Okay, so I have put alot of thought to this and would just like some opinions on the subject, as I am getting ready to spend quite a chunk of money.
After shooting an Elephant (captial "E" because they deserve that much respect) I think a good bit of medicine for them is the 458 Lott and for a novice that is probably the smallest caliber that should be attempted. I personally prefer the model 70 classic action, so I am looking for a 458 win and I am going to have it converted to Lott.
For a back-up(which hopefully will not be needed) I am going to get one of the CZ 9.3x62 full stocks (I just like the look of that full stock gun).
Then I already have a model 70 classic in 300 win mag which should cover anything else.
So am I on the right track? In a bolt rifle is the 458 lott the best choice (recoil is not a problem)?

Since you are soliciting opinion, I will indulge. Elephant, if shot properly, will be shot very close. On another thread you can read about forumite 450NENo.2 shooting elephant at under 10 paces. At that distance, your model 70 is a SINGLE SHOT. Why? Because the elephant can get to you before you can finish working the bolt to get your 2nd shot ready.

Obviously, you therefore need a double rile. May I mention a Searcy PH model?



Personally I think the 9.3 x 62 is a perfect backup gun, because while it is legal for DG, it has low recoil and will let you enjoy the plains game part of your hunt. The .300 Win Mag is unnecessary and redundant so I would leave it at home.

(Let the flaming begin.)

Hard to fault that advice.

I have pined away looking at double rifles for years. I have wanted one for a long time and I still do. I have finaly come to the conclusion that I will probably never buy one because for the price of a double that is one less GOOD safari that I can go on.

Double rifles are beautifull and the good ones can save your life. HOWEVER don't let anyone tell you that you NEED one. Especially in todays Africa !!!

If you shoot your 458 enough. (enough being about 100 to 150 rounds a year instead of the usual 20 rounds after buying and before safari like most hunters with large calliber rifles)
And shoot off hand and learn to reload without taking the rifle off your shoulder I don't think you will be that much slower that a double.

Now that said if you are in a much better finantial situation than I am and 12k to 20k on a rifle that is usefull on MAYBE 7 animals on earth wont break you I agree with 500 Grains.

I have shot the Searcy and the Krieghoff big 5.
My vote would go for a Krieghoff in 500-416 with QD scope and a 20 gauge set of barrels for birds. You might as well use it as much as possible when it costs that much.

Good luck with the Elephant

Honkey,
Need has nothig to do with this!
What he has now is enough!
A double is a specific tool for a particular job! We like to extend it's uses.

I will agree the 500/416 is an excellent choice! A long good penetrating bullet!

As far ast eh model 70 conversion, I see nothing wrong with that. Just time and money.

You could probabaly find a used Kreighoff.

The great thing about a decent double is that you can get most of your money back out of it. A new Searcy PH model costs $9500 but they sell quickly used for $8500. Merkels and Krieghoffs tend to drop a bit more in price and may not move as quickly, especially in an off-beat caliber (500/416 or 416 Rigby). Custom bolt rifles can be hard to move and often a 30-50% discount off original investment is needed in order to find a buyer.

Anyone who buys a double rifle and only uses it to shoot Elephant, has more money than he needs! I do 90% of my hunting with a double rifle of one caliber or an other! At the DRSS, we hunt almost everything with double rifles, which BWN300MAG is aware, as I believe his brother is a member, who has a couple double rifles! I'm sure BWN300MAG has shot them, and still wants a Mod 70 458 LOTT. There is no accounting for taste!

The Mod 70 is fine for the number of Elephant he will shoot in his life time, and is only a draw back when the Ele is too close, and the first shot is not good. Of course that could be on the next Elephant he faces. It "IS" his choice! Like 500 I would go for a good double rifle, especially if I were as young as BWN, with 30 yrs of hunting ahead of me! $10K prorated over that 30 yrs of hunting is quite cheap, IMO!

If I were going to use a bolt rifle for Buffalo, and Ele, it would be a Mauser actioned rifle, or secondly a Mod 70 chambered for 458 LOTT. So in that case I agree with BWN's choice, however, my choice if I didn't already have a double in 470NE, I'd be talking to Butch about a 470NE, or 500/416 PH Model!

These guys had a used 458Win in Model 70 when I was there two weeks ago. I don't remember the price nor for sure if it was "Classic".

This is their website to contact them for questions.

Marks Outdoors

Good luck in your endeavour.

A .458 Lott in the Model 70 classic is an excellent choice for an elephant rifle.

BWN300MAG,

IMHO you are on the right track. What 500 grains says is true but I doubt you will get that close and if you do, your PH will undoubtedly do what he gets paid for. Doubles are great but they are not the end all to end all and not everyone is ready to invest that much money in a gun that may only be used once or twice in a lifetime..

IMHO the double rifle has an advatage over the bolt rifle in that the second shot is quicker. No one can argue with that logic. But a bolt is faster for 3 shots then a double. Few would argue that point. One can make up scenarios where one is preferable to the other. For a client either will work just fine as he will have a PH at his side to handle the extremely remote chance that a very quick second shot is necessary. Too many professional elephant hunters have used and sworn by bolt guns to argue that fact. That is from a hunter that believes implicitly in his 465 double. I have never felt handicapped on approaching an elephant with a bolt gun in my hands. But it could happen on my next approach.

465H&H

First Ele I shot was a frontal brain shot with a 375H&H. 20 meters maybe. Went right down right back up 2nd round in heart/lung but probably too high. He made the park boundary and we couldn't follow. Reasonably good blood thru trunk I suppose but he didn't stop but once. Resolved to get a double. Got a new 470 Merkel. He went about 75 meters after a Heart/lung shot. Last year I used a 416Rigby and he went about a mile after a heart/lung shot. I believe anything over 40 caliber with the proper bullets you can shoot well will do the job, but I personally will never use less than my 470 should I ever get the chance again.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Anyone who buys a double rifle and only uses it to shoot Elephant, has more money than he needs! I do 90% of my hunting with a double rifle of one caliber or an other! At the DRSS, we hunt almost everything with double rifles, which BWN300MAG is aware, as I believe his brother is a member, who has a couple double rifles! I'm sure BWN300MAG has shot them, and still wants a Mod 70 458 LOTT. There is no accounting for taste!

The Mod 70 is fine for the number of Elephant he will shoot in his life time, and is only a draw back when the Ele is too close, and the first shot is not good. Of course that could be on the next Elephant he faces. It "IS" his choice! Like 500 I would go for a good double rifle, especially if I were as young as BWN, with 30 yrs of hunting ahead of me! $10K prorated over that 30 yrs of hunting is quite cheap, IMO!

If I were going to use a bolt rifle for Buffalo, and Ele, it would be a Mauser actioned rifle, or secondly a Mod 70 chambered for 458 LOTT. So in that case I agree with BWN's choice, however, my choice if I didn't already have a double in 470NE, I'd be talking to Butch about a 470NE, or 500/416 PH Model!

Advice looks good to me. Always used doubles on the heavy stuff. It was to be a one time deal the first time. Never worked out that way.

BWN300MAG
Get a double rifle. A 470, one of the 450's, 500/416 or a 450/400.
You will use it a lot more than you think.
It is perfect for Elephant and Buff.
Here in the USA they are great for the Big Bears, black bear over bait, wild pigs, elk, moose, etc in thick timber. I use reduced weight byllets [75% rule] for deer hunting.
I have killed nearly as many coyotes with my 450 No2 as I have with my scoped 308.
I shot my 2 caribou in Alaska with my 450/400 3 1/4".
Heck if nothing else swap your brother out of his Krieghoff 500/416. I have shot it and it shoots good.

Hey all you "instantly available second shot" advocates.............

If you can not brain a still elephant at 20 yards or less what makes any of you think you can do any good with that second shot?

After the botched or otherwise non fatal shot
you will have to............

1 You will have to bring the muzzle back down on target.

2 You will have to re-establish a sight picture
....this time on a moving target.

3 You will have to shoot accuratly (which you did not do the first time under easier circumstances, so what makes you think you can do it now)

Have any of you guys ever hunted birds, dove, duck, quail or pheasant? If you or someone else misses a bird with the first shot how often do you get it with the second? Think about it not very often. It works the same with big game and dangerous game. IMHO

I think a double's limited advantage lies more with buffalo where it is more common to pump more than one round in to them. That being one good aimed shot and a snap shot as the buff runs away( or toward you!!!)

However if you are close to an Elephant in thick cover the object is to drop him fast/instantly with a brain shot before he can get away wounded or trample the piss out of you.
I think you are either going to do that with the first shot or not at all.

Don't get me wrong I love doubles, maybe some day I will get one.

To summ it up... if you have to shoot more than once, at close range it is the better gun to have.

Honkey,

Would we be better off with a single shot?

Also, elephant are not always alone....

quote:

Originally posted by Honkey:

Hey all you "instantly available second shot" advocates.............

Have any of you guys ever hunted birds, dove, duck, quail or pheasant? If you or someone else misses a bird with the first shot how often do you get it with the second? Think about it not very often. It works the same with big game and dangerous game. IMHO

I think you've stumbled onto something there with the bird hunting comparison.

There seem to be a large percentage of bird hunters today using double guns O/U, SxS (configuration doesn't really matter).

The the other side of the question you bring up is a good one... why aren't there more bird-hunters out there with bolt-action shotguns?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Honkey,

Would we be better off with a single shot?

Also, elephant are not always alone....

not than with a double but it never has the feed jams of a bolt and with pratice is just as fast as the average bolt gun user.

Hoinkey brings up an interesting point.
With the large calibers used on Doubles, can you bring the rifle back on target after recoil, as fast as I can work the bolt on a bolt action? Or do you shoot both barrels at once?

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Hoinkey brings up an interesting point.
With the large calibers used on Doubles, can you bring the rifle back on target after recoil, as fast as I can work the bolt on a bolt action?

Much faster.

quote:

Or do you shoot both barrels at once?

That's silly.

500:
Did you ever shoot a NRA High Power Military Match with a bolt rifle?
I'll have to disagree with you. With practice, you can work the bolt while the gun is in recoil and be ready for another shot when the sights are on target. I've never timed it, but I've seen some pretty fast bolt shooters. I'm not one of them.

I may be stupid, but I ain't silly. Why is shooting both barrels from a double silly? If you have a double, and an animal is going to eat you, why not shoot both barrels? I'd rather have a broken shoulder than be dead.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Hoinkey brings up an interesting point.
With the large calibers used on Doubles, can you bring the rifle back on target after recoil, as fast as I can work the bolt on a bolt action?

Much faster.

quote:

Or do you shoot both barrels at once?

That's silly.

500 Grains is right here,Both barrels at once defeats the purpose.

As far as the first question, it depends on the shooter. When I lived in CA I was a member of a realy great range, the South Bay Rod and Gun Club in San Diego. I have seen a lot of double rifle shooters at the tune up pre safari shoots the club would sponsor. We would shoot from field positions at stationary and moving targets. Some guys shoot so well that I swear they could shoot trap with their 470's, other guys were so slow, so afraid of recoil and so generaly inept that they would be better off hunting with a good sized rock.

It all comes down to ability, I can empty my 458 rem 700 offhand (3+1) into the vitals of a buff target at 50 yards in just under 3 seconds.
I have shot a 470 searcy, a 375 flanged searcy and a 470 Kreighoff in to the same target, 2 shots in under 1/2 a second with the bullet holes usually 3 inches apart.

I don't think that I am all that great but a lot of people who own these guns can't shoot the 2 rounds as fast (and hit the target) as I can empty my 458 on the target.

Oh and by the way as far as the single shot, I am considering a Ruger #1 in stainless 375H&H.
Bears, Moose and maybe even Africa.

Let the condemnations fly.

So as to fend off the plague that the members of the DRRS have probably spellcast upon me, let me say, that I would much rather have a double in 450 NE #2, 450/400, 470 NE, 500 NE, or 500/416 NE than any old bolt gun. That being said, I have to consider that I have about 5 years of higher education left to complete.

For the cost of a double (even an inexpensive one) I could pay for a minimum of 4 semesters (probably more like 6 semesters) of classes, books, and various other college related expenses. I can pick up a model 70 and have it converted to Lott all for about $1,000.00. So I cannot really justify buying a double at this stage of my life. But rest assured, I do pine for one. PWN375 is my brother and I have shot his doubles (500/416 NE, 45/70, 303 brit) in the past (I love shooting doubles by the way) and look forward to shooting them in the near future.

But if speed is the issue, I think I shoot a bolt gun fairly fast as I get the 3 down plus one in the pipe shot and three reloaded and shot (that is a total of seven for you "special" people) in an average time span of about 23 seconds (By the way I hit the target everytime, that counts for something).

Aw hell, maybe I will just find a rusty old 45/70 single shot and call it good. Oh, almost forgot, I have a line on a Martini Henry in 577/400. Maybe...

Cheers,

Brian

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
500:
Did you ever shoot a NRA High Power Military Match with a bolt rifle?

Only with semi-autos.

If you want to compare speed for yourself, take your bolt DGR to the range along with a SxS 12 gauge shotgun with the hottest magnum loads you can get.

Shoot 2 shots at a 10 yard target with the bolt. Shoot fast but hit the target.

Do the same with the 12 gauge.

Repeat.

It will be obvious which is faster.

I side brained an elephant that came down a bit slowly. I probably hit the half of the brain that is less critical, because although she went down butt first then front next, the effect was not quite as fast as a typical brain shot. However, as she was going down I put my second shot through her chest. (always put a shot through the chest for insurance) This was with a .500 dbl. No person I know can work the bolt of a DGR fast enough to reproduce that second shot.

The bird hunting analogy is a good one. Texas quail hunters who want to shoot 2 bird use double barrel shotguns, not bolt actions.

Brian, I can tell you the Lott is a great DG gun...I shoot the Ruger and did my bull ele at 30 feet...I understand where you are coming from...Get he gun, get your education and then buy your D DG rifle....
I have a Champlin Famars in 450#2 I am taking to the Selous next Ju8ly...50 weeks but whose counting...

Mike

If your going to go the Lott/Mod 70 route I suggest you consider using a Pre-64 action. You won't have the problem with not being able to get the safety off if the bolt comes up a little from the full downward position as happened to one contributor here.

IMHO the double rifle is a single shot in thick jess except during a charge. One must never fire the left barrel without reloading the right barrel first in thick jess when trying to take one out of a group. You need to keep the left barrel in reserve in case of an unexpected charge from another member of the herd. Most charges come from an animal that was not the target animal. Out of 10 eles I have shot I was charged on two seperaate occasions by other cows in the herd. I was carrying a double in one case and a bolt in the other. I had plenty of time to reload a bolt on both occasions.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Honkey:

Hey all you "instantly available second shot" advocates.............

Have any of you guys ever hunted birds, dove, duck, quail or pheasant? If you or someone else misses a bird with the first shot how often do you get it with the second? Think about it not very often. It works the same with big game and dangerous game. IMHO

Well I guess if you don't down him with the first shot with a double, or a bolt rifle, you are just going to say "well I'm not going to shoot him again, I might miss!"

The quoted post posts is the dumbest post I've ever read. The fact is you can botch the first shot on an ele with any type rifle, and haveing to pull the muzzels back down and re-establish sight picture is the result of the second shot with any firearm. The difference is, with a double pull down, and re-sight, is all that is required, and with a bolt the working of the bolt is mixed into that opperation,between every shot, and because of that working of the bolt, between each shot,I don't understand the misconception that the double is slower for the third shot. Absolutely WRONG,the second is much faster,with a double, and third shot is about even with the bolt, while the fourth shot is far ahead of the bolt!Considering the shooters are equil in their skill level.

I'd like to know where one gets the idea that Elephant are always brained with the first shot, simply because he is standing still. The frontal brain shot is botched more often then it is made, with the first shot!

Buffalo, or Ele, give me a good double rifle every time. If I happen to be armed with a bolt, or even a single shot, you can bet the cost of your next ele hunt, if the first shot doesn't do it, I'm going to shoot again, if I have time!

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Hoinkey brings up an interesting point.
With the large calibers used on Doubles, can you bring the rifle back on target after recoil, as fast as I can work the bolt on a bolt action? Or do you shoot both barrels at once?

TJ, stop, and think about the question you just asked!

I don't think a double rifle has any bigger recoiling rounds than the bolt rifles used for hunting Elephant! Both recoil out of the sight picture, but with the bold you not only have to pull the rifle back down on target, but work a bolt between each shot. With the double you simply put the rifle back on target and fire! Addtionally, if you fire both barrels at once, and you were going to miss with your first shot, you would miss with both barrels!

What-ch-thank Hoss?

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:

quote:

Originally posted by Honkey:

Hey all you "instantly available second shot" advocates.............

Have any of you guys ever hunted birds, dove, duck, quail or pheasant? If you or someone else misses a bird with the first shot how often do you get it with the second? Think about it not very often. It works the same with big game and dangerous game. IMHO

I think you've stumbled onto something there with the bird hunting comparison.

There seem to be a large percentage of bird hunters today using double guns O/U, SxS (configuration doesn't really matter).

The the other side of the question you bring up is a good one... why aren't there more bird-hunters out there with bolt-action shotguns?

The quoted post posts is the dumbest post I've ever read.

What does that mean?

Hey New Guy, I got the wrong quote! I was talking about the part that said it only take one shot always to brain an elephant and that there is no need for a follow up shot because it might miss the spot as well! That somehow if you use a bolt rifle it would be better!
I edited the other post!
sorry abou that!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Hey New Guy, I got the wrong quote! I was talking about the part that said it only take one shot always to brain an elephant and that there is no need for a follow up shot because it might miss the spot as well! That somehow if you use a bolt rifle it would be better!

sorry abou that!

no worries

I strongly suspect that anyone that says your a poor shot if you miss the first shot at an elephant brain hasn't shot many elephants. I'm running about 50% kills on first shots at the brain. Elephant head movement, correct angle calculations and bullet performance can all affect the shot.

MacD37!
I guess we can agree to disagree on the speed of third and fourth shot speeds between doubles and bolts. I have tried both at the range and for me the bolt is quicker but not by much.

465H&H

BWN300MAG,
If you can afford an elephant hunt. I dont think you would have to worry a lot about the cost of a few years of higher education.
The price of an elephant hunt will buy a lot of higer education

Jarrod,
First of all do not worry yourself about my finances, I get by pretty good and I work like a damn dog while attending classes full time (including summer classes). As for the cost of my safari, well lots of patience and doing without brought that dream to fruition (also had to promise Ganyana my first born and left testicle).
Drrs members,
I notice that Judge G has posted his 450/400 W.R. in the classifieds. If you guys (Mac, Rusty, Tony, 500 you can chip in to since it was yor idea) cannot wait for me to get into the DRRS and the double rifle game... I promise to shoot everything from squirrels to Elephants with it and promise to never, never, never, ever touch a bolt gun again. Honest!

BWN300MAG,
First off I wasn't worried about your finances. Just making a statement was all.
Second dont get your panties all in a wad.
Third after acting like that I dont give a damn about your finances like I said it was only a statement