OK... I've finally bought my first "DGR" in 458 Win Mag. I might eventually have it converted to a Lott but that's another story for another time.

I've asked in the optics forum but really didn't think I was talking to enough African hunters so I brought the thread here...

How long does scope eye relief really need to be on a rifle such as this? It should weigh about 10.5 pounds "all up".

I rarely have problems with eye relief but this is my first rifle with more recoil than a 375H&H and frankly, I don't know what to expect or prepare for. I've shot a few through the years but didn't pay any attention to eye relief or what scope was on them.

It seems that there are very few scopes that even offer 4" which I thought would be the minimum I might need and that led me to believe that maybe I was being too cautious.

I know that I really don't want to be stuck with a scope with a 20mm objective lens.

I'd really prefer something that will transmit more light such as a 36mm up to 42mm objective and don't mind springing for a premium European scope if it would help.

$bob$

All my 458 win mags weigh less than10 lbs and I will be lightening one up to around 7.5 lbs loaded ....Possibly even 7 lbs..A fixed 2.5 leupold is a great 458 scope .. but the 1-4 is great also..... A heavy reticle would be nice in most circumstances , but not necessary.. . What rifle do you have .. does it have express sights ?? A 458 doesn,t kick enough to need to be all big and clunky ....Nice trim rifles like the model 70 African or essespecially the whitworth , or Alaskan model Mark Xs are nice to pack around with you ....JMO and experience. 4 " eye relief is pretty important to me , ,Getting ringed by a 458 would flat hurt....5" would be better...

LDHunter,I spent over a couple of hours in a gunstore this year trying the scopes out.Being a customer there yor a long time I was given alot of attention and went as far as taking different model scopes out the store and trying them.I tried the top end Zeiss,Swarovski,Shcmidt and Bender,Leoplold and Zeiss Conquest.The Leopold offers more eye relief than all other scopes.This is probably going to be my choice if I get a Lott or 458WM.

I can't even imagine shooting a 7.5# 458. You want as much eye relief as you can get once you go over 375h&h. The VXIII 1.5x5 offers almos 4 1/2" @ 1.5x & more than 3.5" @ 5x. It's enough to keep you out of trouble when you have to shoot from an odd angle.

If you are hunting elephant, you will need all the field of view you can get.

100 feet at 100 yards is the least I would ever suggest w a scope. And a peep sight is better situational awareness and view of the target.

This leaves out any of the inexpensive Luepold scopes. (1-4 or 1.5-5).

Take a look at the new Swarovski 1-6 EE. It is 30 mm tube w 100 foot FOV with extended eye relief and 125 feet FOV with normal eye relief.

Andy

I can't imagine shooting a 7.5 pound 458 either... I bet it'd give me a headache the first shot.... <OUCH>

Soooo... Is 4" long enough? Therein lies the question. It appears that we have one vote for a full 5".

$bob$

My .458 Lott carries a Leupold 1.5X5 20mm scope. Plenty of scope for the type of gun that you have and for what you are hunting. And, mind you, bright enough for the hunting that you will do with it, much of what will be more up close and personal than with other calibers and for the type of African animal that you will hunt with it. By the way, that is one of the scopes highly recommended by Leupold for a dangerous game rifle like the Lott or the .458 Win. Mag. You can certainly buy more expensive rifle scopes and that is up to you, but I have over 30 Leupolds on my rifles and not one failure to date. And I have killed everything from elephant on down to steenbok and all of the big five (except leopard, which I plan on getting this year), as well as croc and hippo with those scopes. Others will have their recommendations and stories, but for me and IMHO, the leupold is a great scope.

Bob
When you convert to the lott you will then need all the eye relief you can get. The little Leupold's give you the most. European scopes are very nice but just won't work for this cartridge for most people. I have a 1X4 on my lott and 1.5X5 on my 505 Gibbs. I like them both equally and they gather plenty of light for all the African hunting I've used them for. A 1.75X6 might do alright too and that is what I have on my 416 Rigby but now have seen three of these break on other peoples rifles. It's not scientific but now don't quite trust that size for the real kickers. A straight 2.5X would be fine too if you could find one. Personally I like having the 4X or 5X top end for the occasional long shot that a Lott is capable of taking. Watch you eyebrow!

I believe that once you have had alot of practice shooting targets with a scope, it becomes better than iron sights on large game up close.I've missed things at close range (25yds) because I didn't have a scope.Once you get the sun at an odd angle combined with long grass between you and your game,you won't see the game unless you have a scope.I once had this happen to me while black powder hunting before our province allowed the use of a scope on muzzleloaders.I was hunting an area that I valued deeply,with plenty of giant whitetails and as I was finishing up an unsuccesful days hunt and only 50 yds away from my pick-up I saw a bunch of deer bodies glistening in the sun and in the high grass 20 or so yards in front of me.I saw the dark figure of an enormous buck straight in front and shouldered my rifle.I could not make out a clear target so I could shoot,so I took my eye off the deer to get closer.That was the last I ever saw of him.I knew right there that if I had a scope I would have returned home with a deer that would never have been forgotten.If this was dangerous game a scope could have saved your life.

Longer eye relief is better, of course. But what is often overlooked is length of pull.

If your rifle has a too short LOP, then you will be more apt to crawl the stock and get a scope cut, as well as a thumb knuckle punch in the nose.

If your LOP is on the longer side, then in my experience you can get by with as little as three inches or so of eye relief.

Problem is, most factory DG rifles these days are built with a too short LOP, ranging from 13.5 to 13.75 inches. At the upper end, say, 13.75, most, like me, are still okay. No blood, no scar.

But for a six footer with a normal neck length, a 14.25 to 14.75 inch LOP would be better and would make a three inch eye relief scope a non-biter.

Having just been through the challenge of selecting a scope, I opted for the Leupold 1.5-5 x 20MM. Twice, in fact.

I have a very light 375 Weatherby Mag (weighs in at under 7 lbs with this scope) and in replacing the scope that was on it, I wanted a lot of eye relief. Not sure what I was thinking when I got this rifle, but I've had it 35 years, so have forgotten...

Anyway, on the second scope, I was looking for the right choice for a 375 H&H for my wife. Again, the Leupold was the best choice - mainly due to eye relief.

I also talked to the folks at Leupold and came away with my original choice intact. And besides 6 or 7 Leupold scopes that I already own, I also have two Zeiss scopes and one Schmidt & Bender. So my menu included the european glass as well. I just like the eye relief enough to opt for the Leupold.

Nikon has a new line coming out soon and the 2.5x10x42 has a constant eye relief of 4". I would think that they would also have some models with less magnification. There is the one Euro Model I think it is from Nickels that is made for magmun rifles as it has a 5" eye relief. I saw it some where on AR. You have several different reticle choices with it.

Thanks for all the great input. It appears that the Leupold VX-III 1.5-5 with it's generous 4.4" of eye relief is the overwhelming favorite amoung those that have been there and done that.

I thought I wanted some of the features that the more expensive European scopes offered but it appears that those features aren't that important in a DGR scope.

$bob$

I use a leupold shotgun model (vx-1 or 2) in 2-7x33 and the 1-4. They have the longest eye relief that Leupold offers (4.9 and 4.7 respectively)and the heavy duplex recticle. Now the parallax is set to 75 yards, but I talked to them and they can change it if I wish but I havn't as of yet.

I have a 10 lb. 458 and it wears a Leupold 1x4. It works perfectly on this rifle, only complaint I have are the rings are a little to high for my liking. It is a sobering thing to pull the trigger and watch that scope come back at you. Personally, I wouldn't want anything but a Leupold on mine. I have a Schmidt & Bender 1 1/4x-4x on the shelf that I wish I could use on it but there is no way, the eye relief is just not there.

I'm with UseEnoughGun and mrlexma on this one. I'm only 5'10" and when I was fitted for a 450 Dakota, my LOP was right at 14" for that very reason. I also think straight tube objective scopes look more correct in big bores as well. Given the Leupold 1.5X5X20mm has great eye relief and durability, that is my recommendation. One word of cautin regarding that rifle, it's way too light! I had a Browning Safari in 458 that only weighed 7lb (empty) and if your rifle is that light, I guarantee it will knock your dick in the dirt! jorge

jorge,

That wasn't me with the lightweight 458. It was gumboot458.

I've already had two torn retinas presumably from hard kicking rifles and have no interest in a lightweight 458.

Mine weighs 9 pounds just like it came from the factory and I imagine will be around 10.5 pounds full up.

$bob$

ANYTHING UP FROM 4" WILL SERVE YOU WELL , LEUPOLD VARIPOWERS HAVE THE BEST RELIEF AND WHEN TURNED RIGHT DOWN ALMOST ACT LIKE A PEEP SO THEY ARE FAST TO AIM AT SHORT DISTANCE .. AS LONG AS THE STOCK FITS YOU AND YOU ARE NOT LEANING FORWARD TO GET COMFORTABLE , YOU WILL BE FINE WITH 4.4.

I HAVE HAD AN EQUAL NUMBER OF PEOPLE HUNT WITH ZEISS , SWAROVSKI AND LEUPOLD , I HAVE ONE OF EACH AND I HAVE TO SAY THAT FOR THE PRICE AND PERFORMANCE LEUPOLD ARE EXCELLENT ...GREAT CHOICE

quote:

Originally posted by LDHunter:
Thanks for all the great input. It appears that the Leupold VX-III 1.5-5 with it's generous 4.4" of eye relief is the overwhelming favorite amoung those that have been there and done that.

I thought I wanted some of the features that the more expensive European scopes offered but it appears that those features aren't that important in a DGR scope.

$bob$

LDHunter, I think you'll find most Europien scopes to be fairly short in the eye relief department, in most cases. Addtionally, they tend to be heavy, and bulky as well.

The choices for "ALL" the sighting equipment on a DGR is something that takes a little thought. Just the scope is not all that is invloved, but the selection of the mounting system, the reticle choice, field of view, and the scope's physical compatability with the other componants of the rifle. Things like a objective that is too large, makeing it necessary to mount the scope too high,and/or too far back, to avoid it's contact with the rear iron sights. Should it have a lighting system included, and if so what kind.

The thing is, a DGR is a specialty firearm, and needs to be set up for the job it was made for. My choice for this type of bolt rifle is:

First before we think about a scope, we need to make sure which irons we want, and no DGR should ever go into the field without good iron sights. NECG sights are the place to go for these componants, but before you decide on which to get from them, we want to make sure they can be seen over the scope bases when the scope is removed, from the Quality QUICK RELELEASE rings, and bases, that should hold any scope you choose. You should look at the Leupold 1.5-5, with a 30mm tube, and with a #4 German reticle, with an illuminated crosshair apex. In WARENE, TALLEY, or similar, that absolutely returns to zero after removal, and replacement!

A well tuned CRF bolt rifle, with good irons, lighted reticle, post, and cross hair reticle, 30MM tube, 4" eye relief, scope in quality QR rings, and bases, chambered for your 458 Win Mag, or even better, 458 LOTT, and you have a real DGR, with a scope that covers all things good about a glass sight!!

Mac,

Thanks... I think I'll print that and save it.

I consider myself to be pretty dang good at outfitting a medium or small game rifle with equipment but this is a fairly new world for me.

Thanks Again,
$bob$

I have to agree with jorge and Mike. LOP if correct will allow you to use Euro scopes with limited eye relief safely. I'm 5'10" and 14"-14.25" LOP seemS perfect for me. The Leupold 1.5x5 is very popular but I no longer own one. In the field at 5x they lack light gathering in my experience. The 30mm version may be better. Personally I think the 1x4 Leupold or the 1.75x6 are better choices and moderately priced.

Mark

I use a Leupold 1-4x scope on my 416 Taylor, and a Leupold fixed 3x on my 470 Mbogo. I have shot Dave's 470 Mbogo with a Luepy 2.5-8x on it, and Don_G's 416 Rem Mag with a Luepy 1.75-6x scope as well. They all have worked well for me.

LOP does make a big difference. The LOP on my Taylor is less than my 470 Mbogo, and I do have to be a little more aware of a potential forehead ding with the Taylor, even though it kicks half as much.

After buff hunting in Tanz, I am now more inclined towards a variable with a higher power setting. There were a couple instances where a little additional power would have been useful for picking shooting lanes through the brush and branches. IMnewHO, the 1.75-6x and/or 2.5-8x would be better for cape buff hunting than my fixed 3x or 1-4x. Elephant at spitting distances though, could be a different story...I am not qualified to say.

FWIW,
Canuck

Mark: You are correct about the lack of light transmitting limitations of all straight tube scopes with small objective lenses, but my theory is that for those big rifles, just about all hunting is done in broad daylight. For hunting Cats in low light, I would definetly go with a bigger objective lens. The low power Leupold variables I think offer the best combination of eye relief and durability. jorge

,.,.,There has been alot of good input here .... Since my choices are a bit unique I will try to explane them as they took decades of trial and error to be arrived at .... Rifle fit has alot to do with hitting your target...It also has alot to do with being able to operate your rifle properly....I,m 5'9" tall weigh 255 lbs and have 18" right bicep and short fingers..... Cycleing a bolt while the rifle is [ in the pocket] shouldered , is VERY Important ............... As PH,s have stated ,it usually takes 2,3 or 4 shots to drop heavy and dangerous game.... Richard Harland had a good article in a recient Big Bore Journal where he discussed," shoulder cycleing " of the bolt.....His conclusions were it would be a good way to get a jam , mainley from short cycleing the bolt....I agree .. and totally disagree......My primary 458 has a 12 15/16" lop and wears a leu.1-4..My 416 Rem has a 13" and wears a Burris Sig. Select 1.5-6x40 .My 458 lott I had shortened up to 13"and it worked well with the factory express sights and a 4xBurrsi Short Mag scope and it doesn,t have a brake on it yet....But when I put substantially lower express sights on it I couldn,t get them to line up naturally ......Even with alot of belt sander work..,I added a slip on recoil pad , that brought the lop to 13 5/8" and it is the most naturally pointing rifle I have ever shouldered....Good enough so my best off hand group with express sights is 4" at 100 m and 2 1/2 " 3 shot from kneeling.....with factory ammo...The rifle weighs 10 lbs loaded......I have no idea how tall Mr lexma is or how long his arms are but his recomendations for a 14" lop may reflect his stature.... Variable power scopes protrude 1/2 - 1" further back from the rear ring than fixed power scopes ... I don,t like the rear of the scope to be much further back than the back of the bolt ......My Interarms 458 Alaskan has a little more than 14" lop and it is difficult to cycle from the shoulder,, No doubt Yao Ming would find it short and cramped......That rifle wears a 1.5-4.5 Weaver scope that has to be quite a ways back to get good sght picture....comb height ,, drop @ heel and toe,,grip shape ,,,radius and thickness.. cheek and cast off along with the shooters shape and sighting requirements all combine to arrive at the correct lop......Useing shooting sticks ,, rests and supports for the rifle other than your own self can help to make up for a poorley fit rifle...And the only way to find out for yourself is by shooting the snot out of your rifle.....Only then will you be able to fire an accurate shot every second or 2 with your DGR.....A 2.5 x 3 x leupold fixed power scope give the most ammount of eye relief combined with fov and compactness.................

quote:

Variable power scopes protrude 1/2 - 1" further back from the rear ring than fixed power scopes ...

That is a very good point to keep in mind.

Cheers,
Canuck