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Originally posted by DLS:
I’ve been on many guided hunts in Alaska, British Columbia, Yukon, Alberta, the Western States and 6 in Africa to include Zimbabwe, Botswana, South Africa, Zambia & Tanzania. Only had problems on one African hunt and they both occurred on the same hunt in Botswana.

I was hunting with one of Botswana’s “Big 17” PH’s, now deceased, and we had a very good 24 day hunt, despite 2 significant problems. The big problem was when we found an excellent lion and had spent a couple days trying to kill it without success. When the owner of the safari company heard about the lion over the shortwave radio the 2nd evening of chasing that cat, he kicked us out of camp so that he could fly in with his client, who was a very prominent wildlife painter, known for his sheep paintings. We were at the airstrip when they landed and I was livid about being kicked out of camp so that the artist (G.S.) could shoot the lion we’d been hunting. I got into a confrontation with the owner (A. McF.), and my PH had to pull us apart. We left for the other camp we were being sent to, and they killed the lion later that same day. The other problem was that when I met my PH at the beginning of the safari, he had a very pretty blond in tow. They’d met a day or two before at a bar in Gaberone and he informed me that she would be with us on my hunt, all 24 days. She was pleasant and easy on the eyes but it was June and very cold, and I had to ride on top so she could ride in the cab to stay warm. I froze my ass off so that he could be cozy with her. The bigger problem was that we often had to return to camp midday for ‘a nap’. We’d have lunch, then they’d head off for their ‘nap’. I’d invariably be sitting around reading a book while they were screwing their brains out, sometimes rather noisily. He also pulled a few dumb stunts, trying to impress her. One entirely avoidable stunt ended with me way to close to the open mouth of a large Black Mamba. Thankfully, I was just a bit too far to reach or I wouldn’t be typing this now. Suffice it to say that I’ve seen a mamba’s open mouth closer than 99% of anyone else who can still write about it. After 6 or 7 days of ‘naps’ over the first couple weeks, I finally talked to my PH about it. We wrapped up the hunt with no more nap days. I ended up with a great bag that included a lion (much less than the one we got kicked off of), shot on the 22nd day, a great Kalahari leopard, 2 good buffalo and a bunch of plains game. All in all, a very good hunt but with 2 problems that shouldn’t have occurred. At least the pretty blond was a physician, so we had a doctor in camp should anyone have gotten injured or sick.

Only other problems I’ve had were on a couple hunts in BC and my only hunt in Alberta. I won’t elaborate other than to say they were total shit shows. Must be something about Canadian hunts.

Final comment, since the subject of agents came up on this thread. I’ve used a handful of different agents over the years. Several have been good, one wasn’t and I believe is no longer in business; but I want to note that none have been as detail oriented and thorough as Mark Young. Mark booked my Zambian hunt, which had some moving parts (2 different areas, 2 different PH’s) and it came off perfectly. He did a fantastic job and merits mention here. I’ll be using Mark again the next time I book a hunt through an agent.

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posted by lavaca: I'm fascinated by a lot more than just the animals we are hunting.

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Only other problems I’ve had were on a couple hunts in BC and my only hunt in Alberta. I won’t elaborate other than to say they were total shit shows. Must be something about Canadian hunts.

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Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I agree that most people are willing to give others the benefit of the doubt, and at least try to get along.

But unfortunately, there are exceptions, and we all run into them from time to time.

I happen to love Canadians. I think they are wonderful people, as a rule. Except for the odd Quebecois or other. This, despite the fact that Canadians have always been horribly bad luck for me in a hunting camp. I might as well turn around and go home as hunt while a Canadian is sharing my camp.

But the only truly obnoxious experience I’ve ever had with a Canadian was with a Quebecois hunting guide.Most people who go there are idiots.

We were hunting whitetail deer on Anticosti Island, in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, and spotted one from the truck. He was across a meadow, upwind from the truck. We piled out of the truck and took off after the buck.

We stalked fairly close, and I raised my rifle to shoot. But I was dismayed to find out that my scope was completely fogged. Not internally, but on the exterior of the lenses. It was so warm in the truck, and so cold outside, that condensation had instantly formed on both the ocular and objective lenses, which made the scope useless.

I told my guide that, and he asked me for my rifle.

Thinking that he meant to wipe the lenses clear with a cloth he carried, I gave him my rifle.

To my astonishment, he instantly raised it and shot at the deer!

Of course, he could not see what he was shooting at, and missed by a mile.

I snatched my rifle back, and shared a few choice words with him. Something along the lines of, “What the f**k are you doing, you stupid son of a b**ch!” - if I remember correctly. I could not believe he had done that. That was one of only two or three seriously WTF interpersonal moments I’ve ever had while hunting.

That put paid to any further discussion between him and me about hunting or anything else. Luckily or not, it was the last day of my hunt, so the awkwardness didn’t last long.

I heard secondhand from other guides, while flying back to Montreal on the DC-3, that my guide had been terribly upset that he did not get a tip!

I told them, c’est dommage.

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Originally posted by Bwana Moja:

This is where the dis-"connect" sometimes starts to begin and issues arise. Once on an elk hunt, a guide scolded me for not shooting a small 5 X 5. He got in my face and told me, "When I order you to shoot, you shoot!" Things did not go well after that. (You might even be reading this right now on this board, for you know who you are.)

.

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Originally posted by Bwana Moja:
This is a good topic starter Ross. My thoughts immediately go to the posturing that takes place on the initial stages of the hunt, which actually begins the moment you shake hands upon arrival to camp.

1) I've never connected with a PH on day one but by the end of the hunt, we've always developed into good friends.

2) Nor do I want to have a wonderful great connection on day one. I want each of us, trackers, PH and myself to EARN each other's trust and deep friendship. If I booked with you, traveling across the world to come hunt with you, there must be something I already like about you.

3) If you can handle your business with your gun, that certainly helps grow the connection. Some PH's are more chatty than others. You as the client have to be able to know when to quiet down, and how to hunt quietly, non-verbally and read body language of the trackers and PH. Sometimes they don't want to tell you "everything", just to gauge how you react in the heat of the moment.

My overall advice would be this: Always respect the PH, guide and trackers for knowing way way way more than you, bcuz the hunting grounds serve as their natural backyard. We the client are just the part-timer as the 14, 17 or 21-day hunter. Having said that, you the client should never pull the trigger until you 100% feel "ready."

This is where the dis-"connect" sometimes starts to begin and issues arise. Once on an elk hunt, a guide scolded me for not shooting a small 5 X 5. He got in my face and told me, "When I order you to shoot, you shoot!" Things did not go well after that. (You might even be reading this right now on this board, for you know who you are.)

Judge the quality of a PH and a hunting operation not by how it starts, but by how it ends up. Be willing to make adjustments and raise your game and skill level as a hunter. Treat it as an education, with the outdoors being the classroom. You'll get tested numerous times along the way.

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...make sure things are done to your satisfaction and don't be shy to throw a red card when needed.

And no, I couldn't give one single shit if they like me. We're hunting, not dating. (I used to care)

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and made tapas out of a shit sandwich.

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Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

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Originally posted by Bwana Moja:
This is a good topic starter Ross. My thoughts immediately go to the posturing that takes place on the initial stages of the hunt, which actually begins the moment you shake hands upon arrival to camp.

1) I've never connected with a PH on day one but by the end of the hunt, we've always developed into good friends.

2) Nor do I want to have a wonderful great connection on day one. I want each of us, trackers, PH and myself to EARN each other's trust and deep friendship. If I booked with you, traveling across the world to come hunt with you, there must be something I already like about you.

3) If you can handle your business with your gun, that certainly helps grow the connection. Some PH's are more chatty than others. You as the client have to be able to know when to quiet down, and how to hunt quietly, non-verbally and read body language of the trackers and PH. Sometimes they don't want to tell you "everything", just to gauge how you react in the heat of the moment.

My overall advice would be this: Always respect the PH, guide and trackers for knowing way way way more than you, bcuz the hunting grounds serve as their natural backyard. We the client are just the part-timer as the 14, 17 or 21-day hunter. Having said that, you the client should never pull the trigger until you 100% feel "ready."

This is where the dis-"connect" sometimes starts to begin and issues arise. Once on an elk hunt, a guide scolded me for not shooting a small 5 X 5. He got in my face and told me, "When I order you to shoot, you shoot!" Things did not go well after that. (You might even be reading this right now on this board, for you know who you are.)

Judge the quality of a PH and a hunting operation not by how it starts, but by how it ends up. Be willing to make adjustments and raise your game and skill level as a hunter. Treat it as an education, with the outdoors being the classroom. You'll get tested numerous times along the way.

Mark -

I agree with 99% of this. I believe where the disconnect grows form your identified point is that most clients "want the PH to like them".

If a disagreement, procedure or habit of your PH becomes a problem, most won't address it right then. They want to let it go. Unfortunately, the tension builds from there and you carry it the whole time.

I will immediately, tell him, her or it "hey..wait a minute" you just said, did such and such and I don't appreciate that.

I've had rude smokers for PH's, I'll just tell em'

I've told many hunting teams that I want to understand whats going on. When they speak in Swahili to one another, I want a translation (during a stalk) I learn, absorb a new tactic or technique that way. And I genuinely want to know.

I had a absolute picture taking Nazi that I finally handed his camera to a tracker and told him to have them take your pictures.

Every time, those things have been immediately corrected and normally are discussed in a friendly manner in the cruiser right away. Its your vacation, make sure things are done to your satisfaction and don't be shy to throw a red card when needed.

And no, I couldn't give one single shit if they like me. We're hunting, not dating. (I used to care)

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Originally posted by fairgame:

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Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

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Originally posted by Bwana Moja:
This is a good topic starter Ross. My thoughts immediately go to the posturing that takes place on the initial stages of the hunt, which actually begins the moment you shake hands upon arrival to camp.

1) I've never connected with a PH on day one but by the end of the hunt, we've always developed into good friends.

2) Nor do I want to have a wonderful great connection on day one. I want each of us, trackers, PH and myself to EARN each other's trust and deep friendship. If I booked with you, traveling across the world to come hunt with you, there must be something I already like about you.

3) If you can handle your business with your gun, that certainly helps grow the connection. Some PH's are more chatty than others. You as the client have to be able to know when to quiet down, and how to hunt quietly, non-verbally and read body language of the trackers and PH. Sometimes they don't want to tell you "everything", just to gauge how you react in the heat of the moment.

My overall advice would be this: Always respect the PH, guide and trackers for knowing way way way more than you, bcuz the hunting grounds serve as their natural backyard. We the client are just the part-timer as the 14, 17 or 21-day hunter. Having said that, you the client should never pull the trigger until you 100% feel "ready."

This is where the dis-"connect" sometimes starts to begin and issues arise. Once on an elk hunt, a guide scolded me for not shooting a small 5 X 5. He got in my face and told me, "When I order you to shoot, you shoot!" Things did not go well after that. (You might even be reading this right now on this board, for you know who you are.)

Judge the quality of a PH and a hunting operation not by how it starts, but by how it ends up. Be willing to make adjustments and raise your game and skill level as a hunter. Treat it as an education, with the outdoors being the classroom. You'll get tested numerous times along the way.

Mark -

I agree with 99% of this. I believe where the disconnect grows form your identified point is that most clients "want the PH to like them".

If a disagreement, procedure or habit of your PH becomes a problem, most won't address it right then. They want to let it go. Unfortunately, the tension builds from there and you carry it the whole time.

I will immediately, tell him, her or it "hey..wait a minute" you just said, did such and such and I don't appreciate that.

I've had rude smokers for PH's, I'll just tell em'

I've told many hunting teams that I want to understand whats going on. When they speak in Swahili to one another, I want a translation (during a stalk) I learn, absorb a new tactic or technique that way. And I genuinely want to know.

I had a absolute picture taking Nazi that I finally handed his camera to a tracker and told him to have them take your pictures.

Every time, those things have been immediately corrected and normally are discussed in a friendly manner in the cruiser right away. Its your vacation, make sure things are done to your satisfaction and don't be shy to throw a red card when needed.

And no, I couldn't give one single shit if they like me. We're hunting, not dating. (I used to care)

Steve,

I agree with all that you say but for the majority, you will find the PH's job is mainly public relations. Within a day or so of your safari, you should be comfortable with the team, and whilst there are no guarantees in free range hunting you should be able to go away feeling that your money was well spent.

I hunted Leopard with Mike Robinson and we had the choice of a representative Leopard near camp or a crack at a difficult previously hunted brute. For the sake of some brush or fading light, I just could not make the call on the big cat. But in 14 days we hunted well and experienced many exciting times and we all got on very well.

The lesser male was shot later by another hunter on the first sitting and it would have not been what Mike wanted.

My point is if you are spending your hard-earned cash on a hunt/vacation then you should get a maximum return for your dollar and enjoying yourself.

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Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I hear you guys talking about "not needing to be liked by the PH" and "it's just a business deal" and all. I understand, it's your money and your hunt so the hunt is what matters most.

That said, I still enjoy the hunting experience much more when I connect with the PH. I like the camaraderie of the team and especially, my interactions with the PH. I don't show up with a chip on my shoulder, demanding the PH earn my respect, etc. I show up to have a good time on my dime. For me, a safari IS more than a business deal. It's an overall experience. I have been assigned a PH I didn't connect with. Hunted with him twice. He was a true professional and we either got the game we were after, or I turned down a shot looking for better. But I only agreed to hunt with him the second time because of his appy. His appy and I hit it off within the first few minutes of being introduced. The appy eventually got his PH license and I've hunted with him several times now, and look forward to doing so again.

I get it the discussion guys. But for me, I still prefer to hunt with friends. That doesn't mean I don't understand there is a business relationship in place as well. Yes, the business relationship can exist without the friendship and you can get the animals you desired for your hunt. But I prefer the business relationship with the friendship aspect. It enhances my experience when reliving the memories. YMMV however and that's perfectly OK.

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If a disagreement, procedure or habit of your PH becomes a problem, most won't address it right then. They want to let it go. Unfortunately, the tension builds from there and you carry it the whole time.

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Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

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Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I hear you guys talking about "not needing to be liked by the PH" and "it's just a business deal" and all. I understand, it's your money and your hunt so the hunt is what matters most.

That said, I still enjoy the hunting experience much more when I connect with the PH. I like the camaraderie of the team and especially, my interactions with the PH. I don't show up with a chip on my shoulder, demanding the PH earn my respect, etc. I show up to have a good time on my dime. For me, a safari IS more than a business deal. It's an overall experience. I have been assigned a PH I didn't connect with. Hunted with him twice. He was a true professional and we either got the game we were after, or I turned down a shot looking for better. But I only agreed to hunt with him the second time because of his appy. His appy and I hit it off within the first few minutes of being introduced. The appy eventually got his PH license and I've hunted with him several times now, and look forward to doing so again.

I get it the discussion guys. But for me, I still prefer to hunt with friends. That doesn't mean I don't understand there is a business relationship in place as well. Yes, the business relationship can exist without the friendship and you can get the animals you desired for your hunt. But I prefer the business relationship with the friendship aspect. It enhances my experience when reliving the memories. YMMV however and that's perfectly OK.

Todd, I'm reading that you think I go in with a chip on my shoulder. If that's your belief, I won't argue.

However, there is a huge delta in seeking that friendship or allowing it to form organically.

If my showing up, fit, focused, rifles ready, being able to see the animals and in most cases, make the shot isn't enough to garner the respect for being prepared for whatever, I don't care beyond that. The rest is just jewelry.

Playing games to seek approval is yet another. I don't need validation.

Again, seeking versus allowing it organically.

YMMV.

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Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Then there was the "stalker" I hunted with in the Scottish Highlands. Scotland is a beautiful place, the land of my ancestors. But this guy missed the parents, or maybe the ten years in charm school, that he clearly needed to make him even sufferable as a human being.

On the first day of my hunt, we stalked up a hill until we were within range of a small herd of red deer. Of course, as is the custom, my stalker dragged my rifle up the hill in a gun sleeve.

Then he glassed the deer, and chose a stag, again as is the custom. The stag was surprisingly good, a twelve point royal.

Then he withdrew my rifle from the sleeve, passed it to me, and gave me permission to load it, as is also the custom.

Then he rolled up the sleeve, so that I could use it as a rest, and placed it on the ground in front of me.

Then he gave me permission to shoot the chosen stag.

I remember thinking at the time, "Am I being treated like royalty, or an idiot? Or is there no difference?" This Scottish red stag hunting was turning out to be very strange.

Anyway, all of that notwithstanding, I carefully aimed my rifle and fired. The stag faltered, and as the herd ran off, he moved away behind them, clearly hit.

My stalker growled, "You missed. Shoot him again, in the neck."

The stag was about 150 or so yards away, moving toward the top of a ridge, and I had a clear shot at his vitals. But I had been ordered to shoot him in the neck.

I was not happy, in the first place, to have been told I had missed the deer, when I had obviously hit him. And I was also unhappy, not to say perplexed, to then be told to follow up with a difficult shot to the neck.

But I nonetheless tried to make the shot, and not surprisingly missed.

I later learned that the estate was going to sell the venison from my kill on the commercial market, and that my stalker did not want me to spoil any more meat, and force a lower price, by taking a shoulder or lung shot. I am not a commercial hunter, and found, and still find, that policy to be repugnant. A wounded animal needs to be followed and put down fast, without regard to anything but that prime objective.

We watched the deer walk over the ridge, and then got up to follow him.

My stalker muttered at me, almost under his breath, "Shoot him when we see him. If you miss him again, I'm going to f**cking shoot him myself."

The stag was moving slowly, so we had actually made up some ground when we crested the ridge. I shot the stag again, this time ignoring my orders and putting my bullet high into the crease of his shoulder, as he quartered away. He went down instantly.

We then walked up to him and assured ourselves that the stag was dead. I examined him, and found that my first shot had been a low lung shot, and my second had shot out the top of his heart. Another stalker, who had been hanging back, came up in the Argo and began gralloching the stag. All the while, my stalker had been muttering what I took to be insults under his breath.

I then totally lost my temper with this guy. I put down my rifle, walked away and motioned him over. I told him that the only reason he had any teeth left in his mouth after talking to me that way was that we were chasing a wounded animal and I needed to put him down. I told him that if he had anything else he wanted to say to me, he needed to say it out loud, to my face and now.

All he could do was stutter an apology, and say that he was upset because he didn't want to have to chase after a wounded stag. He asked me if I wanted the cape and antlers, or to take any photos. I told him he could shove the whole stag up his ass as far as I was concerned, and that this hunt was over.

Our outfitter, a very nice guy, met me back at the estate house. I told him what had happened and that I was disgusted by it. I had another stag bought and paid for, and he offered me a third with another man to act as my stalker. But I had had enough. I had found the entire experience to be weird and my stalker to be a total asshole.

I gave my second stag to another hunter in our group of three, a very nice guy named Lenny from Philadelphia. I later learned that he killed my second to go along with his two.

Happily, I had a rental car, and bugged out of the highlands for Glasgow, where my wife was visiting with family.

After a day or two with family, we booked a round trip flight to Barcelona and made tapas out of a shit sandwich.

Nothing like that has ever happened on any of my many safaris to multiple countries in Africa. I'm not sure what it is about the USA, Europe and Asia, but in my experience, the standards of ability and professionalism for professional hunters in Africa are far, far higher.

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In the end , always smile and laugh...and your hunt will be then OK

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Originally posted by DLS:
You weren’t hunting on Pitmain Estate, were you? Sounds a lot like a gamekeeper I hunted with on that estate.