Nickuku,

I know you are secretly justifying the 505 , and Ganyana's reply just did that even if he didn't say it outright.

Grom Ganyana's discussion, the truth of Taylor's Knock Out values seem to be my conclusion (but I am guilty of that often). Big bullets, higher velocity, and good sectional density (which is what the PI is) and the deed gets done!

Hi nick

I have seen used on buffalo both the .500 Jeffery and .505 Gibbs. They are much more effective than the .577NE

At current loadings the .505 is actually marginal on frontal shots on bull elephants - in part due to poor bullets that I have seen used and in part to the poor sectional density of the bullets (to be fair that is only three and all three bullets actually reached the brain- but only just). On side brain or the .500 Jeffery from any angle they are the way forward in thick jesse for any man who can handle the recoil. I have watched one ele being shot with a 4 bore, two with a 700 Nitro and perhaps half a dozzen with a .577 or .600 NE. Through the shoulder- 4 bore wins. On head shots, I would rate the .500 Jeffery alongside the .600 ( HV loading ..900grns at 1950fps) in terms of stopping power.

The Jury in my book is still out on the .700. The first one the client shot the poor thing 4 times in the head - all shots within a few inches of the brain and both failed to knock it down and failed to stop it running away! A raking back up shot by the PH with a .375 ensured the lad went home with his Ivory. I nearly got to join in with my F.N.

On the other, It was a classic side brain and the ele hits the floor in 3 seconds on the vedeo. Same average as a .404... so I certainly didn't feel he was any better armed than me in hindsight (I was carying my .404 that day).

For cats at night, even me- a confirmed "Small Bore" man in many ways would rather pick up a .500 Jeffery than anything else... well I would rather have a double, so that leaves me holding a Krieghoff .500/.416

That said, Ammo must work and misses of the brain unnacceptable. There is no such thing as a magic wand that makes all bad ele's fall over! My friend Kirk got run through by an ele cow last year after a shot at contact range with his .500 Jeffery failed to stop her. She had her head right down in a charge after the client wounded her and Kirks first shot was a missfire. His second, fired with the muzzel touching her forhead went a couple of inches in front of the brain and tore out a tooth.( Yup In the top of the head behind the eyes and out the bottom, that is how far down her head was) Appy dropped cow with .375, and Kirk says every time he thinks about one of D***'s reloads he gets this funny ache in his back

My stepfather will be working the loads up, I was just wondering for myself since I am one who is satisfied if the gun will shoot what it needs to for the job, like you said 2350 would be good for buff. then I wouldn't push for 2500fps. But sometimes because of all the hype of velocity people just have to push it as fast as they can. I had an 06 improved because at the time I thought that 3100fps would be so much better than the 2900fps or so and I might be able to achieve it. sure after lots of trouble I got 165's close and it would shoot, but what a pain in the butt and pressure was starting to show.

The whole reason in my rifle I am going to the Lott is to load it with lower pressure, not to have more room to stoke it up.

Thanks guys. And Ray I did observe that with the video of Tanzania that Saeed shot, he got incredible penetration and fast kill with his wildcat. I think that the bullets that will most be used with this rifle will be the 340-350 area (doesn't somebody make a 340 I thought?)

The best part, now that he'll have a gun that will do the job he'll have no excuse not to plan his buff. hunt, and if he is going my wife will have to let me go since he is 60 afterall and might need "assistance" :-) I'd be happy to just assist him by shooting the plains game that get in his way.

Ray didn't you have a Taylor? what powder did you find to be best?

Red

There is bacically only "one" thing you can rely on, your experiences and others experiences, but mostly these days others experiences are of anecdotal nature. There are continual attempts to define some index of "killing effect," all equally valid since no one around here is going to shoot enough buff to prove or disprove it!

I believe, in general, the Big Three are placement, penetration, and energy, in that order of importance. I have found that Penetration Index correlates well, most of the time, with field results. If you prescribe the caliber, bullet weight, and a PI of at least 100, then you can calculate the energy you "need," and, hence, bullet velocity.

It will work for most everything including buffalo. But there will be times when shit happens and bullets do things that no index has yet to predict, and that is when energy becomes number 1, or, there is no such thing as too much gun!

Basically I agree with Will. Except that I would place penetration first. It doesn't matter how well you place the bullet if it will not reach the vitals.

For elephant. A SD of .320 at a velocity of 2100fps works
A SD of .300 at a velocity of 2300fps works

In the .404 (SD .319) they were happy with a genuine 2150fps. In the old .450/.400 the SD was a bit better (.322) and velocity much the same.

This combination works well on elephant, and possibly better on buff than a .375.

For cats I like the impact velocity to be over 2300fps - but SD isn't so Important.

I actually quite like a reasonable bit of velocity for buff as well. The difference on buff between the original .404 loads (2150fps) and the new (Actual velocity out of a 22" barrel 2310fps) is quite noticeable. Such a combination is far superior to any .375, .378 on buff. That said velocity alone isn't the whole story, and I haven't noticed any difference on ele and buff between a 500grn .458 bullet at 2400fps and 2700fps.

I certainly am not one to worry about squeezing 2400fps out of my .404's. @ 2300fps they do all a man can ask for on lion, ele or buff.

I don't know about how the recoil will be when I get my Lott back next year, but when it was a 458 win it would knock pretty good. The main problem though was what you all know and many forget STOCK FIT. the stock was designed for a scope, and my 458 will not have concession for a scope. I had to crunch my cheekbone down on the stock to get behind the sights. this must be face design because I have same problem with my 375 (which subsequently WILL have a scope).

BUT if the lott kicks hard I am not afraid of a bit more rifle weight either, I have not been spoiled by mountain weights or featherweights, a good stout rifle is norm. for me.

this is a great conversation going guys, picking up a lot here, thanks.

Red

Maybe I am misinterpeting Ganyana, but what I see is that sectional density of the 404 or 416 may, in fact, be a better overall choice than a 500 or 505...I know the 416 and 404 is certainly suitable for any of the big 5....correct me if I am wrong...

I also consider the 375 and excellent elephant rifle simply because of its great penitration with good bullets and the size of the hole in the head is of little importance..I also feel the 375 is a very capable Buffalo rifle, and that the bigger bores are better for charge stopping, but the bullet must still be put in the correct spot..I have seen one buff shot 9 times with a 470 and 500, another 13 times by a couple of boys from Boise, got it on film, have seen almost the same with a .375 H&H on one ocassion...again correct me if I am wrong...

Bottom line is use a reasonably powerfull caliber that has a reputation of killing well on the game hunted, and put a bullet of proper construction in the right spot, and caliber becomes a less important equasion, at least that has been my reasoning for using the 404 Jefferys and 416 Remington, and loading my 470 down to 2020 FPS, and so far it has worked and I don't get my eye teeth kicked out of my head.....

I also feel more folks should know their recoil tolerance and it sure seems a lot of them simply will not admit they cannot shoot some big bores. I think that shooting standing up off hand is fine and that makes the big bores easier to shoot, but what if you have to shoot it in a precarious position, then you may be prone to flinch..I can shoot a 404 or 416 from any position as easy as I can a 30-30, not so with a 458 Lott...But if you can do this with a 458 Lott or whatever, then thats the caliber for you, but you must be honest with yourself...

Nick,
I agree with your post 100%...

Daggo Red,
Stock fit is not the salvation of those who suffer recoil in the big bores, albiet it helps some, as do muzzle brakes, murcury reducers in the the stock and such..but the bottom line is these big boys will clear your sinuses any way you cut it...

One needs to know his recoil tolerances and be able to shoot from any position including prone, sitting, off hand, squatted down and bent over, thats what happens in the field, not at the range...Every year I see a cut eyebrow and a new client with a flinch....

I see many instances wherein a client should be using a .375 or even a 9.3x62 as opposed to what he brought to camp...These guns used properly will kill any animal and are considerably deadlier than a 500 gr. bullet that is misplaced....

If one can shoot a .600 N.E. with the same ease as he can shoot a 375 then all this does not apply and be sure that I am aware the big dog sleeps on the poarch everytime...One should shoot the biggest caliber he can on dangerous game, but that does not mean a lesser caliber won't do the trick, it will...I would hunt any DG animal in the world with a 9.3x62, but I normally hunt with a 416, 404 and 470 by choice...

On two safaris I used two 416 rifles.

One was a 416 Weatherby, and one was a 416 Rigby improved we have built ourselves.

I used the same bullet and load in both rifles.

400 grain Bear Claws at 2500 fps. I shot several buffalo with each, and this load worked great on them.

The bullets we recovered had that classic expanded mushroom head.

I honestly think velocity was not so liked in the past because of the bullets available at that time.

Ganyana's post illustrates this very well.

Sometimes they have spectacular effect, and on other times they fail miserably.

If one uses some of the bullets which are made all of copper, or those that have a solid copper shank, I don't think one will experience any failures at the higher velocities.

I am not a fan of partition type bullets that have lead exposed from their bases.

I have had experience of them - in this case the Swift A-Frames - loosing all the lead because it oozed out from the base as the bullets struck bone.

The ones I tried were shot in a Lezzeroni 7.21 Firebird, at very high velocity.

But, I stopped using them, favoring bullets that are made of copper, as I knew sooner or later, I will exprience a failure.

On the few occasions that I have used them, they worked fine and the animals were killed just as well as with any other bullet.

With these I do not need worry about penetration - I know I will get it.

Dago, Do heed Atkinson's words on stocking, as the entire clan has been at it a long time.
Here's his signature piece, created for Hernando DeSoto:

Hi Dago Red,
Back to the original question, though the tangent has been quite good:

Your .416 Taylor with a 22" barrel will easily do 2300 fps with 400 grainers, using RL-15 or Varget.

It is more gentle than a .404 Jeffery in the recoil department and has only slightly less TKO, so the RIP of the rifle will be about optimum, as long as you don't pull a stunt like making it weigh only 6.1 pounds like Will "Pondoro Junior."

Dago Red

Recoil is individual. I do not like recoil. I used to tollerate it ok until I stood in front of a fellow with an AK and then parked a land rover in a jacaranda tree. Rt shoulder held together by much iron mongery these days. Don't know where my neck injury is due to my folks driving over a landmine when I was a kid ( No seatbelt on), The landrover accident or a plane crash, but I suffer severaly from neck strain with recoil.

Rifle fit is vitally important, but it cannot diminish total recoil absorbed. Fit dimminishes felt recoil and makes snap shooting feasable.

Weight is ok- provided you can carry it without getting too tired. The lad I too out with the .700 on ele couldn't carry his rifle for more than a few 100 yards at a stretch. Many others I have seen can carry their rifles ok, but when the time comes to use them they are too tried to use them well. I would never choose to hunt carrying a rifle that weighs more than 8lbs all up. For a follow up I would gladly carry a 14lb double - assuming it fitted well and was properly balanced.

As Ray has stressed most clients would be much better off with a lighter weight and caliber rifle that they can shoot well than a cannon that guts and skins a buff with every hit! (on the rare occasion when they hit...)

Nothing is foolproof all the time. I saw a buff take 4 centre chest hits with a .577 NE and then toss Clive, braking the rifle in half. Oh, what upset the buff in the first place was a 535grn soft in the guts.

That said, a more powerfull rifle can dig you out of a hole. Just look at the statistics about guys taken by surprise by ele's in the jesse. Under .40 cal you don't have too much of a hope. The odds go above 50% once you start reaching .470 NE.

The real secret of sucess is not to get caught in a possition where there is no room to manouver, or what normally kills hunters is their rifle is still over their shoulder when things go pear shaped. By the time they have got it into action it is all over bar the trampling. The other killer is not shooting straight.

Time and experience have taught me that provided I have 10 yards visibility and the rifle in my hands I am safe, even if it is a 7.62. The same experience though by my college from the buffalo erradication days sent him off saving until he could afford a .500NE double.