5th Brigade) But I went down to the compound to try and help, and we actually got him out alive but he died in the truck on the way to the hospital

I fired that rifle with period and reloaded ammo while it was in my possession briefly before being shipped to Holts for sale. It was still accurate enough to have hunted with it and I still have some of the original ammo that came with the gun.

Perry

Ok, I'm confused!

Who's gun is this? Ganyana?

I reckon it is in the UK at this point?

Am I tracking here?

JW

I owned the rifle for many years. Holts talked me into seling it and PWN lugged it out of Zim for me.

It was sold for less than the reserve price and I was caught flat footed because I couldn't be contacted to reject the offer and and by the time I got out of he bush it was a done deal...

However, I was pissed and kept several of the key bits of Evidence...John Ormiston (who bought it on the Holts sale) has never contacted me...although he stayed in my house and borrowed it for a 'clasic oxwaggon safari' and used it to shoot a warthog and an implala...he surely knows where to find me! Maybe he has managed to dig up more provinence for the rifle in the UK...not that hard. The Gibbs records were destroyed in WWII but Beasley, who fitted the sideplates records are still in existence..and he only did that style plate for three men....Bell, Selus and Pretorious.

Still If an AR member buy's the rifle and wants some of the missing links...I have them but that should be factored into the price

I was lucky enough to see and handle that rifle whilst in London a couple of years ago.

It was kept in the Beretta showrooms where John Ormiston was working at the time.

A very interesting piece of history.

That's a real f&(*#ed up deal, I thought auction houses had ways of dealing with things that didn't meet reserve. They should have covered the difference the bastards. Especially after talking you into selling it.

How about some pictures?

Red

quote:

It was sold for less than the reserve price

I'm an idiot, but isn't that the purpose of the reserve price? How the hell did they sell it while having a reserve price? I understood reserves to be a 'go, no-go' point?

If i knew how to buy stuff for less than the reserve, i;d have some really cool stuff...

usually they hold the gun for another go, at a later auction, that is the usual deal with holts as well.
for items unsold you can make a bid and if the seller accepts then it is a deal, but with no consent from you, it sounds like you got shafted big time ganyana, especially with a rare piece like this

peter

John had been trying to buy the rifle off me for at least a decade...I had no idea who had bought it until six months or so after the sale when he mentioned that he had finally got it in a letter to my landlord.

And yes...I thought the purpose of a reserve price was so that it would not be sold for less than agreed...however, it seems that is not always the case...And I still have the original documents from Holts agent showing the reserve agreed upon. I suspect it was a case of 'he is far away, with no reliable communications and well make the decisions...At the time Air mail post to Zim was taking 3 months. Still water under the bridge in many ways...but I still have the original letters and photo's- I sent only copies with the Holts agent...

Ganyana:

I don't know anything about Holt's or, really, most English auction houses but I do know that part of this story is not being told. You ABSOLUTELY had to accept their check for the sale of your gun, whatever the price, or it would not have been a sale and you could easily have gotten it back into your possession. Perhaps your need for the offered price was greater than your need for more money, but you took the deal in the end, or you'd have gotten the gun back.

Gatogordo...no- the problem was that is I absolutely rufused the deal then I had to pay for the advertising costs and pay for the gun to be taken out of the UK or pay storage..and since it had been about 4 months between the sale and over three since they had deposited the money ion my account it just wasn't worth the fight - and If I paid the money back I didn't have enough money to pay the charges...

I thought I would wait to see who bought it and if they would contact me for all the stuff (including a couple of boxes of original ammo from the 96'rebellion etc and all the original photo's)..but nobody did.

Also...Some SCI member out there might know- 5-6 years ago I donated a Martini Henry rifle and a Webley 1876 revolver (in .450 Colt) to be auctioned to raise money for the rifa enduation camp. A man named Ken Wachs (sp) organised the auction, The rifle and revolver had belong to my great Grandfather who was one of two 'Americans' in the Pioner Corps that occupied Rhodesia in 1890..and they were his issue weapons. Nothing special Rifle was a standard Mk ii Martini (1876) and the revolver was interesting...It was originally in .476 but Cecil Rhodes had 250 of them altered to take the .45 colt cartridge because experience had shown that the .476 wasn't great at going through Zulu shileds and he thought the more pointed and powerful American round would be better.

Anyway..Guns were auctioned (for more than Selous rifle) and Money recieved...but again I still have the books and family records that they were issued to William Ross..and I would have thought that the history of them was part of the atraction (and why the sale price was so high)...

Ganyana ..

I see the rifle was advertised in March 2007 for the range GBP 5-7K + vat on hammer price.

Correct me if im wrong but was not John Ormiston on the board or in some management postion with H & H at one time !!

Cheers, Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
At the time Air mail post to Zim was taking 3 months.

When was this? In 1890?

Times haven't changed much...... The SA postal service often take anything up to five or six months to get post from the UK to SA.

If it ever gets here at all.

Bala Bala...as far as I know John is still with H&H

He used to own African Sporting Gazzette and Scotish Sporting Gazette, but sold ASG to Rich Lendrum who has really taken the magazine forward. Haven't seen a copy Of SSG since dingaan was a boy scout.

David...The mail was quicker when we used runners with cleft sticks to carry the letters. Monkeypality of Harare bills can take 6 weeks to cross town

Hello Ganyana & Guests worldwide

You might ALL find this (pdf file link below) very interesting reading !! I liked it myself ....

Cheers, Peter in NZ

Holt's

----------------------------------------

Ganyana:

Thanks for the clarification. Now it is clear that Holt's is not what I'd consider a good partner to auction one's items. The only solace is that you're by far not the first nor will you be the last to be screwed by auction houses. They may be fine if you're selling a Renoir but for many historically interesting items their costs (usually at least 20% of price realized, but negotiable all the way down to zero (because they get the buyer's premium) on big ticket items often make them a poor choice IF the seller knows the market. Estates often don't know those values, which is one of the many reasons we should keep our heirs informed of current values.

Under the circumstances that you describe, Ganyana, I can find no wrongdoing on the part of Holt's.

You really should have given authority to someone you trusted, preferably in London, or someone who could be reached by telephone or telegram in Zimbabwe, to act on your behalf in a timely way.

Someone who could respond to a communication from Holt's and give them direction when it was needed. After all, you say that you were unavailable for an extended period of time, right?

Did you have no contingency plan for what would happen if the rifle did not sell? No plan to have someone take it and keep it for you in the UK?

It seems as though Holt's did not transfer the rifle to the high bidder at auction, but kept it in storage waiting for you to respond. I will say that they could have cut you a break on storage costs, to be sure, but charging for storage is fairly common.

I know John Ormiston, although not terribly well, and have done business with him, and he has always acted honorably towards me.

Mike- I make no judgement on John. He was the higest bidder at the auction...my problem was with the Holts africa Agent who had signed the agreement with me which states that if the rifle didn't rach the reserve price it would be held till the next auction. It was advertised at below the reserve price and when I questioned this I was assured that it was simply marketing.

The next communication that actually arrived was a bank statement showing the money had been deposited...I eventually got through on the phone and had a row...then the letters from Holts arrived and I eventually got through on the phone gain and the gist of it was, they could get the rifle back and return it but wouldn't sell it and I would have to arange it's collection- which basicaly wasn't possible...

At the end of the day I accepted the sale but kept the original letters and evidence. If it sells for 20k John or the new owner may drop me a line and negotiate for the rest. Without the evidence I hold it is merely an interesting Gibbs and aledgedley one of the ten that Selous ordered over the years. There is another in Durban I know of with the same 'alledged' status.

And yes. I am a grouch and a sore looser and have got worse with age.

Well, then, Holt's definitely did not perform as promised and there is no excuse for that.

I don't envy you having to handle something like that from so far away.

I would think that your original provenance documents would be something the new owner would certainly want.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
There is another in Durban I know of with the same 'alledged' status.

Be great if you put that one up as the "real" one with provenance. That'd get 'em.

Ganyana

IT seems you have the paper work record and HOLTS have not adhered chapter and verse to your documented indstructins.

Therfore they are then in breach of what you asked for or agreed upon.

They have NOT complied in full with your documented instructions.

The problem is you would have to take a legal challenge at great expense to yourself and we all know they certainly have the money and laywers to support them.

Basically when a little man takes on a big man in court the cards are stacked in the big mans favour from the money side of things.

Cheers, Peter

Funny, I know a guy here in US that has the same rifle also claimed to be the real Selous rifle...now this is an interesting post!!...I will forward it to him for kicks!!

470

As far as I have been able to trace Selous ordered 10 rifles from Gibbs between 1880 and 1893. Two were in Gibbs No 1 cartridge - these were the first two he ordered and one of the ones on sale at Holts. The others were all in Gibbs No 2 cartridge which took 85grns of black behind the 540grn bullet (as oposed to the 75grns of the No 1 behind the same bullet).

All but the first one had sideplates fitted by Beasley BEFORE the stocks broke. If anybody finds the first rifle Selous got from them it is a .450 N0 1 Gibbs and the stock is broken through at the wrist and repaired with a dowel rodd in Africa and covered over with the sideplates later.

It is very doubtful that Selous used more than 3 of these rifles- the first we know fior sure, the second, becuase it was bought off him in Bulawayo in 1888 and given as part of the Bribe to get Jahannes Colenbrander to change sides. Selous was on his way back to England and could easily replace the rifle. When he returned again (1890) he carried a rifle chambered for the Gibbs No 2 round. He carried such a rifle at the battle of Singewsi in 1893 - where he was wounded- standing right next to great grandfather who was also wounded. The two of them loathed each other but got to spend the next couple of weeks next to each other in an Ox wagon ambulance.

Selous returned to England after the 1893 war back was back in Rhodesia with his new bride in time to be caught up in the matebele rebelion in 1896. Photographs from the early stages of the rebellion show him carrying a Gibbs and a bandolier full of No 2 rounds. Later in the rebellion he carried a Lee Metrord carbine and used a .303 for all his hunting there after.

Why he should have ordered so many Gibbs rifles in No2 isn't known and he doesn't say. But were probably ordered for friends (which certainly didn't include 2 out of 4 of my great grandfathers who were with him in the Pioneer corps and the two subsiquent wars )

Selous was good, but a better writer...Colenbrander- now there was a Man amongst men...They said the only person the matebele feared more than Colenbrander was ....His Wife- She carried two to four .455 revlovers hidden in her dress and handbag on most occasions...when in society dress she carried the little .442 webley RIC's

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
great grandfather who was also wounded. The two of them loathed each other....

...friends (which certainly didn't include 2 out of 4 of my great grandfathers who were with him in the Pioneer corps and the two subsiquent wars )

Ganyana,

It seems you come from a long line of puppy kickers !

Seriously though, have you given any thought to gettting that type of oral history collected and published? I for one would pay good money such a book. With a bit of hunting around, I'd bet you could even get some funding to help the project along. Maybe a two book deal along with your memoirs (that was a HINT btw).

Cheers,
Dean

quote:

Originally posted by maki:
Maybe a two book deal along with your memoirs (that was a HINT btw).

Cheers,
Dean

+1

best

peter

Ganyana,

Speaking of books, this fellow Colenbrander sounds like an interesting character. Any good books you can recommend about him or that discuss his exploits?

The White Whirlwind by T. V. Bulpin which you'll find about a quarter of the way down the page here: http://www.shakariconnection.c...loration-books2.html

Ganyana,

I am with you, I could get a bit cranky over a deal like that.

Rich
DRSS

Ganyana, very interesting history and very plausable!! I know that Bell had many, like 6 of the Westley Richards bolt rifles in 275 Rigby/7x57 Mauser...one of which has recently been written about in African Sporting Gazette.
I was with my friend when he bought the subject rifle, years ago and it DOES have Selous sideplates and came into Canada via Gibbs shop in Vancouver. I can't, for the life of me, remember the caliber, it is NOT 450, but don't know if 461 No.1, or No.2??
He is out on a trip right now and I have sent the thread to him by e-mail and I have left him a voice mail so that he will pick it up and perhaps chime in as well?
Seems like these old rifles do project many stories...only if they could talk!!

470...Selous always ordered .450's...and gibbs obliged...by selling him the rifles chambered for what is now called .461! Same barrel dimentions as the martini henry..ie .461 across groves and .450 across lands! and Gibbs simply sold their ammo as Gibbs No 1 or Gibbs No 2 with no actual refeerence to caliber.

I have the list of serial No's of the rifles Beasly fitted side plates to aledgedly for Selous.

Interesting!! Never thought of it that way. I expect to be shooting doves with the owner over the weekend, I will check it out and get back to you.

Maki

'Ganyana' is a family name..unique to the 'keeper of the Kings seal' ie the 'prime minister' of the matebele nation...The last black' Ganyana got himself killed near Khami runins in 1896...and my dad still has the seal

One book ready...just looking for a publisher, as it is not really a hunting book, more about the zambezi valley before Kariba.

Keep trying to finish 'the art of hunting lion' for the African Hunter series but as anybody who has ever written a book wil tell you, writing the book is 90% of the work.Editing and polishing it is the other 90% of the work...I am in the second 90% and it seems like 180% with small kids assisting, the 'zimbabwe situation' making me work harder than want to...it all gets in the way.

Ganyana,

Glad to hear your are working on a couple of books. I look forward to seeing them. As some one who would have been a historian had I been able to figure out how to do that while earning enough money to hunt in Africa and not being an academic, I really hope some of your family history ends up in print. It's a real pity when that sort of living history fades away.

Now off to tear out some more dry wall. With the help of a little kid....

Dean

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ganyana:
470...Selous always ordered .450's...and gibbs obliged...by selling him the rifles chambered for what is now called .461! Same barrel dimentions as the martini henry..ie .461 across groves and .450 across lands!QUOTE]

Actually, the bore is .461" and the grooves are +/-.472" on a standard 461 Gibbs No.1 or No.2.
I suppose Selous could have orderd one specifically bored to .450. Have any owners of the actual Selous rifles ever slugged the bore? How about a measurement of the original ammo which was mentioned to be for the Selous rifle?

Huvius

Have several boxes of original No1 and No 2 ammo in two different bullet styles. The 'standard' 540 grn and a lighter copper tube one. Bullets are identical in diamiter to martini...

Gibbs admited that he made riflesfor his no1 or his no 2 cartridge and if the customer orderedd it as a .450 then the cases of ammo supplied (note, case not individual box) would be marked ' Gibbs .450 N0 1' an if he ordered a .461 then the ammo cases would be marked ' .461 No 1'. The rifles carry no caliber markings, and nor do the individual 10 rnd pakages.

And as they are 5 lands and groves, measuring them is a bugger to put it mildly! Anyway, measured land to grove the gibbs in Question (Serial No 125) is the same as threeof my martini henries and 2 thou smaller than both martini carbines I own

Ganyana,
Is the ammo you have marked 461 or 450?

Also, are the guns Gibbs made in the 450 bore chambered in the 500/450 variants. I would think that a 450 No.1 Gibbs would be much like the 500/450 No.2 Musket round.

Gibbs ammo is not marked with caliber..All 5 different lots I have are marked wither Gibbs No 1 or Gibbs no 2, same as the rifles.

The individual papkets are not mared with cal either, hust No1 or No 2...Onlt the cases (of 1000) were marked with a caliber and only then if the customer orderd them as a specific cal ie as Selous apprently did

I have a few rounds made post WWII which are marked .461 Gibbs. - but by then Gibbs was long out of buisness

Rounds are visually distinct from the .450 Musket rounds (which were used in many civilian martini's and also the Gardner, Mazim and Gattling machine guns. Why the heck the brits didn't adopted the >450 Musket which is a much better design than either the 577?450 or the .45-70 heaven only knows. Almost all qaulity sporting rifles from 175-1895 with the exception of the Gibbs offerings have been chambered for it

I agree. The no.2 musket is a great cartridge. I have a Farquharson chambered in it and what a fun rifle!
Just notice how similar it is to my Gibbs cartridges. Makes one wonder whether a Gibbs shell in 450 would be any better than the musket round.