Ganyana

How is S355 doing in your rifle, I want to try it in my 9.3x62, I tried S335 but got not good accuracy, 3 inch groups the norm, with 62 grain S365 I get 2220 fps with 1 1/2 inch groups, this is a compacted load, I want to try form more fps something in the 2350 fps, have you maybe tried s341, don't know whitch to try, any idees

Thanks

Flip

Ganyana,

Thanks very much for your reply.

Do you feel confident making a heart shot on elephant, shooting through the front leg with your FMJ?

Or would you avoid this shot with any caliber?

The Penetration Index is pretty good for this load, about 103, which is similar to a 220 grain 30-06, and more than a typical .458 winchester.

By the way, that Nosler factory ammo load is just above 5,000 kjoules so should be legal anywhere the 9.3 is.

Thanks, Andy

Hi Flip

Getting very good accuracy with 355 and have started using it in my light hunting loads as well as the dangerous game loads. I get no measurable case head expansion at the listed loads using CCI magnum primers and RWS or Norma brass

Got surprisingly good accuracy with 335 in converted 30-06 brass and loaded at 2280fps (51grns CCI mag primer)with the speer 270grn bullet but accuracy fell off and presures rose quite quickly there after, hence my recent switch to S355 ( Got my best results in my old Mauser using a blend of S341 and S361) In my new rifle though, I am getting 1" groups with the speer bullets and 355. Stuarts or Woodleighs are giving me 1" at 50 meters

Andy

Have shot elephant straight through the front leg into the heart with a wooleigh solid at the above load. Nimrod custom ammo used a photo of that Bullet for their brochure. Was straighter than most mono's one recovers. NB Doctari recomends down loading the .375 to 2450fps as bullets survive better and penetration is greater than at the regulation velocity. Also remember that it was the .375 FLANGED (300grn at 2450fps) that Taylor raved about, not the belted!

.

Ganyana,

Was that FMJ recovered in the heart or did it pass through it?

I am thinking of making a carry all day DGR in 9.3 x 62mm.

What weight all up with scope, sling and ammo would you recommend?

Andy

Hello Andy,

If you want to use it exclusively as DGR, I suggest you opt for the Schmidt und Bender scope of 1.25 - 4 x 20 mm. The best there is in my humble opinion. Scope mounting should be such that you get immediately a full circle when you shoulder the rifle. Fast shooting is critical with a DGR. A rifle weight of 8 lbs is my preferance. That will take the recoil away better than a light weigth of 6.5 lbs (like the old Hasqvarna's). It should nicely balance just in front of the trigger guard when you hold it in one hand. For a dangerous game rifle I do not like slings that can get hooked on anything when in a tight spot. Sod's law says that sling will get hooked on something when you can least afford it. For convenience a sling is great, but when you are in hostile territory, just take it off.

Just my ideas.
Take care
Chris

Speaking of downloading a 375 is strickly forbidden at this site!
Where might the 9.3x57 fit in the scheme of things? I don't know much about it, just what COTW says, and what is printed in Safari Rifles (Boddington), yet I find it intriguing, but for bears though.
What sort of feed rail work would be needed to do a "x62" in a VZ-24? Will it fit without hanging up somewhere? TIA ~~~Suluuq

.

Hi Andy

Bullet passed right through leg (bone) and chest and was found under the skin on the offside of a fully grown bull. I generally don't recover the bullets unless they hit the bone as on a side body shot they just go right through. On a side brain they exit and even on a frontal brain I have had two exit and two stay lodged in the spine (different angles)

My Current 'All round rifle' was built in New Zeland by North-South outdoors. It is a damulin barreled action on a fancy synthetic stock (not the damulin factory ones- they flex!!!!) Has QD scope mounts - with three sight options. A Surefire red dot (mounts on the fromt mount only) a Leupold 1-4 and a Nikkon (30mm tube) 1.5-6. It has a peep sight that mounts on the rear scope mount as back up.

I personally like that little surefire sight for all dangerous game hunting. It is fast and works day or night.

Stock was selected for use with the surefire or the (high) mounted peep sights, so the low mounted leopold works well also.

Went for a detachable box magazine as when the scope is mounted it can be a pain to reload. Have both three and 5 round mags. All up, loaded with three rounds and the surefire it weighs 7 1/4 lbs.

As a rifle to take out to shoot an impala for rations or normal PAC work it is great. I made one mistake though - thefront sling swivel is mounted on the barrel instead of on the front (ie parallel to the barrel) of the fore end. I use a sling and quite like the ching sling/safari sling. With the barrel band where it is I cannot use the sling as a shooting aid.

It goes without saying that the sling has QD mounts in case I have to follow up something into thick stuff. The peep sight stays in my cammel back when not on the rifle, but if I have the surefire fitted I would leave that on for a follow up.

I like the rifle beace it feels so "alive" in my hands, bit like an M1 carbine or my Winchesters 92 or 71.

That said, it lacks the horsepower needed for backing up a client. Me hunting, no problem. I am on 39 consecutive 1 shot kills on bull buff with my 9,3 - but wound one with the first shot and need to bring it down after that and the 9,3 is a little wanting - but then so is a .375

Carry the rifle muzzel down on the left side, since I can no longer take the weight of a rifle carried over my right shoulder (Mr man with an AK did that for me) but I still often shoot it right handed. Even allowing for the danaged right shoulder the recoil is manageable (I shoot anything bigger than a .404 left handed these days) Also, if you are going to carry muzzel down, remember to put tape over the muzzel.

My old Model A Mauser wighed just over 8lbs - but had no sling and a peep sight on the cocking piece as the only sight option. That was equally "alive" in my hands and was pleasant to shoot as well even though I never got arround to removing the metal butt plate.

I agree with Jeff Cooper that you should be able to grab the rifle by the action and hold it straight out in front of you for a minuite. If you cannot, the rifle is too heavy or you are too out of condition to come on a dangerous game hunt. The main point is though that the rifle must "feel" right. I have tried many lightweight rifles that were an abomination before the Lord and many a 14lb double that I would gladly carry as it didn't seem to weigh as much as the scale said, and mounted like lightning.

I think that it is also vitally important with a light cartrige like a 9,3 that it does fit you like the proverbial glove. You have no spare horsepower to turn an animal and no "concussion effect" on a head shot that misses the brain. I put 1000rnds through my Mauser before I was happy that I could dig myself out of all scrapes with it indaylight, and was on my second barrel before I was comfortable that I could hit a orange (or a buff spine) at 10 paces in the dark (without sights) every time.

If BS was buffalo..... There is nothing wrong with lightweight rifles. They shoot just as good as heavy ones.



And velocity, though maybe not needed at 50 yards, is all important when hunting at 300 or 400 yards, and inbetween. Bullet drop is bullet drop and to minimize it you gotta have speed!



But then the 9.3 ain't a 400 yard rifle!

Mr Bekker,

As a fan of yours who enjoyed your "View from the Veld" column in Sporting Rifles immensely, I would like to second ALF in welcoming you here.

Some time ago I had suggested to our very kind host that AR puts up a web magazine and he had agreed to this. I would request you to please give us some of your superb old articles and also write for the members here.

Thank you very much and I shall be one of those who eagerly waits for your posts. And thank you very much, ALF, for inviting Mr Bekker here.

Good hunting, everyone!

There is very little, which is to say nothing, that the 9.3s will do that a .338 Winchester Magnum--with premium bullets--won't do better and at far longer range.



I'd use one with good bullets on anything walking--if not charging!



High velocity is only the enemy of bad bullets!

Yeah maybe but the 338 Win Mag is not a legal DG caliber in Africa.

One can go on with these debates forever eg, the 35 whelan is as good if not better than the 338 win mag in certain circumsatnces.

What about bullet diameter? Doesn't that count? I am sure it does. If thats the case then the 9.3 will have it over the 338 Win Mag on DG even if it is slight.

They are both good calibers and both have their merits.

As some may know I have been wringing out the 9.3 in prep for a hunt to Tanzania. I have determined that it is quite possible to shoot the 250 Nosler BT to 2600-2650fps; the 270 Speer to 2500 fps; and I am working with the 286gr bullet, for which there are numerous loads at 2400fps. Although I am doing velocity testing, this is not simply a speed thing. I have also considered the characteristics of the bullets I am dealing with, the animals I am hunting, and the ranges at which they will be engaged.

Velocity, as pointed out here, is not everything. For example, the 270 Speer could be shot a little faster but to what end given that it is soft at 2500fps. On the other hand, my personal experience and that shared by others indicates that the 250BT is an incredibly versatile bullet that is very stout. It is capable of holding together at almost muzzle velocities, yet at 2650fps has a maximum 6" point blank range of almost 275 yards.

The performance envelopes for the 286 bullets, the bullet weight I wanted to use on heavy animals and dangerous game, if necessary, is another story. The 286 Woodleigh soft point round nose (m47) has an envelope of 1700-2200fps. With a muzzle velocity of 2400fps, it would have to go nearly 75 yards before it slows to within those speeds. What do you do with a lion at 35yards? On the other hand, I called Nosler and I am reliably informed that the 286 Nosler Partition will expand at an impact velocity of 1800fps or greater. I initially decided to use the Nosler Partition, but on reflection I may change my mind.

I always intended to take the Woodleigh solids for dangerous game follow up and insurance shots, one of the reasons I was interested in the Woodleigh SP's. On reflection, that still may be a good idea. My thinking is that they both would be loaded to 2350fps to be used within 100 yds. They'd be capable of good penetration, feed smoothly, are reliable, have low recoil, and would be quick on follow up. If zeroed for maximum point blank range, all the bullets, 250s and 286s, have virtually the same ballistic curve to 150 yards, and the 286gr bullets are within an inch of one another out to 200 yards.

My thinking is that I'll take the Partitions for longer shots at "really" big game at over 100 yards. The real choice becomes logistical in terms how many of what you take given the limited weight of ammo they will let you carry without charging you extra.

In sum, you need to know what your options are, and make reasoned choices based upon fact. The good news is that we have some excellent options. Ku-dude

mrlexma

I have to say, I have both, I like both but when it comes to dangerous game I would prefer my 9.3x62, I might be a little biased because the 9.3x62 is the love of my love, but still I prefer it, but don't through the 338 out, it is a good round for all game

Ku-dude.

I'm not a big fan of multiple loads for one gun. Seems like the wrong bullet is always in the chamber when game shows up. Pick one and forget about the hypothetical advantages of the others. The Woodleighs and Nosler partitions sound good to me and I would pass on the Nosler ballistic tips. I have much more faith in the effective performance of Woodleigh soft points at close range than I do in the performance of ballistic tips on anything larger than a deer. I had a hunting partner in Alaska who always carried a clip for his 30-06 in his pocket loaded with 220 gr soft points for bear protection. He was charged by a brown bear sow on Afognak Is. and had to dispatch the bear with the deer loads in the rifle. The 2 seconds or so he had to react just wasn't enough time to grab the 220's. A lucky shot helped a 150 gr federal soft point solve the problem.

Paul

When it comes to DG, there ain't one time in a hundred that it is going to make any difference what rifle it is 'cause there ain't one guy in a hundred that is going to hit anything in a charge!

Will,

You must have had a really bad day shooting pheasants! Ku-dude

Saturday morning I dropped this whitetail running at about 125 yards, and then tried to put in a finishing shot, a miss, and then the third shot....pulling and pulling the trigger, on a spent cartridge!



Oh yeah, bring on them charging lions!

I notce a little barb in Will�s earlier post

One of the attractions of a light rifle like a 9,3 is that you can usually shoot everything with it. I have never seen a HUNTER take a shot at over 150m in this country, so actually a .458 win has a plenty flat enough trajectory for all round use - Glen Tatham, Chief warden of Zim parks for many years used his for everything from Impala up. I must say that the recoil, of even the heavier .375's got to me. Some men can handel it - my initial tutor used a .404 and wore out a barrel a year ( he was shooting arround 1500 buffalo and two hunded or so elephants plus plains game each year and 100 rounds a month on the range)

Before I went on my first cull, John Davis got myself and another vetinary cadet to each fire 1000 rounds of 7.62 from converted lee enfields and 50 rounds from our heavy rifles. We spent three days shooting at bricks thrown into the air and targets placed inside car tires and rolled accross our fronts. We had a team of about thirty vet fence guards and general hands to do the work. I needed the practice - even though I already held national colours for rifle shooting. I am a rifle shot not a shotgunner and bouncing and flying targets were not my forte. - It is something I still need to keep working on!

I strongly suspect that too many hunters do far too little practice. Certainly most of the local lads think that if they have fired 50 rounds in a year practice that is good. They are then upset when we tell them that they are not good enough to help out on a cull. Shooting one ele or buff is easy- shooting thirty out of a herd without a single back up shot/wounding one, or - as I saw Ken worsley do, drop three that are charging in under five seconds- takes practice.

I can understand for a recreational hunter up to a point, The hunt is the sport not the shooting, but for a "professional"? I find it an odd concept. A sport shooter who is serious shoots a lot. Mike Voight, Rob Letham and Ron Avery whom I shot along side at the last world IPSC champs fired 2000 rounds a day in the week before the main match as a warm up. Us peasants from Zim were lucky to manage 200. In the run up to the rifle match for the All Africa Games in Harare, the police issued each member of the squad three Steyr target rifles and 10,000 rounds of match grade ammo to work up to speed with. It showed. The Americans slaughtered us at IPSC, and we won the All Africa games and the world long range championships (palma match). Rounds fired in meanigful practice make all the difference

In many ways, I would consider a "dual purpose" cartrige along the lines of A squar's to be a better "all round" rifle than a 9,3 simply because you can shoot pistol bullets for practice or at plains game.

Common somebody- design the 9,3/.375's replacement. A true .40 cal shooting .350grn bullets at 2400fps or standard 180/200 grn .401 bullets intended for .40 S&W at the same speed - or at least point of impact. Would hit harder than a .375 on the big stuff, recoil about the same as a .308 when shooting the pistol bullets (and be prety darn cheep to shoot). Must fit in a standard (.458 win or 30-06) length action and I am not sold on belted rounds.

Ganyana,



It is a good thing that a few of my barbs get noticed!



It is one thing to have the gov't supporting the required time and money for anyone to shoot a 1000 rounds a day and another for the tourist hunter. For the hunter that can afford it, all that time and practice would be great but it ain't going to happen in my case.



It is one thing to be a "good" shot and another to be a good shot on dangerous game, or a good shot when things go to crap, or a good shot in the presence of a backup hunter.



A "good" shot tourist hunter can be mostly placing the first shot well on standing animals. After that, being a good shot on running game, running dangerous game, and charging dangerous game is going to be partly presence of mind, practice at shooting, and experience. Getting enough experience at shooting charging dangerous game is going to be tough to come by for any PH much less any tourist!



As to the 9.3 for dangerous game, there was an article in a recent Magnum that claimed the 9.3x62 wasn't big enough for the Big 5 based on shooting a roan and some other game but that the .375 H&H is big enough, apparently based upon no experience. I have to give the guy credit for having the guts to put that in print.



All of the much discussed calibers for all their supposed unique nuansces are going to be good enough in 99% of the cases of flying over to drop a buffalo on a 7 or 10 day hunt, whether using the latest super duper cupped point monolithic bullet or old style softs, if the first shot is in the right place.



The other 1%? You pay your money and take your chances!

Will - of cource you are right, and, for most 'clients' it is about hunting not shooting. All I ask is that they can hit a stationary 6" circle every time at 50 yards within a reasonable period of time. Sadly this seems a bit to much of a challenge for may - including alot of recreational hunters who live out here. "Die Boere en say Rouer" is nearly as big a myth as an honest politician

Mehul,

We are in the process of giving AR a face lift, once that is done, I have already got a couple of articles from kind members of this forum, and would ad them, as well as any new ones I get, to our proposed online magazine.

Will

The guy that posted the article on the 9,3 in the Magnum is confused.....had he used a 375 and placed the shots exactly where he placed them with the 9,3 the results would have been the same.Shot placement and bullet selection still stays on top for me.

Ganyana
Could not agree more with you.You will be amazed at the results of some of the hunters during our monthly Hunters Association shoots.I have seen shots on an impala target which covers the animal from tail to jaw.

Kudu

I also tend to down load my 375 in velocity by using a 350 gr. Woodleigh in it and the same with a 320 gr. in my 9.3x62 and drive them pretty fast in my 26" barrels at about 2300 to 2400 FPS..

However, after observing Saeed kill more than 20 or 30 buffalo with his 375/404 at 2700 and 2900 FPS, it has become clear that a "monolithic bullet" driven at high velocity is a absolute killer, has worlds of penitration and lots of terminal damage, and sheds a new light on the old slow bullet therory....

Monolithics are changing the picture IMO...I just have not quite caught up with the rest of the world...As stated in Man Magnum, the monolithic put the .375 in the pound seats, maybe he was right, but then I have no complaints on the .375 with the 350 gr. woodleigh soft of solid, nor with a good premium 300 gr..

Recoil comparisons for 9.3 x 62 and .375 H & H.

286 grain - 58 gr powder - 2430 fps from std 60 cm barrel. (Recommended load from two highly reliable sources). 8.0 lb rifle. 35 ft pounds recoil, 17 fps recoil velocity. 8.5 lb rifle, 33/16.

300 grain - 68 gr powder - 2550 fps (Nosler reloading manual). 10.0 lb rifle. 36 ft lbs/15 fps. 8.5 lb rifle, 43/18.

The little beasty really does carry alot of punch for such a light recoil.

Does anyone here recall who re-finished and re-shaped the stock of Judge G's CZ action? Cant find it on the search feature.

Thanks, Andy

Andy,

The 9.3 is legal in most places for DG but it ain't a .375 either. The 9.3 is a powder puff to shoot compared to the .375 or .416's because it is! Overall, all other things being equal, with a 9.3 there is the potential for greater magazine capacity and a lighter weight rifle, faster recovery from a shot, and easier to shoot both in real life and for practice.

It is fun to shoot, and I too am tempted to make it into something it isn't. I did consider it as being enough gun for elephant but chickened out and its big safari was restricted to riding around in the Cruiser!

Hi,

I just ordered som Rino bullets in 9.3, 250 grainers. Anybody have any experience with these?

.

Alf



Those Rhino bullets are impresive

What a perfect expansion.

I have a box of 270 grn for my 375 that I will be making when I get the time.



Cheers,



Andr�

Will,

Not all of us are as senile and incompetent as you obviously are. Shall we appoint a boy to stand with you during deer hunts and verbally remind you to cycle the aciton in the future?

Perry

Appoint a good looking chick instead, and I'd be all for it!

Alf: Thanks for the pics, I also ordered Rhinos in .375 and .416! I haven�t yet seen load data for Vihtavuori powders and monolithic bullets, guess I�ll just have to let boha figure it out.

Very impressive performance.

I have a Brno M-21 in 9.3x62, weighs 7.5 lbs. with a 26 inch tube and iron sights, I load the 320 gr. Woodleigh solids and softs that hit the same POI at 100 yds. velocity is almost 2400 FPS in that long tube..I am confident enough in it to take on any buffalo, but more gun is always good if you can shoot it...

I built my present 9.3x62 for one purpose, that is tagging along behind hunters and PH during long stints in Africa..It is much lighter than my 404, 375 or 470, and I am not likely to need to partake in the shooting, but you never know, and I have partook int he past on several ocassions.

Its a real handy trim slim little gun, and based on bulls that I have shot with the 375 H&H and bulls I have shot with the 9.3x62.... I see little, if any, in the killing ability of either caliber..Put either in the shoulder of a bull and the bull will go down or run 50 yards and pretty much give it up, about what I have come to expect from any caliber capable of killing buffalo...

As to stopping a charge, I suspect whatever I have in my hand will either stop him or it won't, if I do my part it will and if I screw up the shot it won't...I think some tend to think or find confidence in big huge bores that they think will stop a Buffalo or whatever with any shot placement. But,I have observed buffalo shot 13 times with a 470 and 500 and another shot 9 times with 470s.. I have that event on film. Shot placement is everything IMO.

I also believe the .338 is capable of killing buffalo and even a properly loaded 35 Whelen should be capable...

But when I go after my bulls each year, I will use a 416, 375, 404 or 470 about every time...It just makes me feel secure, and shot placement combined with a big caliber sure makes since to me..

I guess what I am saying is there is two schools of thought on the subject and neither is wrong, and both are right....
If someone told me tomarrow that I had to shoot all the rest of my game in Africa witha 9.3x62, I'd say OK and go get a cup of coffee and watch National Finals Rodeo I taped last night, never give it a second thought.

Will,

I really am embarased to be seen in public buying a low velocity cartridge. It will be my first unless you count that .54 muzzle loader. I can only hope it is more effective!

So far you all have been so kind as not to say, "I told you so!"

Seriously, I am thinking of this as something like Ray has described. My 375 improved weighs 10 pounds w scope and sling and my 450 Dakota, 11 pounds. I sold my "light" rifle, a 416 Remington on a Dakota that weighed only 8.5 pounds w sling, scope and ammo. This really was no fun to shoot as it has a very straight slim line pistol grip. So it will be for my old age, or my wife I think.

A 286 grain North Fork and matching Woodleigh FMJ will be first things I try.

Please do help me find a resource for turning that American stock into a classic. I think Judge G had one reworked???

AHR has Mod 70 trigger and safety for the CZ 550, and they work and look good on my CZ based 450 Dakota.

Does anyone know if you can get the so-called American style stock with a detachable magazine like Ganyana recommended? That would be useful for sorting out your North Forks from your FMJ's!

Andy