In case you didn't see this on abc news this morning.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/GoodMorningAmerica/GMA030110Family_dog_shot.html

There guys must be the most paranoid, psychotic idiots on the face of the earth.

Then they try to CYA by saying they thought the dog was a pit bull. If that is what they thought they have to be the dumbest mother-fuckers in the whole world.

They are a bunch of bad-asses when they're shooting the family pet.

Apparently the main job qualification is being able to moom walk back the squad car.

I wonder if this will be on an episode of COPS.

Will

What does this have to do with African hunting?

Will,

WE had quite a discussion on this very subject on the Political Forum.

You might like to have a look there.

Unfortunately there are far too many policeman behaving in this manner.

Civilians would be arrested and charged for doing the same.

In fact, the family in the car was arrested for not doing anything illegal.

I'm thinking they thought they had some real and dangerous robbers and weren't worried about being any cordial. But you got to keep your cool as a cop and the dog was wgging his tail. Pit bull or not I think the shooter cop showed too much fear of the dog.

From the limited information in this story, I don't think any of us can say much about it. Keystone Cops meet the Simpsons, with tragic results, is all I can make of it.

Two place names were of interest to me, and yes I have driven this road many times. The speed limit on I-40 is 70 mph, not 110 mph, near Mt. Juliet Tennessee, where I visit The Reloader's Bench to load up on components.

And Cookeville, TN is just southeast of where I kill Russian boars with a spear, in the Cumberland foothills of the Smokies. Small world.

I had better look for the thread Saeed mentioned.

The 110 mph speed was supposedly reported by a 911 caller that they went around but I can't imagine the accuracy of that caller or the father risking his family's lives by driving that fast. I'll bet they were doing 80 instead.

leo,
You are probably right about that.

Someone ought to smear a hot chocolat bar all over that officer's pump shotgun and shove it up his ass!!!---DD

Once again I have to ask are we living in a world of idiots? Im sure the officer was afraid of the dog but come on. The hole thing was a fiasco from the beginning. I have great respect for most law enforcement officers. They do a difficult and sometimes thankless job under all kinds of conditions. They are often second guessed in their actions even when justified. There are always exceptions though. I have seen a few I thought should be treated like Barney Fife. Allowed to keep one bullet in their shirt pocket. Sounds like this bunch not only used poor judgement from the beggining but was looking for their own "5 minutes of fame".

It happend they made a mistake, anybody can make a mistake Hell give the guy a brake at the end of the there are more horrific act than that

I have seen lots and lots of fathers driving very fast and very dangerously with their children in the car. I have seen lots of mothers driving fast in heavy traffic putting on makeup in the rear-view mirror while drinking coffee, eating an Egg McMuffin, and talking on the phone while the van was full of children on the way to school/childcare.

jeffeosso

Grow up you are overreacting

--edited for content--
this is GARBAGE... This was MY reaction, the FIRST TIME i saw it, and in real time. If a "trained professional" can't manage 3 CITIZENS cuffed at their feet and a dog, they need to get off the job.

Felony Animal Abuse, at the minimum.

jeffe

[ 01-15-2003, 19:04: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Jeffeosso:

Flip's right, you need to take a chill pill or admit that you've been taking lessons from Russell.

The "CRIMINALS"


--edited for content--
this is GARBAGE... This was MY reaction, the FIRST TIME i saw it, and in real time. If a "trained professional" can't manage 3 CITIZENS cuffed at their feet and a dog, they need to get off the job.

Felony Animal Abuse, at the minimum.

jeffe

[ 01-15-2003, 19:05: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Yeah, I've seen the video, and while I'm not pleased with it and I think mistakes were made, I'm not nearly as outraged as you seem to be. Mistakes happen, it was a bad set of circumstances that lead to a dog's death. I'm sorry about the dog, but worse stuff happens. No, it's not cool but it's cooler than you are.

Chill jeff................

I agree with Flip and Gatogordo. I think it was a Mistake.

urdubob

Hey Flip,

Don't let jeff run you off...He was just being an ASS. (jeff...what right do you have to tell flip to go to hell...you need some class lessons ......sport.)

urdubob

I do think it is interesting that two pitt bulls killed a woman yesterday and tried to hurt several other people including the cop who killed one of them.

You all might want to read Graham vs Conner which is the US Supreme Court case which governs use of force by peace officers in the United States.

A few points -

1. It does not matter whether the family actually comitted a crime or not. What matters is the perception of the officer on the scene based on the totality of information he/she is given or observes.

2. An officer does not have to wait to be attacked. The pit bull "charged" or "ran toward the officer". Do we reasonably expect the officer to wait to be bitten. Is he supposed to see if its a big bite or a little bite.

If it is your leg and your body are you going to take the chance and say "oh I think this a friendly charge?".

Because one officer "maybe" could/should have have secured the door of the car is not really an issue either.

The question is not right v. wrong but whether the Officers actions are reasonable.

If any one actually wants to discuss this topic (as opposed to flame) please email me and I would be happy to call them.

By the way, from what I can tell that family was detained not arrested. Detentions are covered by Terry v. Ohio which states an officer must have reasonably belief that a crime has been comitted (in this case info from dispatch) and that the person detained is connected with the criminal activity (they match the description).

[ 01-15-2003, 08:47: Message edited by: Mike Dettorre ]

Mike,

I hope you don't think this was a pit bull.

These cops are as dumb as grass. One could spin this to hell and gone, but it doesn't change a thing.

Will

My take is that a wildly creative out of control woman phoned in a made up story about an innocent family and got them almost killed.

What if the 911 caller said they looked armed and dangerous?

I believe the root cause of this is a reasonable stop on the highway by the police, following an unreasonable accusation by a hugely wrong "witness".

Shooting the dog is the last of several grievous mistakes. What did the 911 caller say: OOPS, silly me?

She put the events in motion like calling fire in a theater.

Will,

It doesn't really matter what the breed of dog is(I based my pitt bull comment from one of the accounts)...size of the dog would matter but only to a point. I would probably say up to about 30-35lbs.

Will,

We disagree if you would like to have a factual discussion on why the officer is justified and what the tape does and does not show email me with your phone number and I can call you and explain the current state of case law. You may not like it.

Jameister,

You bring up an interesting point is the RP (reporting party liable) I don't know enough about civil law to answer your question.
You use the word "mistake" that opens a whole bunch of issues up. Not sure I would use that word. I might use tragedy.

[ 01-15-2003, 17:51: Message edited by: Mike Dettorre ]

Well:
First off:
Don't let the liberal agenda take you off on this one.
Agenda= shot dog, sympathy, sell papers, attack police, and the second amendment.

NEVER TRUST THE PAPERS.

DR S

jeffeosso

Rather be glad of the Police you have got, others don't have the luxury of such police. And jeffeosso you have a lot to learn about life, if such small thins makes you over react in such way. I discussed your sad casewith a few people and we all feel sorry for you. One day you might wake up an see the light

Wow. Had no idea there was so much anti-police sentiment around here. Oh well, live and learn.

Been watching this thread for some time now, here and over on the politics page and really had no desire to comment. Starting to bother me now so for anyone who cares, here's my two cents.

I was a cop for 11 years, last 3 as a K-9 officer. I currently have 3 dogs, probably have another this spring. I love dogs as much as anyone I guess so when I first read about this I was bothered too. I agree with Russel when he mentioned dogs being family members...amen.

I don't know anything about the shooting or what led up to it. Don't know the people involved or how any of them happened into that bad situation, what transpired before or after what was shown on video because I wasn't there. I do know that I feel bad for them. Feel bad for the dog, family, officers that had to see it and were a part of it, everyone.

Jeffe, if you feel the officer was wrong, screwed up, was scared, derelict in his duty, abused his position and power, o.k.. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it just like the rest of us Americans. From what I've read he probably was wrong, but I'm not going to Monday morning quarterback the guy because I wasn't there and I wasn't in his shoes. Be mad Jeffe, be outraged. It's your right.

This was a bad deal, for everyone. Want to hear what else is bad? For every Jeffe or 500grains out there there are just as many people who bitch at us for not doing enough. "Why don't those damn cops do something about that drug house", "Why don't those damn cops do something about the speeders on this street?", "Why don't those damn cops do something about those damn snipers?". And then, when we do, here comes Jeffe screaming"...civil rights! They can't do that!". And then, to top it all off, you get the administrators who listen to all the people who feel compelled to voice an opinion, right or wrong, and they start writing policy by it. I can just see the day after in the agency from the above incident. "It shall be the policy of this agency that under no circumstances shall any officer discharge his or her weapon at any dog without first obtaining clearance from his or her supervisor." And it won't be because they're thinking about the animal or the family who owned it or something silly like officer safety. It'll be because it got them alot of bad press from guys like Jeffe. Just tie the hands of good officers a little more behind their backs. I guarantee you won't see stories in the media covering all the dog bites of officers later.

I'm going to apologize to you Jeffe for using you so much as an example here. Only did so because you seem to be the most vocal and upset about it. Again, that's your right. If you want to assign blame go ahead.

Who's fault is it anyway? The officer's? The speeding dad? The dog's? The dispatcher's? The reporting party? Everybody's? Don't know...I wasn't there. Probably doesn't matter at this point. I'm sure the guy will lose his job and the family won't get their dog back. Everybody loses.

Whew, I feel much better now. Would somebody please make a comment about the 45/70 in Africa or something like that so I can start enjoying you guys again?

RGraff,
You made it 11 years? Wow, thats alot longer than I made it. I got tired of the disrespectfull and unappreciative public after a little over 2 years as a deputy sherrif. I have to totally agree with your coments about people complaining about law enforcement officers. It's a double edged sword, if you act, they complain about the abuses of power. If you don't react then they climb all over you for not doing your job. I applaud the people that stick it out, I also know a few that need to get out, but are stuck because they don't have another avenue to travel.
Elk Country

You just can't whitewash this. The guys were totally out of control.

They may have been speeding, but if that is an excuse for handcuffs, every cop would be in irons. When is the last time you say a cop doing the speed limit, except when trying to intimidate other drivers.

The dog jumps out of the car and is running around with its tail wagging and they blow the damn thing at point blank range. Jesus.

I've even tried to blow away one of the neighbors Rotweilers (sp?) that came after me but I missed. It is not that some dogs don't deserve it, but this was totally uncalled for, and stupidity reigned.

I'm getting a dog tag made up for my Lab..."I am not a pit bull."

Will

Well, I may as well weigh in and get blasted. I don't think that Jeffeosso is a liberal. Even if he is, it doesn't matter. He is not the only one concerned when police wearing masks and hoods can legally kick your door in. Was I the only one concerned at seeing a hooded policeman with a CAR type weapon searching vehicles during the "sniper" scare around DC? Why the hood? How many cops were looking for a white van? What can stop them from kicking in my door 3 milliseconds after screaming 'Police", because I made someone mad and they put in a phoney call to the police. I expect that people who wear a uniform, and who I am bound to obey, act with some discipline. I know that I am not a policeman and therefore, according to some, am therefore disqualified from commenting on this case, but I am an avid shooter and therefore see many LEO's at the range. Many of these are "SWAT" team members, and alas, many are, in my opinion, "cowboys". That's the scary part. I think with that much power (and firepower)should come a commensurate amount of responsibility and maturity. I did not see much evidence of that in the news footage.
Peter.

Will,

By your whitewash comment I am going to assume you were referring to my post. If not, my apologies.

I thought I made it pretty clear that I don't know what happened and if you guys want to say the officers were out of control, so be it. Maybe they were. Maybe I should have stated my position a little clearer. If the officers were negligent, out of control, abusive, etc., I agree, they should be punished. Reprimand, restitution, firing, whatever is deemed necessary and/or fitting. I don't know because I didn't see the video and I wasn't there. Please let me know if anyone else still requires clarification.

What I was trying to impress on some of you was that even though the job has it's fair share of knuckleheads and morons (I've worked with plenty of them) try to remember that the majority of cops on the street are as hard working, decent, mindful of civil rights, and compassionate as most of you. They are doing a job (willingly) that is unbelievably tough to do without having to worry about the next lawsuit or ridiculous policy manual. I only say this because some of you seem to have taken this bad incident and want to paint all officers out there as either being idiots or some kind of Rambo wanabes and it's just not true. The good guys still outnumber the bad.

Looks like I'm doing as much to prolong this ridiculous thread as the rest of you. Shame on me. Let's get back to the good stuff and I promise to shut up.

Call me a heartless bastard and I am the last one on this board to back up law enforcement but . . . IT'S A DOG for Christ's sake! ! !
I like dogs and understand that they can be part of the family but if a random canine that is obviously going to be excited, confused, and perhaps angry given the situation decides to move in my direction and I have a shotgun. HE GETS WHACKED.

That said, if the stop was that much of a big deal, the officers should have instructed the occupants away from the vehicle while ordering them to keep the dog inside and then let animal control take care of the dog. But, hey I wasn't there and it is always possible that all other options were exhausted for whatever reason.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

[ 01-16-2003, 02:54: Message edited by: JohnTheGreek ]

Gentlemen: There is about a 100% chance that you are being played by the news media.

EVERYTIME I rushed to judgement on a news story, during law school, subsequent facts, brought up in pleadings, and final judgments, ALWAYS resulted in an incorrect conclusion on my part.

My favorite was a story about kids in an LA school, that had "broken in" by falling through the roof, and then sued the school district.
The newspapers presented the story as the kids were trying to break into the classroom, to steal property.
The facts, later reported, were the following:
the roof was easily accessible, and, the kids played on the roof, kicking balls around etc.
The school district KNEW the kids played on the roof, and that the roof was unsafe. They failed to post signs, remove the children, or take any action, which by law they HAVE to do, to prevent the unsafe situation, 2-5 grade kids playing on a school roof. The roof failed, kids fell through,
and were injured. The news media totally distorted, and misrepresented the facts.

Let the courts, and lawyers, and police, find the facts, and the situation WILL be handled properly in the justice system.

Do NOT allow the newspapers, and news media, to create strife, and conflict, among friends, or, create anger and frustration in your person. Enough REAL stuff happens that serenity should be a personal goal.

As for being a police officer, I am SURE it's a job, like teaching, that most of you don't want, once you deal with the reality of the job.

DR S

Seems like some here have actually particpated in what is generally defined as "high risk/felony" stops or arrests (understand that what you learn after the fact about an impending stop or arrest doesn't count as to how you approach it because a mistake means you don't go home).

Those that seem to have that experience seem to have much more reasonable opinions about this subject.

If Jeffe is a liberal I'll be a flaming left wing radical.

Ok John, you are a heartless bastard. What if it had been your son, your daughter, or your wife the cop had shot because he thought they were a threat. This cop is absolutely respresentative of abuse of power. There is no reason on earth for him to shoot someones pet when it's running around wagging its tail wanting to play. And with his complete lack of self control and inability to interpret a situation as it unfolds he should have no authority over anything on the planet.

If you watch the video several times, make sure you take it all in, these are dangerous cops who should not be given a gun. I haven't heard what the dispatcher told the cops but no one, based on hearing the 911 call, had any reason to believe this was a felony stop requiring multiple officers with shotguns aimed at innocent citizens.

I think what pisses me off more than the idiot shooting the dog is the attitude that it's only a dog, and he's a cop, and it's dangerous out there so it 's ok. If you support this type of police action you need to move to China or North Korea, then you can really get involved with official repression.

Regards,
The only left wing member of the NRA and TSRA