I have already chosen to purchase the .416 Remington Magnum for a future hunt to Africa and to also use on the big bears in Alaska. But i havent seen any posts on the .458 Win. Mag. in the last month or so and was wonderin gif it also is a good choice for the above mentioned. I think the 416 is maybe better with the 400 grain bullets but hows that 458 with its 500 grain bullets, and how heavy do the bullets get for the 416. Did i make a good choice in the 416 for dangerious african game? Thanks Tanoose

The .416 is a very good choice for the hunting of African dangerous game and any of the big bears. It has a flatter trajectory with the 400gr. bullets than the .458 has, so you can shoot large plains game out to say, 200yds.

.416s are also usually built lighter than .458s, so they're easier to carry.

George

Tanoose, you made a superb choice foracombination bear and Africa rifle. The 416 bullets range up to 450gr such as the Woodleigh. Many feel the 416 has replaced the 375 as the perfect allround Africa rifle, good for all up to and including the big stuff. It is popular to knock the 458 WM but it is really a fine caliber. Since it hit Africa in 1955, I would not be surprised to learn that it had been used to actually kill more elephant and buffalo than all other calibers combined.

P.S. I think the .458WM is a GREAT round. I just think you made a better choice for what it is you're going to use it for. If you were going to hunt elephant and buffalo REGULARLY, a large .45 (or bigger) is a better choice.

George

George,
My 458,sighted in 2 inches high at 100,is only about 3 inches low at 200 yards.Somehow I'd say that was plenty flat to take ANY plains game out to 200 yards.This is with a 500 grain Hornady RNSP at about 2050 FPS.

Tanoose,
The bad thing about the 416 Remington is that they've discontinued brass for it.This means you get the fun of either A)Forming from 375 H&Hs B)Paying through the nose to someone who still has some for sale.

If you plan on mostly hunting big bears,elk in the timber,cape buffalo,elephant and other big,tough animals,and plan to not take shots on game much past 250 yards,go with the 458.You can load it with 500s at 2150 FPS,on down to 300s at 1200 FPS for cheap,zero recoil practice.Then of course we have the plethora of cast bullets running from 300 to 600 grains.

Tanoose,

Your posting suggests that you have only chosen the 416 "in your mind" at this stage.

I think the main advantage of the 416 is that is seen on the forums and gun magazines as the "acceptable" caliber as compared to the 458.

I have not been to Africa or shot big bears, but it would seem to me that the very few animals that you would shoot, the luck of the draw will determine which caliber was best. Who knows, a bear shot with a 270 on a particualr shot might go down much quicker than if hit with a 416. Of course 20 bears and the results would come in on the 416's side.

Where the 458 wins (and this may not apply or interest you) is for all other shooting.

For example, Sierra still don't make a bullet in 416. Hornady make a 400 grainer in 416 and they make a 300, 2 350s and a 500 in 45. Speer make a 350 mag tip in 416 and a 350 mag tip and 400 flat point in 458.

Winchester Australia does not even import 416 Remingtons. It is all 375, 458 and CZ 416 Rigby. The Australian Remington agents see the 416 Remington as a discontinued item.

As to trajectory, I spent about 2 years using nothing but a pair of Model 70 458s loaded with 400 Speer flat points shooting roos and pigs on out flat country.

The two countries where lots of shooting is done are Australia and Africa and 416s are real thin on the ground, but not 458s, whether those 458s be the Winchester or Lott.

Mike

Well, I am not knocking the 458 but to say that the 416 are seldom in use is just bullshit!
I sell big bore rifles to hunter going primarily to Africa. I sell 416 Rem Mags (mostly M 70's and Dakota Arms) out the whazoo. The last time I sold a 458 was just last month BUT that was so I could send it off and have it made into a 458 Lott for the customer.
Now, I have nearly two cases of 416 Rem Mag ammo in house and it will be gone before the summer is out. I have a couple of boxes of 416 Rigby and that will hold me for no telling how long. I have dust on the few boxes of 458 ammo I have in house.
These 416 Rem Mag rifles I am selling are not just sitting in some damn gun cabinet..they are being taken to Africa and being used. If worse comes to worse I can supply names and dates they are / were used.
I don't know squat about what is going on in Aussie land but I damn sure know what is leaving here and going to Africa and sometimes Alaska.
I still sell more 416 than I do 375 H&H.

Harry's right! from where I sit, the 416 Rem Mag is top seller here to folks going to Africa. That is, folks buying "NEW" rifles. Dakota probably makes more 416 Rem Mags that any other chambering for DGR use. I believe the 416 Rem Mag to be the one "NEW" cartridge, that is actually valuable, and very well ballanced.

All that out of the way, there are more 375 H&Hs going to Africa, and Alaska than 416 "ANYTHINGS". This fact is due to a lot of folks that have been shooting the 375 H&H for 50 years, and they see no need for a new rifle for an all around for Africa. The 458 Win Mags that you see in Africa, are usually in the hands of PHs, and are usually old Mod 70s, or BRNO. The fact is most people who have hunted Africa for some years,and own a 375 H&H, also own a 458 win mag, and wouldn't turn either loose.

The problem, I see, with the 458 Win Mag is first, and foremost, BAD PRESS, though not necessarily deserved. The bad press started when a bunch of factory ammo caused some problems. It seems gun people remember the bad press, a lot longer than they do the remedy for the problem.

The 458 Is a handloading proposition, in my view. This cartridge should have never been loaded with a bullet heavier than 450 grs. and handloads with this bullet, are fine performers. I use 400 gr bullets in mine, and it will shoot right along with a 416 Rem Mag at under 200 yds. Nothing else is needed in Africa, with a 450 bore rifle. The 375 H&H will still shoot flatter than the 416 RM, but doesn't have the poop, at the shoulder of the buffalo!

I guess what I'm trying to say here is,if you have a 458 Win Mag, CRF, and a 375 H&H also in a CRF rifle, there is no need to buy something new for a trip to Africa. The money would be better spent on another trophy or two, IMO! If you do want to buy a new 416 Rem Mag, Harry can take care of that for you, and I will personally vouch for his integrity, what you buy is what you will get!

[ 05-28-2002, 19:23: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

I agree with Harry and Rusty, the 416 has about put the 458 out to pasture and rightfully so..I never was a fan of the 458 as I consider it a poorly designed cartridge that just got by because it was the only whore in town...

Don't misunderstand me, the 458 is acceptable as a DGR with proper handloads but it has had a bad reputation over the years and now the enhanced ammo is causing the same high pressures...right or wrong, it has been the topic of conversation for years and with all that smoke, there just has to be some fire IMHO...

Ray,

What do you think of Remington's use of the Swift 450gr. A-Frame in place of a 500gr. bullet? It raises velocities to 2150fps, has a "pointed" noise (better feeding?), and I would think it reduces the possibility of a squib load.

George

The 416's are great rifles. I have done a one rifle Africa hunt using a 416 Rigby on everything from impala to buffalo and it was dandy. However; bad bullets, bad press, subpar velocities and excess pressures aside, I'd bet you dollars to donuts that among PH's hunting alone, or culling rangers in Africa, as far as elephant and buffalo are concerned, when given the choice between any of the 416's and a 458WM would pick the 458 by a wide margin. It's a different ballgame when there's no one with a bigbore backing you up. Same poll to the
PH's about best choice of the two for their hunting clients would likely go to the 416. To me, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a better caliber for the big stuff.

Harry, Since that dusty old ammo is just taking up space you should be willing to let me have it cheap. I mean after all Im doing you a favour by making room for the real inventory.
In all seriousness email me with what you have and what you want for it. If I like it Ill combine with an order for some more wipeout your about to get.

The .458 may be a bit outdated, and there are any number of "newer-better-whatever", but there is a certain amount of romance to shooting a classic safari rifle chambered in .458

I'll be taking mine, because that has been my dream since before the .416 saw the light of day.

I have hunted dangerous game all over Africa with my .458 Magnum. I have also used it as a back up for some time until it was replaced by my .470 double. I like the .458, granted the .458 Lott is what the .458 should have been, but I have seen several elephants, hippo, rhino, and buffalo put down with all brands of .458 rifles and ammo. I use a 480 grs monolithic and it exits out of my 19 " barreled BRNO at 2100 fps out of my 24 " FN the velocity is almost 2200 fps. I will not give the load or powder it is only safe in my guns. As to the .416 they are all great rounds I like like my .458 if I want a gun with a scope the I go with my .375 Blaser.

[ 05-29-2002, 01:49: Message edited by: alekojjensen ]

Mike
Winchester 510 Grn Soft Point
$44.99
One box only.
Thanks,
Mims

I'd pick the 416Rem over the 458Win as a more versatile and easier to shoot package. If I were a PH I might want a 458 Lott but the average visiting hunter is plenty well armed with a 416. It provides better penetration than a 458 and definitely does shoot much flatter when sighted in for typical DG hunting conditions.
It is also just a bad rumor that Remington has discontinued making brass for their 416. Just ain't so and I currently have more than one source for it. They may not make it every week like more popular casings, but they damned sure are still turning it out.

As an added comment...my Wnchester rep has a bitch. He says he can not get his dist., dealers to order enough 416 Rem Mags at the beginning of the year. He says they always run out and start calling him trying to find them. The distributor sell thru and then get stupid and fail to order additional pcs. the next year. Go figure.

Most PH's in South Africa use the 458 Lott, with good reasons.

In my opinion the 416 does not have the versatility of the 375 or the stopping capability of a properly loaded 458 WM.

I think any one shooting at dangerous game from more than 50 yards is just a shooter and not an hunter, and below 50 yards a flat trajectory it is not required at all.

If one want "a jack of all trade" calibre, should buy a 375 H&H, accepting is limitations.

From my experience people tend to shoot better with the 375 than with the 458 and even better with th 9,3.

Shot placement is far more important than kilojoules so my advice is to buy the bigger calibre that you can shoot accurately.

In addition you will find cheap 458 and 375 ammo and brass in every shop in Africa, but for the 416 you will have to order...and wait.

Well Andrea...I don't know about 416 Rem Mag in Phalaborwa but I bet you can find it in Pretoria at VLT Arms. They seemed to have about everything when I was in there two weeks ago.
The majority of the PH's in my camp in RSA had 416 Rem Mags and 9.3 x 62 for their big rifle. My PH was getting a Brno to make into a 450 Rigby.
Nothing wrong with the 458 except many of us still think the 416 is better...and that includes us that have the money to buy either. I have not killed one animal with a 458 but I sure have with a 416 Rem Mag and it was another 416 Mag backing me if I needed backing...I did not...nor did that one 350 Barnes X that took out my buffalo at 161 steps.
It will be interesting to see what sells best X years from now. Give the 416 Rem Mag the same amout of years that the 458 had in led time over the 416 and then we will know what is the better seller. The 458 had many years led time before the 416 RM came out and I like what Ray said...It was the only whore in camp at the time.
I don't think 416 RM ammo is as hard to find as you make out as I saw some in the gunshop in Vaalwater and that was not much of a gun shop!

HDS makes brass for the 416 and I just bought some Remmington Brass from Arms and Ammo. E-Mail Richard Blank at rblanc@swbell.net

Jim

Harry Im leaving for a little R+R in Alaska. I will be back in about 10 days. If you still have the ammo Ill take it. Ill call you when I get back to order that and the wipe out.

Has Remington really discontinued 416 brass? They still seem to be making 8MM Mag brass all these years. Is there a 416 Ultra on the horizion?

Harry,

If the 416 Remington is such a world beater, why don't CZ chamber it.

The Remington agents in Australia see it as discontinued and are all 375 Ultra.

I think the cartridge that will replace the 458 Win is the 458 Lott, not the 416 Remington.

The facts of life are that by far and away the majority of rifles in ALL calibers are not used exclusively for their intended use.

In 416, Hornady, Speer and Sierra simply don't make the bullets. Although I think that is a vicious circle situation.

Mike

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JBoutfishn:
I think that Mast technologies does runs of 416 Remingtom brass also.

470 Mbogo

You sight in dead-on at 50yds. (or so). With that zero, the .458/500s are 10" low at 200yds.

How much is (or so)?

Does it fit in with a double rifle.

Also, assuming that (or so) is all OK, how much past 200 yards would the 416 fall 10 inches.

Mike

Mike 375,
Maybe the guys in Aussie Land just don't want to bring it in. You make these claims that Speer and Hornady don't make the bullets...I find in my catalogs that there are Speer Grand Slams in both African Grand Slam and Grand Slam Tungsten and that Hornady offers the 400 grn round nose and the the 400 grn FMJ RN... #'s 4165 & 41677 in my Hornady catalog. These are .416 bullets.
I don't know (nor care) about the RUM cartridges and if or where they make it.
Now regarding CZ and why they don't offer the Rem Mag. I find it typical European thinking. I was the largest collector in the world of Sako rifles for many years. The factory had me to Finland twice as their guest. It took me years of beating on their heads to get them to chamber the Rem Mag. They offer and sell the caliber now but they waited until the bloom was well off the rose before offering anything bigger than 375 H&H.
Maybe CZ will wake up and offer the Rem mag someday as I know there are folks here in the USA that are hammering them to do that now.

Harry,

If we leave out the premium bullets we have (I think as doing this from memory)

416 Hornady

400 grain round nose

375 Hornady

220 flat point. I know it is a lever bullet but I would bet America is similar to Australia and most of them go through H&Hs

225 Spire
270 Round Nose
270 Spire
300 Round Nose
300 Spire boat tail

416 Sierra

None

375 Sierra

200 flat nose
250 baot tail
300 boat tail

416 Speer

350 Mag tip

375 Speer

235 grain
270 grain boat tail

I think John S propably hit the nail on the head when he said the 416 Remington was used mostly by hunters for large game whereas the 375 H&H, CZ 416 Rigby and 458 Win and Lott were used to play about with rocks and trees and of course deer, pigs kangaroos and turtles

I owned a Rem 700 416 several years ago and the caliber was very good. In fact it seemed to me to be more accurate over a wider range of loads and powders than the 375 or 458.

BUT, there was and is not a good Hornady type bullet selection.

The bottom line is that if a shooter wants a big bore to use aside from a few shots in Africa the 458 Win and Lott just give him so much more to play with.

Mike

To throw my two cents worth into the discussion;
I would have to agree with the .416 Remington as the better choice (although I, personally, would go with the Rigby). The .458WM all too often fails to live up to the advertised velocities and, I strongly suspect, that those shooters who are getting reasonable performance out of the .458WM are operating at very high pressures, in some cases too high.

In my experience, the number of .458WMs in use seem to be less and less. I shoot with the Big Game Rifle Club and there are many different big game rifles shot in that environment but I can't think of a single .458WM. I have hunted in Zimbabwe, on several occasions, but I have yet to see a .458WM in the field. My PH has one but doesn't have a good opinion of it and prefers to carry a .375H&H. In contrast, the number of .416s (Remington and Rigby) definitely are on the increase.

In my experience, there are plenty of good .416 projectiles on the market and those from Barnes and Woodleigh spring immediately to mind but I am sure that the Hornadys and Speers are good too (someone said, in an earlier discussion that Hornady and Speer don't make .416s - but they do!)

I personally use a .416 Rigby with a 1.5-5x scope in Warne QDs. I have this rifle set up to shoot Barnes 300x bullets through the scope and Woodleigh 400 grainers through the open sights - set up this way, a .416 makes (in my opinion) the perfect choice for a one-gun safari and you would be harder pressed to find a better setup.

Blue star has 416 Rem. brass and so does Midway.

I would think 100 rounds of brass for a .416 Rem would last the average hunter a life time of shooting...just think if it is annealed after 5 firings that is at least 1000 rounds down the barrel.
How many think most hunters shoot their .416s a thousand times?

I'm suprised no one has brought up the issue of shootability of the two rounds. I personally think the 40's (416's and 404's) w/ 400 gr bullets @ 2400 fps are at the recoil threshold of most shooters. That threshold is where one can fire shots from any field position, and ignore recoil. I believe most folks cannot ignore the recoil of the 500 gr bullets, and thus the shootability is decreased.

From my informal chats with folks at the range and gunstores, I believe the 416 is the preferred choice for big bears over the 375 in Alaska.

June 2002 American Rifleman had an article entitled "Big Bores of PHs". It was interesting to note that Harry Selby used a .416 Rigby until need for rebarrelling and went to a .458 Win. Mag. However, he uses compressed handloads and breaks down his unfired cartridges after each hunting season.

I shot a .416 Rem Mag on one gun safari in 2000 and enjoyed wonderful results. My 2 pesos....

Clay

Clay,
Here is the real story and I know both Harry and Mark personally....Harry Selby had little use for the 458, but during a period in his life the 458 round was easily obtainable, but when the 416 came available he promptly got rid of the 458...and went back to his beloved 416 Rigby....

BTW all those gun magazine rumors that Harry Selby has gone to the great beyond is pure horse hockey...He is alive and well and pretty darn healthy for his age which is about 80 plus as I recall. He still walks, talks, and tells some of the most interresting stories in the world. zHe and his son Mark are real gentlemen..I book hunts for Mark (Tanzania Game Trackers)and its a first class Safari Company and one of the oldest around.

The only place I have seen the 458 in abundance is in So. Africa and they use them because at one time the 458 was about it as to production...the 375 reigns as king with the PH crowd. It's still number 1 on the charts...but the 416 is making inroads and will someday take the title is my guess. It will do more as an all around cartridge than anything else, because it will shoot a heavier bullet as flat as the 375 and shoot a bigger bullet than the 375 at same velocity..a combo that is mighty hard to beat. I have a couple of 375's and a couple of 416's and they are both fine calibers as is the 9.3x62, another favorite of mine...

I just never felt comfortable with a 458 and any factory ammo and handloads have to be a bit warm to make the grade..I'm just not happy with that and why bother with a questionale caliber, it didn't get questionable by performing well...Its reputation as faulty from time to time was brought about by its lack of powder space..It should have been a 458 Lott all the time.

Some around here should probably read the handloading manuels and compare the 375 and 416 Rem with "all" bullet weights..then see which fits the all around caliber best...sans recoil, in which case the 375 takes the lead and if one is recoil conscious then the 9.3x62 is a wonderfull option.

I'm not about to tell anyone the 458 won't kill big game, it will and with aplomb, but if one is shopping for a big game rifle, then the 416 is the better choice IMO....

Mac,

Thanks for the clarification!

Dang it Mac,you beat me to it!

Well I sure am going to agree on one thing for sure. I have shot all those big calibers and if I have to shoot one all day and not worry about recoil it will be the 9.3 x 62. I continue to be amazed how little the cartridge beats me up. I am just mad it took me so damn long to discover it.
I own / shoot a beautiful Dakota Arms 416 Rem mag. I have shot a number of rounds through a 375 H&H and 458 Win Mag. but I can't say I really enjoyed either. I don't enjoy shooting my 416. The 9.3 is a bit stouter in the 'feel' dept. than my faitful 06 but I can say I enjoy pulling the trigger on it.
Now...the 458, 375 H&H and all the 416's will get the job done when push comes to shove and esp. if the bullet is in the right spot. I still stick to my guns and say the 416 is the better all around of the three.
I admire the 458 Lott but glad I don't have to shoot one. If you need a backup and will put it where it should go (the Lott) the game should be called in your favor and right now!