JTG

OK I'm being pushy. Tell us about some of your experiences in Egypt. You have been there a while and it is a fascinating country. As a tourist one only sees a place superficially but living there many more experiences happen.

Egypt is part of Africa and I know you have hunted there already, so this is on-topic!

Hi Nitro.

The best way I can describe Cairo is to say that it is a city of contrasts. It is similar to the way I imagine Victorian England...conservative in its appearance but with deliciously devious undertones. It is , for example, routine in Cairo to see women wearing the higab (headscarf) accesorized nicely with skin tight pants and shirt. I always get a real kick out of the technical Muslim modesty coupled with the very modern need to show off a great rack! As an aside, it must be something in the water here that yields substantial "development"! As another example of the contrasts here, and to get back on track, I had students telling me just today about a wedding invitation they received. It was beautifully hand engraved with verses from the Qur'an but also announced that the wedding (being held at the Four Seasons no less) would have an open bar. A more off the wall example of Cairo contrast occured when I was having shisha on Talaat Harb Street downtown. I asked the guy tending to the charcoals if the bar next door was nice and if the beer was cheap. He answered in the affirmative so I went in for a local Stella Lager. It turns out the place is a full-on brothel with 250 Egyptian Pounds ($40) being the going rate. As I walked out, carrying the same amount of cash I went in with (minus 10 pounds for a beer), I could hear the afternoon call to prayer coming from a nearby mosque. Now, please understand that I am NOT accusing Egyptians or Muslims of being hypocrites, but only pointing out that historically conservative cultures (here just as anywhere) generally try to find ways to fit into the modern world or satisfy subterranean desires while very carefully picking and choosing which secular and religious traditions to maintain on a more overt level.

The Egyptian contrasts extend, of course, also to the socio-economic realm and are much less pleasant to experience than those described above. There is no geographic separation between poverty and wealth as we are accustomed to experiencing in the west. For instance, beneath my building, there is a couple with three children living in the tiny garage. As a side business, they park the German luxury cars for those working in the Fulbright offices down the street. There is also a homeless and orphaned child of about 9 years who begs for spare change or food outside the university as the students are dropped off by their drivers. "Wealth stratification" takes on a new meaning when the spare change for a homeless child comes from a young coed's Louis Vuitton bag. Also interesting to me is the charitable actions that people (often those only marginally less poor than those on the street) undertake in response to the poverty in Egypt. There doesn't seem to be a moral label placed on the poor here. There is very little suspicion from Egyptians that someone on the street is a drug addict or alcoholic or may steal your wallet as you are giving them a few pounds. Simultaneoulsy, Egyptians are very concerned that visitors might place a moral label on their poor. Egyptians, justifiably, do not want to be made to feel like tourists here are slumming. For instance, I was recently taking pictures of old monuments in the Northern Cemetery and a local guy became very angry with me because he thought I was photographing the slums around the monuments. I had to make it clear to him that I wasn't there to get off on the poverty or to take a negative image of Cairo back to my friends and family at home. After that, we were cool.

Politically I have definitely gained a greater appreciation for the fact that we are ALL unfortunately subject to the whims of often idiotic rulers. I don't want to start a political argument here on the Africa board but I have had many experiences with cab drivers and others here who react empathetically (NOT with hostility...NO ONE has even been hostile to me here) when I tell them that I am an American. I told one cab driver I was American and that I thought Bush was..."misguided". His response, in English, was "I know how you feel....We don't like Mubarik either". I certainly don't think this "averaqe Joe" would have hated me even if I had said "I think Bush is the greatest" and really his response is at the root of my frustration when people in the west paint Islam or "Arabs" with a broad brush. People here, and I suspect this is true almost everywhere, are mostly just doing their own thing and trying to make ends meet.

The best part about Cairo and Egypt in general is that the hardships in peoples' lives do not keep them from being happy and hospitable. The generosity that takes place in the face of poverty here is astounding. To make this thread "forum appropriate", let me say that there wasn't a village near where we hunted ducks in which we weren't offered tea or even a meal. I was also dove shooting literally within a tiny village last December and the women of the town provided a continuous flow of tea while their little kids scrambled to retrieve fallen birds from the thatched rooftops. No one was looking to extract baksheesh (tips) or anything...they were just being kind to their guests and having fun. Even Cairo cab drivers (known for their intense desire to fleece tourists) have, out of a sense of hospitality, flatly refused payment when dropping me off somewhere saying, "Welcome to Cairo"!

As for other hunting opportunities....I think there are many (very few legal ones though). There are still Gazelles here as well as Nubian Ibex and Barbary Sheep. If hunting were legal and regulated, of course, the populations of these animals here would be much higher as there are a lot of poached Gazelle and Ibex horns/skulls for sale in the local bazaars for next to nothing. Don't I wish I could pay a few thousand dollars to hunt one legally and know that the money was going to protect the species! I was also recently offered a Croc hunt on Lake Nasser. I have no doubt, knowing the outfitter, that it would be legally sanctioned in some official "Upper Egypt" sort of way but I doubt very highly that it would be deemed legal by a Cairo court. Since I would just as soon avoid Egyptian prison, I passed on the offer. I do think I am going to do some fishing on the lake in the next year as I just can't wait to get a photo or two of myself with one of those giant Nile Perch! For anyone interested in joining me on this trip or for ducks and doves starting this December, the invitiation is open to AR folks!

Hope I might have given you a general impression of how things are going here, Nitro. If you have any more specific questions, feel free to ask.

Best,

JohnTheGreek

Very interesting to read, thanks for taking the time.

Regards,
Dave

JTG,

I enjoyed your post very much. Thanks for sharing that with us!

Sincerely,
-Bob F.

JTG,

Shukran gezira (that's thanks a lot for the tour. You'll see from my separate post on hunting in Sudan that I'm a veteran in the zone.

Wife, friends and I will be in Cairo towards the end of January looking to tour interesting monuments and enjoy Egypt. Would admire to have a drink together if you are there then.
Regards, Tim

John, tell us about Nubian Ibex hunting in Egypt, if you can spare the time, please??
- mike

Thanks for the post, John!
a very interesting experience.

Thanks for the compliments all. I'm glad you enjoyed the quick summary.

Tim,

The end of January might just work. Do you have arrival dates yet? Let's definitely get together for some dinner and then move on to Arosa tea and shisha! Do let me know the dates though as I will be in the US during the early part of that month.

mho,

There is no legal Ibex hunting in Egypt and the areas housing them are pretty remote. Due to this, I would guess that most of the horns that one sees for sale in bazaars come from animals poached by the Bedouin for food. The situation really is perfect to hire them as protectors of the herds and pay them with the funds generated by their guiding hunters to a few Ibex per year. Here's a photo just to make your trigger finger itchy!



Salaam,

JohnTheGreek

JohnTG

Thanks for the long answer and some of your experiences.

I travelled in Egypt before the tourist killings and only once felt uncomfortable when we tried to travel across a suburb from one mosque to another and got lost and ended up in a slum. The people there did not act friendly but nor did they actually do anything. Also because I took a quick route out when the 'atmosphere' changed.

I like the livestock (donkeys) on roof tops in downtown Cairo.

The best Norwegian meal I have ever had (and could afford) was in the Cairo Hilton on the Nile. In Scandanavia I eat pizzas and Italian as I couldn't affor Scandanavian food there.

I met Taxi drivers who were very hospitalable and polite and others who were absolute arseholes.

Generally one felt safe walking the streets.

Bureacracy there was a nightmare to deal with.

I spent a couple days at the Antiquities Museum. If I lived there like you I would spend several weeks.

The sand deserts of the Sahara in Upper Egypt are breathtaking especially when a camel-train slowly treks acorss them in the distance.


***

Poverty is everywhere on the streets of Cairo. Other than hashish though drugs did not seem a problem. Probably food, rent, shelter is more a issue there.

Never got to the Delta myself. Is that where you go waterfowl hunting?

Thanks again for your stories. Any more come to mind, please share. Nothing like living in a place to truly experience. But Egypt is too crowded for me.

Would love to join you for a shoot there, but it is a bit far for a duck shoot. Now some European would get there without a lot of expense.

quote:

JohnTheGreek

John so from what you tell me the Moslems are just like all us other people of various faiths or religions or NO Religion like me ... we all like wine women and song and a bit of hunting thrown in, essentially if you take away the language the accent the skin colour and features WE ALL are the same ...

And MORE importantly ... all our governments RIP US off and bullsh.t us left right and center ... then we wonder why the people finally say enough is enough and revolt and arse kick their leaders out of power ...

Regards, Peter

Nitro,

AH...the Nile Hilton....land of expensive shisha made worthwhile by the presence of inappropriately dressed Europeans. LOL! I was near there a few weeks ago and a tour bus opened up unleashing a bunch of Greek tourists. One of the teenage old girls was wearing a haltar top and VERY short shorts. Having been in this culture for a while, even I was a bit surprised (and impressed). Needless to say, the Egyptian guys at the bus stop nearby had NEVER seen anything like it and boy did they voice their appreciation.

Taxi drivers are, as you say, definitely a crap-shoot. I have had some try to totally screw me over on fares but, to be frank, when we are talking about the difference between a $1.50 to the bazaar and the "real fare" of 50 US cents, I am not likely to get too worked up about it. Incidentally, I have found that just the slightest bit of Arabic makes a huge difference with cab drivers. Egyptians are big on greeting each other about 50 times. "Hello"..."How are you?"..."is all OK?"...."How are things?"...."OK?"...."Thanks be to God"! Anyone learning these phrases in Arabic and using them with extreme regularity will have much more fun (and pay lower cab fares) in Cairo.

You know, it is shameful...but I have only been to the Antiquities Museum once and it was when my girlfriend came to visit. We saw the "must see" stuff and blazed through the rest. It is definitely a multi day (week?) place to visit.

You mention the fun of Camel trains....If you get the chance to come back to Egypt, I know a Bedouin guy (he's actually a hell of a businessman) who runs jeep and camel treks out into the White Desert by the Farafra Oasis. I went for three days in November and spent thanksgiving in the desert. Every night was spent around the campfire with these guys drinking tea, singing, and smoking shisha. They even made a Turkey dinner for us Yanks!

Hashish is definitely everywhere for better or worse. I have been offered it from my barber as well as innumerable sailboat captains on the Nile. The rumor, by the way, is that it wasn't just pipe tobbaco that Sadat was smoking in his day.

As for shooting...The Delta is a bit locked up by private clubs. Unless you know someone who knows someone, it is pretty difficult to get on there. The managager of the Nile Hilton is actually a big shooter (in the delta and elsewhere) and I played tennis with his wife a few times hoping for an introduction. Alas, no luck. As it is, I shoot in The Fayoum Oasis about 90km southwest of Cairo. It is nice there and less formal I think. It is really nice to chat over tea with villagers while you shoot. I don't think I like the idea of shooting in the delta where you are insulated from the "real life" of Egyptians.

Peter,

You are pretty much spot on. I am not saying that there aren't differences here, there certainly are. I mean, there is growing frustration with the governments of the west (not to mention frustration with their own government) and there are more and more fully veiled women on the streets. That said, I'm not sure any of this will ever manifest in widespread hostility toward westerners. Sure, recently someone blew himself up by the Antiquities Museum and someone blew himself up in the Kahn al Khalili bazaar a few weeks before that. HOWEVER, these are the first incidents since 1997 and I think I will continue to risk the isolated bombing and live in an environment where there is virtually NO street crime. I definitely feel safer walking at night here than I do in major US cities.

To give you an example of how this country polices its own religious fundamentalism, I have one last story. During the most recent Ramadan, when religious zeal is at its obvious height and people are a bit tense anyway from the all day fasting and all night feasts, a guy on the street smacked a female university student in the face for "disturbing his fast". Women at my university (God bless them) dress pretty provocatively even by western standards and can usually get away with it because they don't spend a lot of time on the street or in cabs. Anyway, some random guys on the street nabbed the assailant and waited for the police to arrive. The cops came and told the girl, "Well, we can arrest him or we can let the guys here on the street handle it". The girl chose the latter punishment and the guys on the street kicked the hell outta the man who had exhibited such piety by whacking the student. This girl was Egyptian. Had she been a foreigner, the punishment would likely have been a street beating as well as arrest (undoubtedly followed by a more "official" beating).

Best,

JohnTheGreek

quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:
".... Khan al-Khalili bazaar .....

I was only thinking of that place this week. I still have four papyrus paintings purchased there that need framing (we were there in 1989). The scenes feature painted recreations of ancient carvings of pharoahs hunting ducks from boats with bows and arrows, gazelle from chariot and spears. And other scenes.

We had fun in the bazaars. One of the street touts adopted us and became an "un-offical" guide, no doubt helping direct us to various cousins shops. We also bought perfume for my wife which now resides in a pyramid shaped crystal glass (still some left). The aroma went by the exotic name of "Dakota" if I remember right .

I don't know anything about the shoots in the Delta. From what you describe they seem very formal.

JTG,

Will arrive in Cairo Jan 23. Would like to make a group for dinner. No hotel yet, getting my wife, who actually went down the Nile to Luxor in the mid 90s, to sort that. Have done shisa at the Khan el-Khalil and even dropped into a Cairo gun shop (Alexandria was said to be better) when I passed through in 96 and 97.
Regards, tim

I love The Kahn! The trick is to make friends with a shopkeeper and then let him direct you to the best deals or really get to know a shopkeeper (by buying regularly) who will then go make purchases for you at "Egyptian prices". I have a silver dealer who makes all my gift purchases in the Kahn. In turn, I only buy silver from him and take any of my friends or guests to him.

Funny you should mention papyrus. A neighbor of mine had guests here recently who were completely oblivious to the proper prices of papyrus. She came home one day with three papyrus painting and was so thrilled! She was like, "Look how beautiful...and only 1000 pounds!"
They should have totaled 30 pounds of course.

Best,

JohnTheGreek

Tim,

I should be back by then or definitely will be back while you are here. I know a great Lebanese place in Garden City where we could all get together. It provides the best service and food in Cairo IMO.
I haven't been too impressed with the Cairo gun shops but have also heard that there are some great ones in Alex. I used to have the web-link to one that had a fabulous selection of high-dollar air rifles. Just what the doctor ordered to keep the local cat populations in check!
Your wife took a boat from Cairo to Luxor?!?! Man, that is a damn long trip. How many days? I thought the train trip was sufficiently long to be honest and that was even traveling "Cleopatra Class" in a sleeper car. LOL!
As for hotels here...the new Four Seasons is up and running in Garden City and I hear Luxor's Winter Palace is pretty nice.

Best,

JohnTheGreek

John, Great report and thanks for spending the time to do it. It is one of those places I would
love visit. Can one visit there and Israel on the same trip? I would love to do some of the areas that WW11 etc crossed. WW1 in Israel.
Thanks
Gene

Norwegian food in Egypt and Norwegian food in Norway is too expensive nut pizzas and pasta is cheap enough?

Foreigners.................

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
JohnTG

Thanks for the long answer and some of your experiences.

I travelled in Egypt before the tourist killings and only once felt uncomfortable when we tried to travel across a suburb from one mosque to another and got lost and ended up in a slum. The people there did not act friendly but nor did they actually do anything. Also because I took a quick route out when the 'atmosphere' changed.

I like the livestock (donkeys) on roof tops in downtown Cairo.

The best Norwegian meal I have ever had (and could afford) was in the Cairo Hilton on the Nile. In Scandanavia I eat pizzas and Italian as I couldn't affor Scandanavian food there.

I met Taxi drivers who were very hospitalable and polite and others who were absolute arseholes.

Generally one felt safe walking the streets.

Bureacracy there was a nightmare to deal with.

I spent a couple days at the Antiquities Museum. If I lived there like you I would spend several weeks.

The sand deserts of the Sahara in Upper Egypt are breathtaking especially when a camel-train slowly treks acorss them in the distance.


***

Poverty is everywhere on the streets of Cairo. Other than hashish though drugs did not seem a problem. Probably food, rent, shelter is more a issue there.

Never got to the Delta myself. Is that where you go waterfowl hunting?

Thanks again for your stories. Any more come to mind, please share. Nothing like living in a place to truly experience. But Egypt is too crowded for me.

Would love to join you for a shoot there, but it is a bit far for a duck shoot. Now some European would get there without a lot of expense.

Norwegian food in Kairo??

Lutefisk

Flesk og duppe

Raspeball

Smalahove?

sylta kanarifugler?


That was a bit strange but so is the world.

I love reading stuff like this!!! Thanks John! What is the agricultural scene like? I wonder if there is a demand for cropduster pilots in that region? It would be neat to fly in another country during my off season. Thanks, Kelly Peeler

Fantastic posts John.

Really, really good.

Thanks for taking the time.

About 15 years ago my wife and I wemt backpacking up the Nile. Had a great time.

In Cairo we stayed at a really atmospheric faded-glory hotel, I think it was called The Windsor (though that may have been the name of its equivalent in Rangoon, I'm not really sure).

So day 1 we are walking towards The Museum and a young guy approaches us:
"Hi where are you from? Are you Americans?"
- No we are British.
"Ah fantastic, I want to practise my english but I don't want to get an american accent, can I walk with you and show you the museum?"

Well we thought this was the usual unofficial guide who would want a tip...so we said we were OK thanks, some other time.
"OK, sure, if I'm still here having a coffee with my friends when you come out perhaps we can talk then?"

So...to cut a long story short...it turned out this guy was the son of an airforce general. He put his mercedes and driver at our disposal. Took us to nightclubs and restaurants (he paid, we couldn't persuade him to take a cent from us)at night and to the "real" Cairo in the daytime....far off the tourist's guidebook.

He really was on the level, he just wanted to practise his english and to have a good time.

UKhunter,

As we American would say, accent and all ,
"You lucked out!"

Rich Elliott

Great post John. Egypt is a place that has always fascinated me. It is definately a place that I will visit someday.

An enjoyable thread. Thanks Nitro and thanks John, for the insights.

JTG
One of the most enjoyable posts I've read in a long time!
You paint a very positive picture of the people and the places. Is there anything that puts you off, that you see or experiance?

JohnTG,

What an incredibly enjoyable and informative post.

Thanks to both Johns.