Save Valley Conservancy lion - Shooter or not?

18 July 2014, 02:44

FishN4Eyes

Save Valley Conservancy lion - Shooter or not? - Pics and Update added

Here are some recent pics from a trail camera from the Save Conservancy.

Curious about some thoughts about age and shootability.

Thanks!

Well the deed has been done and Thierry asked me to post some updated pics.

Here is a picture of the lion and a few of the skull and teeth. Please note this is the same lion from the trail cam pics previously posted.

I believe Thierry should have the lion aged soon but it'll be interesting to hear thoughts on the age before we know the factual info.

I'd hate like hell to be a PH having to make these decisions and I'd be damn happy I had one as good as Thierry Labat at making them.

Here you go:

18 July 2014, 02:54

dogcat

Of course!!!!

18 July 2014, 02:57

BRICKBURN

With no hesitation.

18 July 2014, 02:57

LionHunter

Impossible to age him from these pics. Worth getting a better look and building a blind might be necessary to get a good look and proper evaluation. Anybody saying they can age him from these pics is simply guessing.

18 July 2014, 03:00

BRICKBURN

quote:
Originally posted by LionHunter:
…... Anybody saying they can age him from these pics is simply guessing.

Exactly.

18 July 2014, 03:16

Aaron Neilson

Hard to say from the pics, but he sure looks like a nice lion!!!!

18 July 2014, 03:19

Frostbit

quote:
Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Hard to say from the pics, but he sure looks like a nice lion!!!!

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18 July 2014, 03:56

boarkiller

Bada bim
Bada boom

" Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins.
When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar.
Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan
PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move...

Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies...
Only fools hope to live forever
“ Hávamál”

18 July 2014, 04:07

Dahav

Wait a minute… BAM!

18 July 2014, 05:38

butchloc

i thot i saw a puddy cat

18 July 2014, 06:18

Michael Robinson

Beautiful lion, even in bad light. But then again, they are all beautiful.

As to age, I would have to see him in broad daylight.

But having killed a couple of lions, I have the luxury of being able to hold fire without second thoughts.

18 July 2014, 06:23

Safari2

It is in Save so likely it is a no shoot as quotas/ licenses have not yet been released in most areas.

18 July 2014, 08:37

FishN4Eyes

quote:
Originally posted by Safari2:
It is in Save so likely it is a no shoot as quotas/ licenses have not yet been released in most areas.

Good point.

This pic was taken in an area that has received their quota and hunting is on going.

It looks like a good lion to me but I'm certainly no expert.

Hopefully the gentleman who sent me the pics will enlighten us.

Thanks for the feedback, wish lion was in my future but I fear it isn't.

18 July 2014, 09:57

Buzz Charlton

Imagine turning down a lion like that because the light which was good enough to shoot was not good enough to "age" and then have him wonder off to never return on your 24 days $2000/day hunt that you had been saving all your life for!!! I would be a pissed client!

With more and more emphasis on the aging of cats in Zimbabwe we have learnt one thing for sure. That is it nearly impossible to age ACCURATELY in the field- yes you can tell a young lion from an mature lion but can any PH tell a 4 year old from a 5 ( which is important as with our newly appointed points system a 4 year old gives you negative points while a 5 gives you positive points and this determines your quota for the following year!

I think it is fair to say that the only accurate way to age a lion is by pulling a tooth and xraying it. This will be done in Zim BUT it will be done by Parks and that unfortunately does not fill me with alot of confidence. We like a few other operators are taking all the required pics, measurements and submitting teeth form all lion and leopard shot but I wonder if the Parks hunting areas are doing this- I doubt it.

In short though FishN4eyes- BANG- you will have an awesome trophy and worry if you want about the age later!

18 July 2014, 18:14

ravenr

BANG!!
BOOM!!
WHACK!!

18 July 2014, 18:28

Bama15

I agree with Buzz, we all want to do what is best for the lion population but we seemed to have gone off the deep end. Watching Ivan Carter look through a spotting scope for 30 min., waiting for the lion to yawn to try and keep from making a mistake and getting a fine by the gov. It has been shown that it is impossible to age a lion down to the EXACT year live. Then on the flip side, Dande area has to many lions and they are hammering the buffalo. When I was there in 2012, some herds didn't have any calves by Sept. Now you can't get a lioness tag. On that lion, if the PH would not let me shot him, I would be ready to shot the PH and mount him.

18 July 2014, 18:38

Caracal

Nice lion! I'd shoot it.

18 July 2014, 20:02

bwana cecil

Id probably have the "shakes" so bad I'd miss him anyway.

18 July 2014, 20:12

jkhunter

As this is a Lion in Zimbabwe, and you are looking for a 4 year+ Lion if I understand the min limit correct, then I would not even wait for PH to comment, its a good shooter, if I am correct you can spot a patch of hair on the one elbow, maybe just a shadow but this is a good mature Male,

If this was Tanzania then you would need to get him in the day light and flick a coin,

Its so bloody difficult to age that 5/6 year gap that I have had a good friend and PH in Tanzania send me photos of huge Males over the last 14 days in Tanzania asking for help in aging 2 big males,

This makes life tough for the guys on the ground and frustrating for the clients who just seem to be paying and not shooting a Lion

I will try up load some of those photos if any one interested???

JK

18 July 2014, 20:12

FishN4Eyes

quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Imagine turning down a lion like that because the light which was good enough to shoot was not good enough to "age" and then have him wonder off to never return on your 24 days $2000/day hunt that you had been saving all your life for!!! I would be a pissed client!

With more and more emphasis on the aging of cats in Zimbabwe we have learnt one thing for sure. That is it nearly impossible to age ACCURATELY in the field- yes you can tell a young lion from an mature lion but can any PH tell a 4 year old from a 5 ( which is important as with our newly appointed points system a 4 year old gives you negative points while a 5 gives you positive points and this determines your quota for the following year!

I think it is fair to say that the only accurate way to age a lion is by pulling a tooth and xraying it. This will be done in Zim BUT it will be done by Parks and that unfortunately does not fill me with alot of confidence. We like a few other operators are taking all the required pics, measurements and submitting teeth form all lion and leopard shot but I wonder if the Parks hunting areas are doing this- I doubt it.

In short though FishN4eyes- BANG- you will have an awesome trophy and worry if you want about the age later!

Buzz,

I like your answer best!!!

You guys are having a great season as usual, congrats!

Chris

18 July 2014, 20:41

Wowo

Agreed with Buzz.
I've heard x-raying of the tooth is not the magic bullet either... Certainly looks very promising!!
Leon

18 July 2014, 20:52

mboga biga bwana

quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Imagine turning down a lion like that because the light which was good enough to shoot was not good enough to "age" and then have him wonder off to never return on your 24 days $2000/day hunt that you had been saving all your life for!!! I would be a pissed client!

So true

18 July 2014, 23:41

505 gibbs

Wow, what a difference a couple of years make. Where is the LCTF when you need them.....

19 July 2014, 00:06

Frostbit

quote:
Originally posted by Randy W Martin:
Watching Ivan Carter look through a spotting scope for 30 min., waiting for the lion to yawn to try and keep from making a mistake and getting a fine by the gov.

Good on Ivan for being diligent.

I'll get flamed for this no doubt but I've spent way more time than that on a spotting scope trying to decide if a Ram is full curl.

It's part of being a responsible Conservationist.

19 July 2014, 01:05

LionHunter

Talk is cheap when you don't have your wallet on-line nor the threat of arrest, seizures and possible jail in an African prison. And that would be for both you AND your PH! Things change when you are on the ground with the rifle in your hands.

While the Lion does look good in the pics, as I said in my first reply, he cannot be aged beyond a guess from the info provided.

Some of us who have hunted Lion and have them on license again later this year, are still awaiting a possible ban from USF&W. Careless talk and speculation are not helpful in my opinion. But your mileage may vary, especially from your recliner. :roll eyes:

I would not shoot this Lion without further review.

19 July 2014, 01:29

GAHUNTER

quote:
Originally posted by butchloc:
i thot i saw a puddy cat

That cat looks a lot like the one you shot, PAC, in the Save a few years back.

19 July 2014, 01:44

Safari2

quote:
Originally posted by jkhunter:
As this is a Lion in Zimbabwe, and you are looking for a 4 year+ Lion if I understand the min limit correct, then I would not even wait for PH to comment, its a good shooter, if I am correct you can spot a patch of hair on the one elbow, maybe just a shadow but this is a good mature Male,

If this was Tanzania then you would need to get him in the day light and flick a coin,

Its so bloody difficult to age that 5/6 year gap that I have had a good friend and PH in Tanzania send me photos of huge Males over the last 14 days in Tanzania asking for help in aging 2 big males,

This makes life tough for the guys on the ground and frustrating for the clients who just seem to be paying and not shooting a Lion

I will try up load some of those photos if any one interested???

JK

Yes JK..Would love to see them.

19 July 2014, 17:07

Thierry Labat

quote:
Originally posted by mboga biga bwana:
quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Imagine turning down a lion like that because the light which was good enough to shoot was not good enough to "age" and then have him wonder off to never return on your 24 days $2000/day hunt that you had been saving all your life for!!! I would be a pissed client!

So true

Buzz has a very good point here. The finances involved in a lion hunt puts a lot of pressure on both PH and client, so I was thinking why not charge a buffalo rate for a lion hunter for 21 days and should the lion hunt be successful then up the lion trophy fee to make the difference. This way if " the right " lion doesn't show up it's not as much of a financial loss. I know some people are going to say, well that's hunting, which it is, but just saying!!!!

I'd like some thoughts on this! Would this be a more attractive way of selling a lion hunt or not?

P.S
The trail cam photos have been taken on the hunt I'm currently on. I'll keep those interested posted on the outcome. Thanks

19 July 2014, 17:25

Lhook7

Thierry,

I believe that pricing model was used by Andrew Baldry before Zambia was shut down.

This pricing model is much more attractive to me.

19 July 2014, 19:10

FishN4Eyes

quote:
Originally posted by Lhook7:
Thierry,

I believe that pricing model was used by Andrew Baldry before Zambia was shut down.

This pricing model is much more attractive to me.

+1.

19 July 2014, 20:07

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
With more and more emphasis on the aging of cats in Zimbabwe we have learnt one thing for sure. That is it nearly impossible to age ACCURATELY in the field- yes you can tell a young lion from an mature lion but can any PH tell a 4 year old from a 5 ( which is important as with our newly appointed points system a 4 year old gives you negative points while a 5 gives you positive points and this determines your quota for the following year!

I absolutely agree Buzz! I do not trust my aging of a lion, the PH has more experience in that arena, and if he says he is a shooter he's down for the count! If left up to me, the lion in the trail camera pictures would get a bullet very quickly. However if told by the PH that he is not sure then I'd pass!
......................................................................

19 July 2014, 20:24

MARK H. YOUNG

Thierry,

I think it would work fine as long as the increased money for payment if the lion was killed was held in escrow until the lion was or was not shot.

Mark

19 July 2014, 21:44

Jan Dumon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thierry Labat:
Buzz has a very good point here. The finances involved in a lion hunt puts a lot of pressure on both PH and client, so I was thinking why not charge a buffalo rate for a lion hunter for 21 days and should the lion hunt be successful then up the lion trophy fee to make the difference. This way if " the right " lion doesn't show up it's not as much of a financial loss. I know some people are going to say, well that's hunting, which it is, but just saying!!!!

I like your thinking Thierry. Makes sense.

19 July 2014, 22:47

Orvar

Bang!

You're killing me Thierry!

20 July 2014, 03:37

lavaca

I've made similar arrangements with a payment due upon the actual taking of a particular trophy (not the trophy fee). Great concept, but it too has its drawbacks, including whether the PH and client agree on whether to take a particular animal. (I recall one rather animated discussion in close proximity to three ele bulls). That's not the place to have that conversation.

Better approach is to hunt for the sake of hunting and not inject the finances into it. I realize that is easy for some; it's not all that easy for me, but I still think it's the best approach.

20 July 2014, 09:07

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Imagine turning down a lion like that because the light which was good enough to shoot was not good enough to "age" and then have him wonder off to never return on your 24 days $2000/day hunt that you had been saving all your life for!!! I would be a pissed client!

With more and more emphasis on the aging of cats in Zimbabwe we have learnt one thing for sure. That is it nearly impossible to age ACCURATELY in the field- yes you can tell a young lion from an mature lion but can any PH tell a 4 year old from a 5 ( which is important as with our newly appointed points system a 4 year old gives you negative points while a 5 gives you positive points and this determines your quota for the following year!

I think it is fair to say that the only accurate way to age a lion is by pulling a tooth and xraying it. This will be done in Zim BUT it will be done by Parks and that unfortunately does not fill me with alot of confidence. We like a few other operators are taking all the required pics, measurements and submitting teeth form all lion and leopard shot but I wonder if the Parks hunting areas are doing this- I doubt it.

In short though FishN4eyes- BANG- you will have an awesome trophy and worry if you want about the age later!

If you spent some time and effort trying to learn...you might change your mind.

When clients quit having an attitude such as you describe Buzz...things might start to turn back in a positive light for "hunters"...a group I am proud to be one of but which the world presently seems to hate...partially due to attitudes such as you describe.

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20 July 2014, 09:08

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by FishN4Eyes:
Here are some recent pics from a trail camera from the Save Conservancy.

Curious about some thoughts about age and shootability.

Thanks!

What the pics do tell you is that he is certainly worth sitting for and having another look see if the Gods allow.

20 July 2014, 09:11

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by MacD37:
quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
With more and more emphasis on the aging of cats in Zimbabwe we have learnt one thing for sure. That is it nearly impossible to age ACCURATELY in the field- yes you can tell a young lion from an mature lion but can any PH tell a 4 year old from a 5 ( which is important as with our newly appointed points system a 4 year old gives you negative points while a 5 gives you positive points and this determines your quota for the following year!

I absolutely agree Buzz! I do not trust my aging of a lion, the PH has more experience in that arena, and if he says he is a shooter he's down for the count! If left up to me, the lion in the trail camera pictures would get a bullet very quickly. However if told by the PH that he is not sure then I'd pass!
......................................................................

One of the problems is that most PH's don't have any formal training in aging lions.

20 July 2014, 09:15

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by Thierry Labat:
quote:
Originally posted by mboga biga bwana:
quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Imagine turning down a lion like that because the light which was good enough to shoot was not good enough to "age" and then have him wonder off to never return on your 24 days $2000/day hunt that you had been saving all your life for!!! I would be a pissed client!

So true

Buzz has a very good point here. The finances involved in a lion hunt puts a lot of pressure on both PH and client, so I was thinking why not charge a buffalo rate for a lion hunter for 21 days and should the lion hunt be successful then up the lion trophy fee to make the difference. This way if " the right " lion doesn't show up it's not as much of a financial loss. I know some people are going to say, well that's hunting, which it is, but just saying!!!!

I'd like some thoughts on this! Would this be a more attractive way of selling a lion hunt or not?

P.S
The trail cam photos have been taken on the hunt I'm currently on. I'll keep those interested posted on the outcome. Thanks

20 July 2014, 09:20

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Wow, what a difference a couple of years make. Where is the LCTF when you need them.....

Thanks to the LCTF...people ask these questions. Makes me at least feel like all the effort we spent was not totally for nought...depending on if Obama gets Sally to run the DOI (& thus the USF&W) like Eric runs the DOJ and Lois was running the IRS.