The emotional hoo hah about killing Cecil seems to have died down, and the rabble screaming for the blood of the fellow who killed the lion seem to have fallen victim to a short attention span.

Help me understand.


From what I have been able to gather, the Dentist has lost his livelihood, at least temporarily, been forced to move, may yet suffer bodily harm from Bambiists and is still under threat of extradition to a third-world country for a game violation!

Has the world gone mad?

Is fair-chase hunting just some abstract concept?
In conversations with African Game Guides at Outdoor Shows, I get that impression.
Did the Doctor actually believe the T.V. programs that show game honestly taken after a difficult stalk, and/or ethical "Professional" Guides? Does anyone?

Are the African countries like Hawaii, where they don't really like tourists but love (need) the money they (we) bring? Do they believe the "rich" (fill in the nationality) are just there for the fleecing?

Was the Doctor relying on his "Professional" Hunter(s) to provide an honest hunt, and were they the shady sort who promise the moon, then use any means, fair or foul, to follow through, then leave the client twisting in the wind when it all comes apart?

My take is this will likely hurt African hunting for the foreseeable future. Hunters may decide not to spent their $$$ to visit countries where they may not get good value for their money, and in the worst extreme, even if innocent, receive harsh penalties, while the "good ol' boys" receive a wink and a pat on the wrist?

You forgot to mention Mexico
Same thing, we are nothing but walking dollar signs
It'll be cold day in hell before I'd ever go to Beanerville ever again
Hunting in Mexico? We got what they have and more
Africa?
We will keep going there but smaller numbers are possibility as we at times do get fleeced there on every turn it seems
Those little fees keep turning up everywhere we turn
Death by thousand cuts comes to my mind

I fear there are many who will not go back to Africa, because of this! I stopped hunting Mexico many years ago, for the reasons you just mentioned.
...............................................................

While we are asking questions, was the Doctor part of the problem, perhaps even the biggest part of the problem?

the dr has a huge dental clinic - perhaps the largest in the state. he has hunted extensively. now as i get prices today a lion hunt with success is going to cost $80,000 and up. his as i get it was 50,000. it would seem that the old sayings regarding a deal like this would seem to be to good to be true?? and one with experience would possibly know that??

What does Mexico even has to do with that?

quote:

What does Mexico even has to do with that?

Manuel Maldonado
M&M Sonoran Adventures

Not a damn thing, too bad your not black, at least the white guilt around here would make them act like you were of some value to them. Where are the word Nazi's when you need them, Jines? Guess those lowly meskins aren't worth sticking up for like the negroes? control freak or closet racist?

?
Because many wants dollars from us and spits on us after we leave

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Not a damn thing, too bad your not black, at least the white guilt around here would make them act like you were of some value to them. Where are the word Nazi's when you need them, Jines? Guess those lowly meskins aren't worth sticking up for like the negroes? control freak or closet racist?

, good to see you have at least progressed socially enough to use the term negroes instead of your usual racial invective. Stick to shilling taxidermy.

Gibbs, you are such a pest...
But then without you, AR entertainment would suffer
And then again, I sometimes spill shit out of my mouth that makes me cringe later

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
?
Because many wants dollars from us and spits on us after we leave

Sir, you must have surely had a very bad experience in my country, and for that I am sorry, but I can assure you not all outfitters here in Mexico see foreign hunters like that, although I won't deny some do. I have an outfit in Sonora and from the few hunts I have done, I have had a positive reaction from my hunters which I consider good friends, I care for the industry and for clients being comfortable, safe and getting a good hunt for their money, and I can personally assure you many other outfitters here share similar stories.

You are entitled to your opinion, but generalizing is never good.

I'm curious how attendance and bookings are going to be at DSC and SCI come the first of the year. I hope that things are back to normal by then.

quote:

Originally posted by ManuelM:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
?
Because many wants dollars from us and spits on us after we leave

Sir, you must have surely had a very bad experience in my country, and for that I am sorry, but I can assure you not all outfitters here in Mexico see foreign hunters like that, although I won't deny some do. I have an outfit in Sonora and from the few hunts I have done, I have had a positive reaction from my hunters which I consider good friends, I care for the industry and for clients being comfortable, safe and getting a good hunt for their money, and I can personally assure you many other outfitters here share similar stories.

You are entitled to your opinion, but generalizing is never good.

I have not generalized, I stated some and that includes most of our hunting destinations
I know, it is hard to swallow criticism, but as Americans, we get criticized aplenty, sometimes for reason sometimes not and that is the same for rest of the world.
I see criticism as a good thing, it keeps us all on our toes and somewhat honest...

quote:

Africa Wins Again?

Correct I guess.

I wonder if Africa will ever learn what is good for her???

I canceled a 2016 trip to Africa, would have been my ninth, not because of Africa but mostly because of the U.S. Delta folding up like a cheap deck of cards over one facebook posting was the crowning blow. Local people looking at me like a murderer because some guy shot a lion that had been named and they know I hunt Africa. I've gone on the offensive and stated the facts but the fun has been taken out of hunting Africa. I'm also disappointed that the big shots on this site threw the doctor under the bus immediately when in fact that could have happened to anyone of us.
I've hunted the BVC several times and was told there was a collared leopard that could be shot if encountered. I opted out but what if???? That leopard more than likely had a name and could have ended the same way as the doctors if we had shot it. I have no doubt many on this site would have thrown me under the bus because I wasn't hunting with the golden boys of this site.
Not worth it for me anymore, the fun is gone.

I guess it is irrelevant that the good Doctor pled guilty to a game law violation (a felony by the way) several years ago and admitted to lying to authorities? So it is just serendipity that the same fellow is involved in another serious game law issue not five years later? I might give someone the benefit of the doubt the first time, but not twice.

Unfortunately, the Africa we love Loses Again

The Cecil debacle was actually a "perfect storm" of unethical behavior...none of which had anything to do with the act of killing a collared and named lion...he just lent the emotional sensationalism needed to make the act go viral on social media.

An unethical land owner (I used the term owner loosely as he is in possession of illegally seized land) came together with a scaly PH and they found a client who at the very least was not to worried about the 'fine print' and together they conducted a hunt in a country where bending the rules for the exchange of money is common place...at least if you are connected to the unethical government.

The landowner allowed a hunt for a lion on land with no lion quota. The PH went along with the plan. The country has a long track record of allowing ex post facto quota transfer. The hunter, a game-law felon, chose to hunt with a PH of not such a good reputation on seized land.

Very very hard to defend this action...but in reality...THE WRONGS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LION BEING NAMED OR COLLARED.

A very similar lion (collared 10 yr old that came and went from the park but was a park lion) was shot legally 2 months prior to the Cecil incident and not a word was said.

Antihunters in Zim, who knew about the illegal technicalities, seized upon an illegal hunt to sensationalize the act of lion hunting to their good...knowing it was impossible to defend.

With all that said...the monetary loss of hunter revenue and the little publicity that the true illegal acts got...may have some positive effects on the Zim hunting industry.

Lane,
You cited several purported illegal actions. I'm pretty sure you would not have done so without proper knowledge. This is not a challenge, but I would like to know more. Can you elaborate? Also, has the hunter actually been charged by the Zim authorities?

Thanks for your valued contributions to AR.

Just like all the ridiculous Ebola hysteria, this one will also be a distant memory soon to be replaced by more ridiculous hysteria.

TIA

quote:

Originally posted by Brice:
Lane,
You cited several purported illegal actions. I'm pretty sure you would not have done so without proper knowledge. This is not a challenge, but I would like to know more. Can you elaborate? Also, has the hunter actually been charged by the Zim authorities?

Thanks for your valued contributions to AR.

Hi Brice,
The only illegality in my post is the fact that the land owner & PH did not get a quota transfer 'prior' to killing the lion.

Unless you are speaking of Antoinette being illegally seized property...which is common knowledge. That said...the government does not choose to acknowledge that law...so they don't consider it illegal.

The rest are ethical issues.

To my knowledge...the hunter has NOT been charged.

I've noticed that most whiners shut the hell up when I tell them that there's more important things for them to worry about like the starving children in the Sudan, Senegal, the ISIS atrocities, the girls kidnapped by Boko Harem or the millions of aborted viable fetuses that they all choose to ignore.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I've noticed that most winers shut the hell up when I tell them that there's more important things for them to worry about like the starving children in the Sudan, Senegal, the ISIS atrocities, the girls kidnapped by Boko Harem or the millions of aborted viable fetuses that they all choose to ignore.

UEG,
I agree 100%!!!

Forgotten the main issue (scourge)at hand .... the bleeding migrants and all the shitholes hidden in their midst that have invaded and continuing to invade Europe?

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I've noticed that most winers shut the hell up when I tell them that there's more important things for them to worry about like the starving children in the Sudan, Senegal, the ISIS atrocities, the girls kidnapped by Boko Harem or the millions of aborted viable fetuses that they all choose to ignore.

100 % , but that would be dealing with real issues with peoples lives at stake. Much easier to wine about simba , eh cecil , distance yourself from the evil hunter and feel good about yourself ....

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
While we are asking questions, was the Doctor part of the problem, perhaps even the biggest part of the problem?

A very relevant question, which we have been asking of similar so called "hunters" whose turned hunting in a bloody competition!

quote:

Originally posted by ManuelM:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
?
Because many wants dollars from us and spits on us after we leave

Sir, you must have surely had a very bad experience in my country, and for that I am sorry, but I can assure you not all outfitters here in Mexico see foreign hunters like that, although I won't deny some do. I have an outfit in Sonora and from the few hunts I have done, I have had a positive reaction from my hunters which I consider good friends, I care for the industry and for clients being comfortable, safe and getting a good hunt for their money, and I can personally assure you many other outfitters here share similar stories.

You are entitled to your opinion, but generalizing is never good.

Well said!

I think the bad press for Mexico starts at the top with a brutally corrupt government, corrupt police and the fact it's a narco/terrorist haven. I do not believe per se that all Mexican hunting outfitters are crooks, but the problem is almost everyone else is. I really wish you guys would have another revolution......

quote:

Originally posted by ManuelM:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
?
Because many wants dollars from us and spits on us after we leave

Sir, you must have surely had a very bad experience in my country, and for that I am sorry, but I can assure you not all outfitters here in Mexico see foreign hunters like that, although I won't deny some do. I have an outfit in Sonora and from the few hunts I have done, I have had a positive reaction from my hunters which I consider good friends, I care for the industry and for clients being comfortable, safe and getting a good hunt for their money, and I can personally assure you many other outfitters here share similar stories.

You are entitled to your opinion, but generalizing is never good.

quote:

Originally posted by ManuelM:

Sir, you must have surely had a very bad experience in my country, and for that I am sorry, but I can assure you not all outfitters here in Mexico see foreign hunters like that, although I won't deny some do. I have an outfit in Sonora and from the few hunts I have done, I have had a positive reaction from my hunters which I consider good friends, I care for the industry and for clients being comfortable, safe and getting a good hunt for their money, and I can personally assure you many other outfitters here share similar stories.

You are entitled to your opinion, but generalizing is never good.

Mr. Maldonado, It is understandable that you would take this personally, but you must understand that in recent years Mexico has become quite dangerous for Americans.
I don't think you would disagree that there are many fishing and hunting areas that used to be favorite places for Americans to go that have become shooting ranges, and kidnapping of Americans for ransom by the cartels.

Mordida has always been a way of life in Mexico, but that was accepted as simply the cost of visiting Mexico. However the climate has become something that cannot be simply considered as a surcharge to be ignored.

I spent half of my young life in Mexico without a problem, but today there are many parts of Mexico where I wouldn't even cross the border at all. I love Mexico, and the Mexican people, but like the USA the winds of disaster are building. Texas has over 1000 miles of border with Mexico, and for much of that 1000 miles anyone's safety within 20 miles of that border on either side is in peril.

I truly wish it were not true but facts are facts!
................................................................Sad!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by ManuelM:

Sir, you must have surely had a very bad experience in my country, and for that I am sorry, but I can assure you not all outfitters here in Mexico see foreign hunters like that, although I won't deny some do. I have an outfit in Sonora and from the few hunts I have done, I have had a positive reaction from my hunters which I consider good friends, I care for the industry and for clients being comfortable, safe and getting a good hunt for their money, and I can personally assure you many other outfitters here share similar stories.

You are entitled to your opinion, but generalizing is never good.

Mr. Maldonado, It is understandable that you would take this personally, but you must understand that in recent years Mexico has become quite dangerous for Americans.
I don't think you would disagree that there are many fishing and hunting areas that used to be favorite places for Americans to go that have become shooting ranges, and kidnapping of Americans for ransom by the cartels.

Mordida has always been a way of life in Mexico, but that was accepted as simply the cost of visiting Mexico. However the climate has become something that cannot be simply considered as a surcharge to be ignored.

I spent half of my young life in Mexico without a problem, but today there are many parts of Mexico where I wouldn't even cross the border at all. I love Mexico, and the Mexican people, but like the USA the winds of disaster are building. Texas has over 1000 miles of border with Mexico, and for much of that 1000 miles anyone's safety within 20 miles of that border on either side is in peril.

I truly wish it were not true but facts are facts!
................................................................Sad!

Well stated Mac and very true! When I was a kid in the 1970's we would go as a family to eat and shop in Juarez. Us kids would just run around on our own. There were no worries. Today...I would not even feel safe with my kids running around alone in El Paso.

I was very nearly a victim of a ransom abduction........By Federales. It has happened to my coworkers as well. I just don't want to end up floating face down in the lagoon. Would feel safer if I could arm myself but no way Jose, even a spent casing in your car and off to prison you go. Total hypocrisy. I actually felt safer in Africa, and I think the murder rate may actually be lower there

I really wish somehow Mexico could become the place we all know and loved. Spot on about not even feeling safe in El Paso. Viva la Revolution!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

Well stated Mac and very true! When I was a kid in the 1970's we would go as a family to eat and shop in Juarez. Us kids would just run around on our own. There were no worries. Today...I would not even feel safe with my kids running around alone in El Paso.

Lane, I lived in El Paso from he age of 13 to the age of 45, and grew up going all over the state of Chihuahua without a thought for my safety. I knew most of the street venders by name in Juarez and most were friends. Today anyone traveling to Mexico is not using their best judgment IMO!

........................................................................

I have lived in Mexico, ranched there, and spent a lot of time there when I lived on the Texas border. Tipping is expected, bribery is accepted ( called mordida ) and hey it is a well oiled machine there and it works pretty damn well for them if one understands how it works, it seems to cut thru a lot of red tape. They pay bribes on top of the table for all to see! its acceptable and a way of life....We on the other hand pass bribes under the table as a high ranking Mexican official once told me..I was incensed at the time, but as I aged it occurred to me he might be smarter than I thought.

I'm comfortable in Mexico and I was comfortable in Zim with it went crazy..I understood the problem and I stayed clear of the town area and stayed in my motel and flew into camp and all went well..In Mexico I would recommend flying from the nearest US border town to the hunting ranch and fly out the same way. Stay off the highways and out of the towns, at least for now.

The cartels have created a hell zone in Mexico., they have basically taken over most of the country. Hopefully that will change in time but who knows. Also the problem is worse in some parts than in others..

Bottom line is I don't see it as fleecing the American rich, it's just the way things are done in a different country to everyone! Its an age old system that they are comfortable with.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by ManuelM:

Sir, you must have surely had a very bad experience in my country, and for that I am sorry, but I can assure you not all outfitters here in Mexico see foreign hunters like that, although I won't deny some do. I have an outfit in Sonora and from the few hunts I have done, I have had a positive reaction from my hunters which I consider good friends, I care for the industry and for clients being comfortable, safe and getting a good hunt for their money, and I can personally assure you many other outfitters here share similar stories.

You are entitled to your opinion, but generalizing is never good.

Mr. Maldonado, It is understandable that you would take this personally, but you must understand that in recent years Mexico has become quite dangerous for Americans.
I don't think you would disagree that there are many fishing and hunting areas that used to be favorite places for Americans to go that have become shooting ranges, and kidnapping of Americans for ransom by the cartels.

Mordida has always been a way of life in Mexico, but that was accepted as simply the cost of visiting Mexico. However the climate has become something that cannot be simply considered as a surcharge to be ignored.

I spent half of my young life in Mexico without a problem, but today there are many parts of Mexico where I wouldn't even cross the border at all. I love Mexico, and the Mexican people, but like the USA the winds of disaster are building. Texas has over 1000 miles of border with Mexico, and for much of that 1000 miles anyone's safety within 20 miles of that border on either side is in peril.

I truly wish it were not true but facts are facts!
................................................................Sad!

Well stated Mac and very true! When I was a kid in the 1970's we would go as a family to eat and shop in Juarez. Us kids would just run around on our own. There were no worries. Today...I would not even feel safe with my kids running around alone in El Paso.

Gentleman, I am glad that you guys had a chance to enjoy my country and also feel really sad you no longer feel comfortable in doing so. My personal opinion is that Mexico has its problems but there are also regions that are hotspots for said problems and that even I would personally avoid specially with a client or a guest, while there are still others that are quite safe particularly along the main freeway and near the capital city of Sonora, I have lived here all my life and have never felt even slightly affected by the cartel violence, nor anyone I personally know, and I spend lots of time travelling, doing road trips and visiting ranches and nearby towns and community lands, if I felt threatened I would not be risking my life by making this small trips neither I would book a hunt in an area were I knew there could be risks to both me and my client. I dont want to pretend there is no violence in Mexico because that would be a lie but it is focused in some areas, particularly along the border. I am really not trying to sugar coat it, and just giving my 2 cents about the subject based on 22 years of living in the country.

By the way I don´t feel offended or attacked by your comments at all, it is always interesting to hear the opinion of foreign citiziens about my country, and for us to share our experiences, in a civil manner of course.

In 2013 I was talking to a famous Arizona Elk and whitetail guide who happened to co-lease or own a ranch across the border from AZ with an American partner. His partner went down to check on the ranch and never came back. They found him with a bullet in his head. Needless to say the famous guide pulled out and said he'd never go back. Did you hear of this incident? In Sonora

quote:

, good to see you have at least progressed socially enough to use the term negroes instead of your usual racial invective. Stick to shilling taxidermy.

Mike

You gotta be shitting me, sit. Good doggy.

I see Gibbs is holding to his previous high standards for communication--

“When my wits fail me, I resort to self-deception." ~ 505 gibbs

hmm, you put me on "ignore" but then take me off each time I post to see what I have to say? I am not versed in the millenials vernacular, but I think that is the definition of "pwned"...let me check...

Pwn is a leetspeak slang term derived from the verb own, as meaning to appropriate or to conquer to gain ownership. The term implies domination or humiliation of a rival, used primarily in the Internet-based video game culture to taunt an opponent who has just been soundly defeated (e.g., "You just got pwned!").

I thought the above fit quite well....