mehulkamdar,

I think elephant and gaur are a tough game and dangerous, eventhough 8x57 Mauser or 7.62 Nato FMJ would bring the game down in the head shot at close range.

banteng is a subspecies of gaur which is tough and dangerous. In size gaur is bigger than banteng. I heard a person who had been mauled by a wounded banteng. He was a villager had nothing to do with the banteng hunt. The hunter shot the banteng with 30-06 Springfield and failed to stop it. The banteng ran away an hit the villager who was doing a routine job near the jungle. Fortunately, he was saved an healed.

You wrote : "There have been 5 permits for hunting leopard in Maharashtra in the past two months"

- Does it mean a local hunter can buy the permit
in order to hunt the leopard ?
- How much does it cost ?

Practically, we are not a handloader, it is forbidden in my country. We buy the factory ammo through the import agent.

- Do the hunter in your country reload the ammo ?

Thanks for your response

Abdi

I remember reading a story about an Englishman hunting a Gaur bull on foot. He was using a large bore Nitro rifle and wounded the animal. The bull then charged him and flung him many metres into the air, caught him on its horns and threw him again. Stomped on him, threw him into the air time and time again. Went away. Came back and had another go.

His trackers were sitting in a tree watching it all.

Sounded like fun. As long as the bull was stopped before the real "fun" begins. They sounded nasty and ranking at least with Cape Buffalo in terms of dangerousness.

NitroX,

About 40 years ago, a hunter wounded a Gaur Bull, and was following up the spoor. The shot had apparently damaged the lungs.
At some stage , the Gaur turned on and chased the hunter and his tracker. The tracker took off,and kept going. He returned with the hunter's mate, about 3 hours later. (This guy had apparently been hunting another part of the same hunting block.)
At the scene, they saw the Gaur sat in a bit of a puddle. The hunter put a shot in it's brain, and on rolling it over,found what was left of the hunter. The guy was only identified by his signet ring.
This happened in Central India, and made the local papers.
A Gaur in 'Musth' will charge unprovoked most of the time.
DJ.

DJ,

When you are next logged on, click the "my profile" icon at the top of the page...you have a PM...

Regards,

Pete

Banteng Raider,

Gaur are huge animals but they have almost been wiped out by the foot and mouth disease in the Southern regions of India where I live. They are definitely strong enough to teach a tiger good manners and I am sure a Gaur is capable of causing enormous damage if it gets the opportunity to do so. I have never seen Cape Buffalo, not having visited Africa, but I have seen Gaur in the forests around Mudumalai several times. From what I have read about the Cape buffalo's fearsome temper, the Gaur seem mild mannered in comparison, though, of course, freak incidents where unfortunate people get killed do take place.

As far as really big guns are concerned, I have seen practically ALL big game in India taken with rifled 12 bores. I don't think there are many Indians who could shoot a monster like the 600 nitro or bigger.

As far as the leopard permits are concerned, my government had a policy of enlisting professional shikaris to put down maneaters and rogue elephant in the past. They were paid the princely sum of Rs 250 (US$ 5) for this.

The Maharashtra state government recently sold 5 permits for shooting leopard which had been terrorising the Satara district. I have no idea whatsoever how the permits were given nor what they sold for. If I know India, some politically connected bigwig must have cornered all of them for some piddling price.

Crop protection permits which you can buy if you own agricultural land used to sell for Rs 50 (US$ 1).

Can any of the folks you have hunted in that particular region share some info on the use of machans for taking tiger and leopard. Anderson recounts using a folding charpoy (sp?) for the basis of a machan; does any one have a picture of one of these and maybe give a description of what they were like and how they were used. Some folks i have spoken to say it is a form of chair and others, a type of native bed consisting of a wooden frame and a rope base. Just trying to get a mental picture of some of the details mentioned in his books.

Regards

Pete

Pete,

The construction of machans was usually dictated by the availability of material, and the position of the bait.
ie.. For maneating cats(Tigers & Leopards)the remains would not normally be disturbed , other than securing them in some way.
Where baits (usually Goats for leopard and Buffalo for Tigers) were sited, the hunter had the luxury of siting the bait by a suitable tree.
Local beds(charpoys) were rarely used, as the rope squeaked at the slightest move.
Chairs were hard to come by in rural areas.
A platform was usually built at a safe height using natural material (branches etc ) and foliage was used to ensure there was no silhoutte.
In an emergency, one just sat on a suitable branch. Exceedingly uncomfortable as I found out to my cost.
Kenneth Anderson retired to Kenya,like Corbett, where he died.
A very close friend of Anderson's , Col. Don Blewett , who actually gave Anderson some considerable assistance in the writing of his books, currently resides in the town of Secunderabad , in India. His health, sadly, can best be described as poorly. He actually shot a very big and beautiful Tigress on a hunt with Anderson.I have seen the skin, and will endeavour to post a pic on this forum
Mehul, with respect, India had a large number of some of London's best large bore, mainly double rifles, which in the main made their way to Australia, and from there , apparently to the USA.
The use of shotguns on big game, including the paradox, is , I am aware quite common in India, but used to be seriously frowned upon in the 'old days'.
DJ.

NitroX,

if you had a chance to hunt the gaur, what caliber would you use ?

DJ,

I love the old big doubles, but it is absolutely expensive.

I have a friend in my country who owns a doubles which are 425 Westley Richards and 470 Nitro calibers. I think he is the only one in my country who has that kind of gun. Both are Westley Richards double rifle in good condition. His father bought it around 1950s. Since federal has put the 470 Nitro in their commercial ammo list, the cardtridge is no longer difficult.
All the cartdridges he got were missfired, so I did not see any blast.

BantengRaider, how are things in Jakarta these days? I used to live down the road from you in Bogor, but that was many tahuns ago.

BantengRaider

From my "vast" experience on Gaur (none) I would probably choose something from the .375 or larger. Preferably a .450 or .458 as I imagine they were mostly hunted in thick forest.

I can readily believe a lot of these animals and similar have been shot with shotguns and slugs in India and elsewhere. We agonise endlessly on these forums, but locals usually use what is most readily available and close at hand.

[ 11-28-2002, 06:12: Message edited by: NitroX ]

LE 270,

A very large number of old guns were nought in India by the big British cos and it wasn't unusual to see advertisements in The Hindu even two or three years ago by Westley Richards asking for old double rifles.

Big dealers like Tarachand Mehta and Paramjit Singh Sodhi made millions exporting these guns to Boss, Westley Richards etc while some like Rusi Jijina in Bombay kept their dealers' license only in order to hold on to guns that they would otherwise have to surrender due to our 3 guns per person limit post 1984. Also we had a below 8mm caliber limit which, thankfully, has been shot down by our Supreme Court a couple of weeks ago. With the very limited hunting opportunities, however, I cannot see any of the old big bores being used much nowadays.

Mehul,

At what price a good double in nitro calibre could be bought in India?

It is good to hear that 8 mm limit is lifted. Do you have local ammo for 8mm, 22 and 12 bore? Is it available at reasonable prices?

Do you see in future any trophy hunting to be allowed of deer and antelope, like cheetal, black buck, nilgai and sambar?

Saad

Saad,

Indian gun dealers used to quote whatever price attracted their fancy until big British gunmakers came in and started buying old guns. I have no idea what the charges would be and they would differ depending on make, caliber etc, but if you like, I could give you the addresses of the biggest dealers. You could deal directly with them, bargaining as hard as you like. Let me know and I will try and help.

Yes, we get ammunition for sub 8mm calibers - Sellier and Bellot ammunition is imported from Czechoslovakia and Eley and Lapua rimfire target ammunition is allowed to be imported by rifle clubs. Popular calibers are .315 IOF, .30-06, 7mm Mauser, and, of course, .303.

What is the scene in Pakistan like? Do post or e-mail me.

Wismon,

Everything is fine here. Thank you.
Have you ever gone hunting wild boar while in Indonesia ?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mehulkamdar:
[QB]Saad,

Mehul,

Indian gundealers and gunowners are very clued up on the current prices of doubles, and will quote prices straight out of the major UK dealers catalouges.ie in Bombay, a William Evans 500 express double, non ejector is priced at �15,000, delivered anywhere in the world. The condition of the weapon can best be described as poor.
DJ.

Mehul,

In Pakistan, there is no restriction on calibres except a few assault rifle calibres like Russian AK47 and AK74.

Imported ammunition is quite expensive like 7x57 cartridge for Rs. 50-70 ($1), 30-06 Rs. 125-200 ($2-3), .22 LR Rs. 7 ($0.12), 12 bore Rs. 30-50 ($0.5-1), 9mm Luger Rs. 30 ($0.5). Many brands like Winchester, S&B, Remington, Federal, Sako, Viri, RWS, Rotweil, etc are available.

POF 12 bore ammunition is reasonably priced i.e., Rs. 11 ($0.18) and 9mm Luger Rs. 10.

Double rifles are not generally available in market. There are people who collect such guns and they seldom sell any.

Saad

Speaking of hunting tiger... I was a mechanical ambush(booby trap) specialist in a Search&Destroy team in the QueSonValley in Vietnam during the war.
We were on patrol deep in the valley around a horrible little village named HeipDuc, an NVA stronghold.
There was a man-eater tiger reported in the area and we were given orders to kill it if it was seen.
My M60 gunner saw the tiger first. The belt in the 60 had a traser every 5th round. Brewer, the 60 gunner brought the trasers down on the tiger at about 700meters. It just exploded- he must have hit it with over 50 rounds.
I had give orders to everyone in the squad that we wanted to take the tiger as a trophy but by the time Brewer had blown it away there wasn't a piece of the hide left large enough to make a wallet out of.
The big question was, what was a tiger doing walking around the jungle highlands in NW Vietnam in the middle of a heavy war zone in 1970? That tiger was the only wildlife I saw in Vietnam during my one year tour. He was definitely a lot less dangerous than the NVA and the VC.

[ 12-04-2002, 14:55: Message edited by: CaptJack ]

DJ,

I agree with you that Indian gun dealers quote ridiculous prices. I saw a nice Webley Green .476 cal revolver with a dealer whom I won't name which I wanted to buy for the collection of a close friend who lives in Belgium. The man quoted a price of Rs 150000! I told him what he could do with it since he can't sell it to any Indian even after the bore restrictions were lifted by the Supreme Court recently, it might never be safe to fire despite looking very well looked after, because similar revolvers are available in the US for a tenth the price. No wonder all the big Calcutta boys went bankrupt - I didn't know any of them personally, but they must have been upto similar business practices.

I can only hope that they sold their inventory at reasonable prices when they went belly up instead of surrendering it to the government.

Saad,

You are really fortunate. Your laws definitely allow considerably more freedom than ours do despite all the blatting of our politicians!

What do you hunt with?

Do tell us about hunting in Pakistan.

Good shooting!

Mehul,

Out of interest, given the choice, where in India would you open up hunting? What species would you have on the trophy list? How would you regulate it? What would you do about Manika Gandhi?
DJ.
PS I have a book written by a Shikari, in 1905, who at the time of writing, expressed real concern at the amount of deforestation and overshooting, and claimed the 'good old days' of hunting in India were numbered.
If you were to stand on the hill overlooking the town/village of Rudraprayag, you will not see a single tree as far as the eye can see. Then open Corbetts book on the Man eating Leopard, and read all about the forests that covered the hills.

DJ,

Deforestation is a big problem facing almost tropical countries.

In my country an illegal lumbing is tremendously affecting the forest nationwide and doing that is a felony. But rule just rule in the field the bad guys bribe the forestguards.

I have a memory when the area covered with thick forest. We could see the Sambar deer came out of the jungle from the villager's cabin or we could hear the Elephants trumpeting a loudy noise. Now it's gone, the thick forest has diclined.

DJ,

Sadly, I don't know of any place that has big game in India from first hand experience. There have been many articles in the press of leopard populations shooting up in Himachal Pradesh and also of Nilgai populations bursting out of control in Central India. Considering that farmers rig up firecrackers with nails that blow the jaws off these animals and cause them to die painfully slowly, I'd be all for a controlled hunting programme that was monitored by the scientific community. The government would get revenues from allowing hunting in a controlled manner, animals would be harvested humanely and farmers would have an incentive to preserve wildlife. But then, I am just a former hack!

As far as Maneka Gandhi is concerned, she is an obnoxiously rude woman whom I have had the displeasure of meeting twice. If hunting were to be opened up, there is no doubt that she would be it's foremost opponent. The woman has tried to ban medical experimentation, has been known for some sensational stunts of the PETA kind and is, as a matter of fact, using the animal welfare movement in India to destroy Muslim businesses which are based on the trade in leather goods. She is a bigot and gets far more attention than she deserves. The only good thing about her is that she has burned her boats with all political parties in India and will soon be consigned to the dustbin on history.

Since you have considerably more experience than I have, what would your recommendation on the above be?

Mehul,

Sorry, I fed you that one on Manika Gandhi, as I had a feeling it would get you going!
I don't think there is anywhere in India where one can re-introduce hunting, bloody shame that.
Is it not ironic, the only reserves in India where there is any game are the old hunting grounds of the Maharajas.
That's why I do my annual pilgrimage to Africa, for the big stuff.
DJ.

BantengRaider, sorry for the late reply; I fiddled around with my computer, lost my settings, could not log in to the site, and did not find my password until now.

While in Indonesia I was offered a chance to hunt wild boar but it never came through. It was quite a disappointment to me.

I did get a chance to do some shooting at a rifle range, and I considered myself lucky to have had that opportunity.

Another time I went after squirrils with my air rifle, but came up empty. Since I had to travel a ways from where I was to get to where there were squirrils, I felt like a big game hunter on a safari. Hey, you take your fun where you can find it.

I did hunt till the ban on hunting took effect. My family were keen shikari’s in the old day. They ran a shikar company “spots & stripes†in India till the ban on hunting came into effect in the 70’s.

Lynx


Lynx

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CaptJack:

The big question was, what was a tiger doing walking around the jungle highlands in NW Vietnam in the middle of a heavy war zone in 1970?

Well, seems to me that there probably an excellent supply of fresh meat lying about...

Kamo Gari

quote:

---

There have been 5 permits for hunting leopard in Maharashtra in the past two months"
- Does it mean a local hunter can buy the permit in order to hunt the leopard ?

---

BantengRaider

Once a leopard has been declared man eater, the forest department issues permits to shikaris. A friend shot a ‘man eater’ last year in Gujurat, he called for trackers from a remote village in Gujurat who are famous for their tracking skills. I gather permits were issued to 4-5 hunters for this leopard.


After several months of failure to shoot a man eating leopard in Mahrasthra state, two policeman decided to have a go, after getting the required permission they sat up on a machan in the evening near a camouflaged trap door cage with bait. When the forest dept official went to pick them up in the morning there were no sign of them on the machan. The policemen were sitting in the cage, fear had got the better of them.

Nitro X,

Gaur are very tough, males can weight upto 2100 lbs and are 6 feet at the shoulder. On one of the family shikar trips in the old days, a Gaur was shot broadside with a .465 in the shoulder which dropped him, he was up in a seconds & took off, he took another 3 shots, two from a 450/400, the gaur then turned around and charged. It took four shots to stop him.


Lynx