The old-timer hunters said to wait until the lion is almost on you and shoot them in the mouth.

On your knees provides a more stable platform to shoot from, better visibility of the animal coming through the trees/brush, your point of aim is straight ahead eliminating the need to lead a running animal. And since you are on the ground probably less chance that you will panic and try to run (and get killed).

P.S. Never killed a lion but this worked on a charging bear that I killed about 5 feet off the muzzle during a bad situation.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

quote:

Originally posted by Kathi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tbSuGINWic


MacD37,

Link to Johan Calitz charge.

That video gives me chills everytime I watch it!!!

This was exactly the video I referred to in my earlier post. Old Pondoro Taylor would have been so proud to see this. Might look hair raising but in in actual fact as most of those old hunters have said, the result is pretty par for the course with least danger to everyone.

Now take a look at the other video on Utube called something like "lion charge on stupid hunters". This is an absolute disgraceful show of poor hunting and shooting with the chance of more humans getting shot than the lion.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I thought the guy was sitting on his butt. I'll have to watch again. What happens if they miss with both shots from a double?

Enough time to reload at 15 yards? With extractors?

The same thing that would have happened if the guy who killed the lion had missed with his first shot,with that bolt rifle, you'd get bitten, and scratched!

As far as reloading the double with lion charging at 15 yds, you wouldn't have time to even break the rifle open ejectors or not! But one thing sure you would have time get off two shots from the double, but certainly wouldn't have time to work a bolt, and fire a second shot on a missed charging lion at 15 yds with a bolt rifle! WHOT YA'LL THANK?

...............................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
As far as reloading the double with lion charging at 15 yds, you wouldn't have time to even break the rifle open ejectors or not! But one thing sure you would have time get off two shots from the double, but certainly wouldn't have time to work a bolt, and fire a second shot on a missed charging lion at 15 yds with a bolt rifle! WHOT YA'LL THANK?

...............................

I think you double rifle guys are delusional. Faster for two shots, no doubt! But after those first two you are holding an empty rifle(a club).

Reloading while a lion is charging....

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
The old-timer hunters said to wait until the lion is almost on you and shoot them in the mouth.

It is a practice that I have refined as what I call the 'jaw shot' as this effectively stops the Lion from biting you there after.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
It is a practice that I have refined as what I call the 'jaw shot' as this effectively stops the Lion from biting you there after.

I belive a shot to the jaw saved Chipman from a worse mauling.

I dig that movie with Calitz and Crouse but I have one question for your Lion hunters... why would the shooters fan out if they thought a charge was imminent? Here's my logic... the lion is probably gonna pick ONE target, in this case Ronnie, every other rifle will then have to shoot at the lion like skeet, in other words at angles, and varying angles at that because there is distance between shooters, sharpening the angle the shooter would have to use. Why not stand shoulder to shoulder, thus creating ONE target (for all intents and purposes) that way when the lion came toward the group, everyone would be shooting low-angle shots straight into the lion's front, lowering the chance of missing.

I realize that in the heat of the moment you have to do the best you can but in the video at least the narrator states because a charge is imminent the shooter spread out. Help me understand why this is preferable to everyone shoulder to shoulder shooting straight into the lion.


Gracias Amigos...

By spreading out, it guarantees that only one shooter - worst case - will get hit by the Lion and that each shooter will be unimpeded in taking whatever shot he has. Same reasons the military doesn't "bunch up".

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
It is a practice that I have refined as what I call the 'jaw shot' as this effectively stops the Lion from biting you there after.

I belive a shot to the jaw saved Chipman from a worse mauling.

I believe it also saved Ian Gloss from a worse mauling

http://africanhuntermag.com/MY%20DREAM%20LION.pdf


Link to the story/photos of Ian's lion attack.

quote:

By spreading out, it guarantees that only one shooter - worst case - will get hit by the Lion and that each shooter will be unimpeded in taking whatever shot he has. Same reasons the military doesn't "bunch up"

I guess I buy that for the military because in a firefight one grenade or RPG could for sure kill 5 guys. Bu lets say a guy comes running to you with a sword...if 5 guys are 20 yards spread out as each person starts firing, they would eventually end up pointing their weapons right at whichever target the dude with the sword chose... I think in this case the goal is to kill the lion, not necessarily to prevent a mauling, else one would not even pursue a wounded lion. Given that, I would rather have a guy on each side of me firing in the same direction as me than at angles which would lower the rate of hit and perhaps get me shot. Dunno, in any case, that was a hell of a shot and its amazing to see that lion go from killer to dead when his hair gets parted by the bullet.

Cheers.

Big whoop. That's why PH's make the big money. If you can't stand a few fang punctures and claw lacerations get out of the bush!

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
As far as reloading the double with lion charging at 15 yds, you wouldn't have time to even break the rifle open ejectors or not! But one thing sure you would have time get off two shots from the double, but certainly wouldn't have time to work a bolt, and fire a second shot on a missed charging lion at 15 yds with a bolt rifle! WHOT YA'LL THANK?

...............................

I think you double rifle guys are delusional. Faster for two shots, no doubt! But after those first two you are holding an empty rifle(a club).

Reloading while a lion is charging....

JBrown, if you think you are disagreeing with the post you quoted above, you better read it again!

There is no way anyone can break and re-load a double rifle with a charging lion within 15 yds! However there is no way a bolt shooter can work a bolt and get off a shot two on a lion that is missed when he is within 15 yds in a charge!

In the above seenario the double will get off two, the bolt will get off one, after that neither will do anything but get bit!

What the hell is delusional about that?

Now if you are saying that a guy with a bolt is better armed for four shots in a longer charge where both can get off four shots, the bolt will be behind for the first two, and about even for shot three, and behind again for shot four! If you don't believe that come on down and I'll show you is it fact! Most big bore bolt rifle hold one in the chamber, and three down, and gives you no advantage at all to a man who can use a double rifle!

The double versus the single debate interests me when it comes to charging animals. You could throw into the mix a semi-auto too, not that they are allowed to be used for hunting in Africa and they are generally not in the big bore stopper cartridges, but just to consider for comparative purposes with the other two actions for what I say next.

Being a lefty always using right-handed rifles, I have never practiced or wanted to be super fast in reloading. I have learned to make the first shot count and take a measured approach when reloading for another. I have shot multiple animals from mobs but always concentrate on each shot as if it is the first.

To my thinking, with charging animals coming in, if you miss a killing shot with your first shot then those same conditions that caused a miss will exist when you take your second with a double, or second, third, fourth ....etc, with a semi. Any one of the conditions that caused the first shot to miss; nerves/fear, buck fever, poor trigger control, poor sight acquisition, poor body positioning, etc, with be present for subsequent shots and these shots will have no more chance of connecting. Of course a misfire will throw a spanner in the works but I would probably be 100% safe in saying that there would not be a double shooter today who if he had a misfire on the first barrel would get the second firing in a close in charge. Every misfire I've seen seems to stun the shooter and he cannot comprehend very quickly what has happened, same as leaving the safety on.

This is why those old timers who had no backup always knelt to the charge and waited until they could not miss and as “fairgame” has said, most often shot the animal in the open mouth taking out the brain/spine for a sure killing shot.

Of course it will take a steady nerve to wait until the animal is close and even then if the eyes are closed and trigger jerked or an attempt is made to roll away while trying to shoot then I’m afraid you will be on the menu.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
The double versus the single debate interests me when it comes to charging animals. You could throw into the mix a semi-auto too, not that they are allowed to be used for hunting in Africa and they are generally not in the big bore stopper cartridges, but just to consider for comparative purposes with the other two actions for what I say next.

Being a lefty always using right-handed rifles, I have never practiced or wanted to be super fast in reloading. I have learned to make the first shot count and take a measured approach when reloading for another. I have shot multiple animals from mobs but always concentrate on each shot as if it is the first.

To my thinking, with charging animals coming in, if you miss a killing shot with your first shot then those same conditions that caused a miss will exist when you take your second with a double, or second, third, fourth ....etc, with a semi. Any one of the conditions that caused the first shot to miss; nerves/fear, buck fever, poor trigger control, poor sight acquisition, poor body positioning, etc, with be present for subsequent shots and these shots will have no more chance of connecting. Of course a misfire will throw a spanner in the works but I would probably be 100% safe in saying that there would not be a double shooter today who if he had a misfire on the first barrel would get the second firing in a close in charge. Every misfire I've seen seems to stun the shooter and he cannot comprehend very quickly what has happened, same as leaving the safety on.

This is why those old timers who had no backup always knelt to the charge and waited until they could not miss and as “fairgame” has said, most often shot the animal in the open mouth taking out the brain/spine for a sure killing shot.

Of course it will take a steady nerve to wait until the animal is close and even then if the eyes are closed and trigger jerked or an attempt is made to roll away while trying to shoot then I’m afraid you will be on the menu.

............................."IF"............

"If" a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his butt when he jumped! In this case "IF" is a very large word!

The fact is the only time someone needs to reload the chambers of a double rifle is when you have something like a Cape buffalo, or elephant that has been shot but is not down, and is trying to get away, or get to you from enough distance to allow a very quick re-loading!

You are correct, however, that one must try to make the first shot count, but some large animals in Africa do not seem to always succumb to a well-placed first shot, and “IF” that happens then the core of this thread becomes a factor in finishing what you started! The way you go about this is where the debate is here!

Many "FIRST SHOTS" can be right through the heart on things like Cape buffalo and still require several shots to put him down for the count, be they coming to you, or running away! The latter is most likely, but if he comes to you, you will need to hit the CNS to stop him in his tracks, because nothing else will! One of our African writers wrote a passage that has stuck in my mind! It reads: “Once a Buffalo puts together a concentrated charge, you will kill him, or he will kill you, there is no other choice!”

Things like a botched frontal brain shot on an elephant can, and often does turn him, If it doesn’t turn him, you pop him again in the brain area, but if it does the second shot is to try for heart/lung as he turns or the brain from behind the ear where the neck joins the head as he turns further, if you still do not put him down you then need to try to break the pelvic girdle or hip from the rear and not allow him to escape! If you don't get some more rounds into him before he gets out of the concession, or into a park where you can't follow, he is lost! Here is where your “make the first shot count” makes sense, but the frontal brain shot is not the easiest thing to accomplish, and is often botched! This is another place where ANGLE plays a big part in success or failure!

The example shown here on this thread is of a lion that is coming home to the hunter, on open ground, seemingly un-wounded and though the shooter has plenty of time to get off several shots with a bolt rifle, most are missing the lion. The misses are caused more by the fact that the shooter is having to deal with a constantly changing "LEAD" and "ANGLE" caused by his HIGHER THAN THE TARGET shooting position! The fix for that would have been to drop to his knees so that he is on the same level as the lion! This takes away the LEAD and ANGLE factor, and makes the shots straight into the oncoming target, because in that film the shooter is also the target of the lion's charge!

A severely wounded African lion can cover 100 yds in less than four second, and will not stop because you run dry without stopping him! In the case of the second film there are several professional hunters. If you will look at the second film closely you will see that the lion has zeroed in on the man who finally killed him. The shooters from the side, had to deal with LEAD, were missing because of it, but in this case no vertical angle, because of their ON THE KNEES positioning! The targeted shooter, however, had only to wait till the lion was close and stick a round straight into his face/neck area from the front, killing him instantly.

Still if you notice all the PHS involved went to their knees not knowing witch of them would be the target of the wounded lion's charge. So you see the going to the knees with a wounded lion has nothing to do with whether, or not you are covered with back-up, but because it is because it makes the shots much easier to hit that very fast moving target, without having to deal with LEAD, and ANGLE if you are the target, and only LEAD if you are not!

Once wounded most all dangerous animals in Africa will charge the shooter if the shooter is already in his FIGHT zone, and on Buffalo the FIGHT zone is a circle around him that is quite close, while the FLIGHT zone is a much wider circle and if you are in that zone he will usually run! Mark Sullivan knows this, and is why he purposely moves into the FIGHT ZONE of the wounded animal to cause a charge! You will notice he never does this when a wounded lion or Leopard is the target!

The lion however if wounded and has taken to hiding in thick cover will most often charge if you get close enough to him, and that is usually VERY close, so close that with a double rifle you are likely to get only two shots before he hits you if those two do not stop him. With a bolt you are LUCKY to get off more than one shot before he hits you, and if that doesn't stop him, you get bit and scratched! As I said before once a charge is started nothing will stop him but a CNS (central nervous system) hit! I can assure you a man who knows how to use a double rifle will get off two shots in the last 15 yds, while the bolt rifle will get one on a lion charge. If the two for the double, or the one for the bolt, doesn't stop him in a 15 yd charge, neither shooter needs to worry about a re-loading of the chamber, or chambers!

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
The double versus the single debate interests me when it comes to charging animals. You could throw into the mix a semi-auto too, not that they are allowed to be used for hunting in Africa and they are generally not in the big bore stopper cartridges, but just to consider for comparative purposes with the other two actions for what I say next.

Being a lefty always using right-handed rifles, I have never practiced or wanted to be super fast in reloading. I have learned to make the first shot count and take a measured approach when reloading for another. I have shot multiple animals from mobs but always concentrate on each shot as if it is the first.

To my thinking, with charging animals coming in, if you miss a killing shot with your first shot then those same conditions that caused a miss will exist when you take your second with a double, or second, third, fourth ....etc, with a semi. Any one of the conditions that caused the first shot to miss; nerves/fear, buck fever, poor trigger control, poor sight acquisition, poor body positioning, etc, with be present for subsequent shots and these shots will have no more chance of connecting. Of course a misfire will throw a spanner in the works but I would probably be 100% safe in saying that there would not be a double shooter today who if he had a misfire on the first barrel would get the second firing in a close in charge. Every misfire I've seen seems to stun the shooter and he cannot comprehend very quickly what has happened, same as leaving the safety on.

This is why those old timers who had no backup always knelt to the charge and waited until they could not miss and as “fairgame” has said, most often shot the animal in the open mouth taking out the brain/spine for a sure killing shot.

Of course it will take a steady nerve to wait until the animal is close and even then if the eyes are closed and trigger jerked or an attempt is made to roll away while trying to shoot then I’m afraid you will be on the menu.

eagle27,

Your comment on missing the first shot means you will automatically miss the second doesn't always hold water. The best shot in the world will sometimes miss his shot on a charging animal because it will be in motion and often that will be a very erratic motion. He may well zig when you had expected him to zag.

Last year I took a frontal on an elephant bull that had dropped his head in an apparent charge. Instead it was a mock charge and as my sear broke the elephant raised his head causing my bullet to land ten inches below where I had intended it to land. That has happened in somewhat similar fashions on two other elephants.

465H&H

quote:

Here is where your “make the first shot count” makes sense, but the frontal brain shot is not the easiest thing to accomplish, and is often botched!

When is it not botched?!

quote:

and as my sear broke the elephant

I sincerely hope this wasn't a failed single-trigger double rifle!

Was it a double-trigger double rifle?

How many polocks does it take to shoot four shots from a one-trigger double-trigger double rifle?

Will,

This polock has no trouble using a double triggered double rifle unlike some Scots I know.

"When the sear broke" means when the trigger released it!!!

465H&H

quote:

"When the sear broke" means when the trigger released it!!!

Scots are dense!

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
On your knees provides a more stable platform to shoot from, better visibility of the animal coming through the trees/brush, your point of aim is straight ahead eliminating the need to lead a running animal. And since you are on the ground probably less chance that you will panic and try to run (and get killed).

P.S. Never killed a lion but this worked on a charging bear that I killed about 5 feet off the muzzle during a bad situation.

Interesting that they all got down on one knee in the "Link to Johan Calitz charge".


How many of the 4 people fired ? The DR owner fired 2 shots ??? and of course the guy who got knocked over. Anyone else ?


.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

"When the sear broke" means when the trigger released it!!!

Scots are dense!

Apparently!!


465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
.

To my thinking, with charging animals coming in, if you miss a killing shot with your first shot then those same conditions that caused a miss will exist when you take your second with a double, or second, third, fourth ....etc, with a semi. Any one of the conditions that caused the first shot to miss; nerves/fear, buck fever, poor trigger control, poor sight acquisition, poor body positioning, etc, with be present for subsequent shots and these shots will have no more chance of connecting. Of course it will take a steady nerve to wait until the animal is close and even then if the eyes are closed and trigger jerked or an attempt is made to roll away while trying to shoot then I’m afraid you will be on the menu.

I am sure that the above described scenario has taken place more than once, but I have found that after a hasty and ill aimed first shot I tend to settle down and pay more intention to what I'm doing. Point in case: last December a flock of mallards came in to our decoys and flared before landing. I took a hurried shot at one and missed, then settled down and dropped two more dead in the water as they reversed their direction and tried to get away flying only a few feet off the water. I took the rear one first and then swung through and got the front one.

Of course the ability has to be there in the first place.

As far as the kineeling position is concerned, I recommend it for the FIRST, unhurried, shot, if conditions allow its use. It can be a very stable position and one which is much easier to assume than, say, the sitting position, which is even more stable. Assuming a shooting position from standing is not something which is done instinctively, it requires practice, but is well worth the trouble.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
I am sure that the above described scenario has taken place more than once, but I have found that after a hasty and ill aimed first shot I tend to settle down and pay more intention to what I'm doing. Point in case: last December a flock of mallards came in to our decoys and flared before landing. I took a hurried shot at one and missed, then settled down and dropped two more dead in the water as they reversed their direction and tried to get away flying only a few feet off the water. I took the rear one first and then swung through and got the front one.

Of course the ability has to be there in the first place.

As far as the kineeling position is concerned, I recommend it for the FIRST, unhurried, shot, if conditions allow its use. It can be a very stable position and one which is much easier to assume than, say, the sitting position, which is even more stable. Assuming a shooting position from standing is not something which is done instinctively, it requires practice, but is well worth the trouble.

xausa, I agree with all you say but I think you have misunderstood the reason for “ON THE KNEES” shooting position for a charging lion! It is not that it is more stable, even though it IS more stable! The reason is to make your rifle’s line of sight on the same level as the lion. If the lion is passing to someone else you still have to deal with lead, but not the high to low angle as well. If, however, the lion is charging YOU, then there will be no lead of vertical angle to deal with but simply shoot to center of mass on the in-coming lion as if he were standing still! With a double you want to fire your first shot at about 15 yds, and wait for him to get just enough closer till you get to the back trigger! This is the best shooting position for a charging lion because there is nothing to consider but bullet placement center of mass on a closing target!

The ducks are a good example of getting your crap together and doing some real shooting! However a lion closing on you fast is a zebra of a different stripe! I don’t know about you but ducks don’t rattle me as much as a roaring African lion coming to kick my butt! This is one place where muscle memory plays a big part in your instinctive shooting, and with the absence of lead& vertical angle to deal with makes it easier to avoid costly mistakes! Like everyone I make mistakes, but removing many of the draw-backs helps to avoid them to a great extent!

Evidently my reply did not make it clear, but I am quite aware of the benefits of shooting from the kneeling position at charging game.

They apply equally to charging buffalo, where shooting at the buffalo's nose gives a direct line to the brain, underneath the massive horns' boss, which has been known to deflect bullets fired from the standing position.

As far as being rattled by a charging lion, I have never experienced one, but I have experienced a charging rhino at very close range, and I was able to put one shot in which turned him and three more as he attempted to depart, included one loaded from my gunbearers hand. My experience showed me that, faced with such a situation, my training took over.

I might add that this was a charge by an unwounded animal, who had circled around behind us in order to charge us down hill, so it was totally unexpected and came from an equally unexpected direction.

There are additional benefits for the kneeling position, even in deer hunting. On more than one occasion, I have experienced confronting a deer in an open field, where both he and I were far from any kind of cover. By dropping to a knee, I changed my silhouette to the point that the deer failed to recognise the danger and actually walked in my direction, trying to determine what the strange shaped object might be. I suspect African plains game would react the same way, although I never took the opportunity to try it.

Interesting discussion.

After my thought on kneeling for shooting at charging game on the first page where most seemed to disagree with me, obviously some people do agree.

In the couple of instances I have found myself in, both times going down on one knee steadied me. The third time there was not enough time.

If time permits, I think I'd go down on one knee.

.

I do suggest that you practice from kneeling position if you think you might use it. I have found that with a heavy rifle I sometimes get rocked back and had to catch my self with my hand. Not good in a charge situation.

465H&H

465H&H

Agree re practice. The first time it happened to me, it was automatic
and everything went smoothly - thank god.

.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
There are additional benefits for the kneeling position, even in deer hunting. On more than one occasion, I have experienced confronting a deer in an open field, where both he and I were far from any kind of cover. By dropping to a knee, I changed my silhouette to the point that the deer failed to recognise the danger and actually walked in my direction, trying to determine what the strange shaped object might be. I suspect African plains game would react the same way, although I never took the opportunity to try it.

On more than one occasion I have had to spend a half hour with my pants at half mast picking cactus thorns out of my but because I had junped a muledeer and dropped onto my butt right on cactus to get a steady shot at a quickly dieapearing buck with my little Mannlicher Shoenauer 243Win rifle!

I think the whole idea of kneeling is to avoid shooting over them.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I think the whole idea of kneeling is to avoid shooting over them.

Yep, the target coming straight at you, a lot less movement of the gun.

.

And don't forget the lion in the second/Calitz clip was dragging a hind leg. If it had been under full power it might have been even more exciting.