The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Where Do You Draw the Line?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
I'm always interested to read everyone's thoughts on the "what's enough gun" threads, because experience is so varied. The 9.3x62 threads going around now sparked this question. The great 375 H&H is generally thought to be the minimum for DG and is legislated as such in many countries. But, Ganyana and many others have killed a pile of DG with the 9.3x62 Mauser. Most experienced hunters think there is virtually no difference between loads that vary only 100 fps or only 20 grains of bullet weight, and that is even more true with today's premium bullets. Now my 35 Whelen Improved is a virtual match for the ballistics of the 9.3x62, throwing a 275 gr bullet at 2425 fps, so it should be sufficient as well, given properly constructed bullets. And if it is, then surely the 338 Win Mag is as well. And so on, and so on . . . Just where do YOU draw the line, if there were no laws to legislate minimums for DG? | ||
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Just where do YOU draw the line, if there were no laws to legislate minimums for DG? There is no line. If you have had sufficient experience with DG hunting (Buffalo in particular)you will be relying more on accuracy and on shot placement to prove the point you are trying to make. There are many out there who have probably taken out more Buffalo with a 7 Rem Mag than they have with their 40+ calibers.  | |||
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The 7X57 was probably the most used caliber in culling operations. If one knows the animal physiology and is careful, the smaller calibers would work, but are you going to travel half way around the world on a limited time basis, hunting an animal that you are not familiar with and trust that you can make the shot with a smaller caliber? Knock yourself out.  Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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I draw the line at the .375 H&H.  | |||
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Really? | |||
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243 Win. Big enough for anything in NA......just as good anywhere in the world. Good bullets of course. Shot placement is a given.   | |||
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A lot of people over the years have used less than the 376 H&H for dangerous game. Most of them succeeded. Some of them died. | |||
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We should also proof read our posts.OOPS (376 H&H meant 375H&H. | |||
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a .22 has been used to kill elephant. | |||
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Many cartridges can and have done the job. However, "We as responsible hunters should respect the laws and use the correct caliber." Mike | |||
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I too have a 35 Whelen improved and have given some thought to taking it with me for a DG Safari. But, so much to do and so little time to do it all. I am postive it would do fine on buffalo and the cats. A well placed solid in the 35 would crater an elephant as well but I suspect the margin of error on a brain shot would not be as great as with a heavier caliber. We seldom get to choose But I've seen them go both ways And I would rather go out in a blaze of glory Than to slowly rot away! | |||
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A sharp stick and moderately heavy rock.  | |||
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fujo--you nailed it. that's pretty much it...I've taken four leopards, but the one that died the quickest was the Zambian cat shot with a Jarrett .300. He was stone dead in midair falling from the tree. The other three, taken with a .375, had the nerve to bound out of the tree, after the lone shot. venda--instead of posting a new response, you can actually edit your original post by visiting the little icon in the bottom right corner--- | |||
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I doubt it. Is there proof out there? | |||
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My "line" is the 9.3x62 and It has provided me great results up till now (touch wood). | |||
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This subject keeps cropping up and never fails to amaze me. Accurate shot placement is obviously the key and allows for the lighter calibres to be used, but accurate shot placement more often than not depends on having the perfect set up and the ability. The majority of hunt opportunities have to be taken just as they present themselves and that often means a less than perfect angle, and or brush cover. It seems that the majority of those suggesting the smaller calibres have less experience of the real thing and those who have been in a tight spot or two, or have lost wounded game go with the correct choice which is undoubtably " use enough gun " | |||
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My opinion is that times have changed, the hunter have changed and calibers have changed. I have no doubt that there are caliber smaller than the .375 H&H Mag that can succesfully kill dangerous big game animals, thinking specifically about the thick skinned dangerous game like, elephant, buffalo, hippo and rhino. Clients come on a very expensive dangerous game hunt e.g. elephant. They book the safari according to the required minimum days. If there was no line drawn on a caliber that can successfully take down an elephant with the least problems, clients might come with strange calibers to maybe try and prove that it could be done with a smaller caliber. Now...the client wounds the elephant and spend days tracking a dangerous wounded animal and eventually he runs out of days and the animal is lost. He still has to pay for it and someone else has to take down this very agressive and dangerous animal.People just don't have the time or money to take chances. People (Hunters) have changed.You do not find a client that have shot 30 or more elephant that come on a paid safari and know the physiology of an elephant back to front. They usually come to hunt an elephant once in his lifetime and even if he has studied it in books, still has to rely on the professional hunter to tell him when and where to shoot.With a smaller caliber the risk is there to wound the animal if not placed perfectly. Not all, but most clients get buckfever when hunting something that can kill you. Not always from fear but rather from addrenalin and exitement. This causes you to get the jitters and if there is not perfect shot placement with a smaller caliber, you run into problems. You will never find a professional hunter with enough experience, backing up a client with a small caliber even if he has hunted many elephant, are calm and knows exactly where to place the bullet. Situations and the angle that the animal is standing or charging from, differs nearly every time. he will most definitely use a big stick for less margin of error! In short...I think the reason for having a minimum caliber for dangerous game hunting is more to protect the client himself and his investment as well as the professional hunter and trackers from getting into a dangerous situation and the .375 as a minimum would be the most tried and tested on a hunt as such. Victor Hunting Safaris Africa | |||
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Victorhunt: There is a whale of a difference with a first, well taken shot (with all things being equal) by a caliber inferior to the .375 Mag to a follow up on a wounded DG animal with that same inferior caliber. It would be sheer folly (stupidity) going after a gut-shot Buffalo in a thicket with a 7mm but rather, more sensible in attempting this adventure with something of substance in 40+ class. Any self respecting, sensible, weathered PH would settle for nothing under .470 as his working tool to cope with such situations which can and mostly come about with a badly placed shot from ANY caliber! I know of one chappie (very well known PH - name witheld) who swore by the .375 until he got rear-ended; needless to say he upgraded to .416 and in recent years thought the .470 was even more appropriate. As far as paying clients with limited experience, time etc., yes, they need to respect the minimum caliber requirements which have been set in place for a reason and also to avoid a possible run in with the Lacey Brothers | |||
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Gentlemen, the minimums are set for a good reason, and that reason is for the safari industry that tends to have hunters who are hunting animals they may have never hunted before, If they have hunted them, for most, they have maybe shot two or three things like cape buffalo, and elephant most will not hunt more than one or two, at most, in their lives. This fact limits one’s understanding of proper angle to reach the vital organ they want to hit from any angle other than the classic broadside. The people who cull for a living are not limited to a few days or obligated to pay a large trophy fee for animals wounded and lost, just must make an attempt to sort them out. When you are culling 50 animals at a time you get to learn where to shoot them no matter witch end is pointed at you. These guys can justify the use of small calibers for all their shooting no matter the animal. The average client hunter is lucky to identify the species he is looking at, much less a proper angle to the heart or brain. This is the guy the minimum was designed for. IMO, the minimum has more to do with the average shooter than the ability of the cartridge to kill certain animals. My personal bottom cartridge limit for animals like lion, Cape buffalo and larger is 9.3X52 or 74R, not my first choice, but will do the job. For the leopard just about any deer rifle will do if hunting over bait. Here, IMO, the proper scope, and the accuracy of the rifle is far more important than the size of the bullet. However the bullet’s construction is a major concern in this case. The bullet needs to open very early on impact, but stay together so as not to blow a 10 inch hole on the off side of the cat. In this case the legal minimums are quite small in most places, and I would have no problem shooting leopard on bait with a 243 Win with a 100 gr Nosler partition or North Fork soft point. As I said earlier here the most important thing is being able to see the cat clearly and enough accuracy to place the bullet on one particular spot on his hide. ........................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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There are hunting rifles and there are stopping rifles. Will your hunting rifle have to become a stopping rifle? The bullet technology has changed since these laws were written, making smaller calibers perform like bigger calibers. It also makes the larger calibers perform even better.I have no doubt a 338 Win mag would perform adequately on buffalo "most of the time" but the cutoff at 375 or 9.3 is a good idea. A certain percentage of buffalo, elephants or what have you are lost or bite back each year. Having these rules keeps that percentage lower than if more smaller calibers were put on the list. I still would rather shoot a buffalo through the heart with a 30-06 than a .470 through the guts. I hunt, not to kill, but in order not to have played golf.... DRSS | |||
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Yes. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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What proof do you want? I've read quite a few books on Africa and African hunting. The reference is somewhere in my library and I don't really want to try thumbing through several thousand pages to find it. The story went a bit like this as I recall... One chap (old story) had the idea based on his knowledge of elephant physiology that a well place .22 could kill an elephant. He tried it and it worked. Bragged about it in a bar and was called a liar so he took a guy into the bush and shot another. The author went on to say that these were the only two ever shot (to his knowledge) by a .22. So how did he do it? I guess elephant plumbing is much like the hydralics on an L1011. It all comes together in a bundle somewhere near/between the front legs. A perfect shot and even a .22 can penetrate enough to open up some arteries. The elephant bleeds out and dies. It takes awhile but it works. Now is it safe? No Ethical? No Stupid? Yes | |||
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fujoputu, Sort of disagree with this statement as even in a charge scenario the bullet has to be well placed in order to bring down the animal which can be done with the .375 and upwards. I did say sort of disagree. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Well me too. I put that in just to illustrate that bullet placement is everything. But extra horsepower is also nice. I hunt, not to kill, but in order not to have played golf.... DRSS | |||
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I am guessing Harry Selby would disagree with you. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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A .22 Hornet might have enough steam to conclude the required length of travel - not so sure for .22LR though and if not mistaken the .22 Magnum was not around in those days. | |||
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as I recall it wasn't a heart shot... just some important plumbing | |||
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In my observation of the threads here the hunters (Typically but not always) that want to use a small caliber have not hunted DG. The hunters that have been there and have experience are good with the minimum of 375/9.3. My personal experience is I have hunted buffalo, used a 460W, a croc and was an observer on a lion hunt, friend used a 416. On my first hunt I was in RSA and the place had a couple dozen "friendly farm raised buff" that we were not hunting but could observe at close range, less than 10 yards from the truck. It made me a believer in large calibers. That all said I do agree with MacD37 that on leopard a smaller high velocity rifle with the proper bullets may work better than a big bore due to the small size of the target. But that is based on never having seen a leopard outside a zoo. Mark | |||
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Okay... I had to find the reference. Take it or leave it. Not all that many "official" documents from back then. Peter Capstick Page 114-116 Safari -the last great adventure | |||
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