For those of you who have hunted them, how intelligent are elephants.

Well, they ain't dumb, but I never gave one a IQ test to see how they compare to Einstein.

We watched one elephant track us by scent like a hound dog. But it only did that for 25 yards or so.

Another elephant which was looking for us picked up a stick and threw it at a bush that it thought was us to see if we would move.

Another elephant chased the car. But dogs chase cars and dogs are not smart.

Another elephant tried to flank us - moving parallel and then cutting in.

I am not sure if that makes them smart or not.

I watched a special once on elephants. Let me relay some of that information

They are a matriarchical (right spelling) society

The groups that do better are the ones with the older female matriarch (and we know they live a long time). The reason these groups do better, have more young ones born, they say is that because when one group of elephants comes into contact with another they identify each other by there trumpet or whatever you want to call it. Now, if they don't recognize it then they get into a defensive position and spend less time doing their normal activities. The older females do better because an elephant can remember every trumpet it has ever heard. So they know if it is a friend or not.

Now I know it is all relative, we can't compare animals to us. But that seems pretty smart. And I don't know about dogs not being smart, you should see my australian shepherd, you can see the calculating he's doing in his eyes sometimes. My little mutt is pretty darn smart too.

Red

I read somewhere that they are smarter than Dolphins- and we have all seen how smart dolphins can be! Heck, the military has apparently even trained them for detecting underwater mines and remembering their locations.

TV will try to humanize about any animal, and particularly the elephant, stating and showing them grieve over the bones of a dead relitive..however a horse or cow will do the same thing, bones contain needed minerals and those are good sources, so much for Bambi tales.

Any animal will flank you to pick up your scent if the wind is wrong and they hear something, again so much for humanizing animals..

Survival is all animals have, and most can run only so far and then they forget why they ran, particularly Buffalo and bovine species..run like hell then stop and drop the head to graze.

.

I agree with Ray and Alf, and will go even one step further: As psychologists can not even agree what "intelligence" is when discussing humans, I think we should avoid the concept when discussing animals.

Regards,
Martin

I think we should avoid the concept when discussing most humans! (at least most of the ones in Kalifornia)

Red

To back Ray and all even further, my horse will carry deer and bear carcasses around and chew the bones. He does it to play and treats these things as toys. It certainly doesn't make him smart.

Animals as a rule regard you as one of their own (in the case of domestic or tame ones) and will treat you accordingly as to where you rate on the pecking order. Some may not know what you are and ignore you as a non threat (rarely). Some treat you as a food source and eat you. Or they look upon you as a predator and do their best to avoid you or protect themselves when forced.

One thing they NEVER do is think of us as "human" or people. That concept is in our minds only.

According to my dictionary the definition of intelligence is ; "the capacity for understanding; ability to perceive and comprehend meaning"

I've been lucky enough to be able to spend a lot of time watching specific Elephant bulls and herds of cows & calves and in my opinion they are considerably more intelligent than any other species I know of...... I'm not suggesting they could write a thesis on nuclear fisson, but (IMO) they are certainly capable of a degree of thought process easily sufficient to be able (at least) to communicate with each other and solve simple problems (this, has already been proven)....... I also believe they can recognise and to a degree relate with/to specific people.

An example of this is one the PHs who freelances for us and is a very good friend of mine. Jason used to be the Elephant monitoring officer on an Elephant Reserve in KZN for some years and in that time he grew sufficiently close to one of the bulls that on the occasions when this animal was sick Jason would go out into the bush and sleep beside the Elephant who would make no attempt to move away. That behaviour alone indicates to me a degree of intelligence.

Similar examples of this kind of behaviour can be found in the book Elephants for Africa by Randall Jay Moore.

I also believe that there is a huge amount more for us to learn about elephants and Elephant behaviour.......we are only now just scratching the surface of understanding such things as herd dynamics of this species.

Having said that, I'm not suggesting they're rocket scientists in baggy suits. As far as I'm concerned they're simply a very big mammal that has more going in their head on than other mammals.......but I do think it's important for us to try to have a basic understanding of the species and their inter-relationships etc before going out to hunt them. We also need to be careful not to confuse instinct with intelligence. The ability to detect - and avoid or confront a threat is instinct. The ability to solve problems etc is more likely to be intelligence.

A few books worth reading:-

Elephant Memories by Cynthia Moss
When Elephants Weep by Jeffrey Masson
The Hidden Voice of elephants by Katy Payne
Elephants for Africa by Randall Jay Moore

I´m with shakari on this one. Animals are probably more "intelligent" than we´ve so far known but they are still animals which for me spells protein.

On the same note: Which one of us would want to hunt chimps or gorillas? To intelligent or to human?

I had an elephant in one of my pre-calculus classes in college and just about the time I thought that elephants were pretty smart I discovered she was a female PETA member.

How is it we can, on one hand, feel pride in the taking of an animal, only to refer to it later as just a dumb beast, on the other? What of the countless times you have read such words as: "he was a smart one"; "I finally outwitted him"; " a sly old fox", "a cunning adversary"; "they don't get old by being stupid" ..... ?

Have you no hunting tale of a particularly clever game animal who, in the end, was bagged only via sheer effort on your part, his lone mistake or blind luck? Where then, for you, lies the challenge?

Have you not, in all your days, a single animal experience which gave you pause to reflect on the possibility of inate intelligence, beyond your own?

Iv'e seen and photographed Elephants pick up tree trunks and throw them at Lions threatening their young.

I know of 2 elephants that had been translocated 750 kms (ish)and then escape from their new home and walk 40 kms through game fences and over mountains and then split up to visit 2 seperate (other) translocated herds, spend a week visiting/mating and then walk back to where they split up, meet up with each other and then walk back to their new home again.......how did they know of the 2 other herds and how did they know when to meet up again for the walk home?

I know of 1 Bull that was killed by a train and his two buddies went back to the scene the next day, pushed numerous trees down across the railway tracks and then when the train was forced to stop persist in mock charging the said train. They had to be driven off with toyotas and rifle fire....then they returned the next day and did it all over again.

I've seen an Elephant avoid humans consistantly and yet be happy to walk right up to a person he was familiar with.

Then there's Randall Moore's famous Elephant Abu (now dead) who every time he saw a movie camera would immediatly charge it only to skid to a halt a foot or two before impact and then saunter away.

That's just a few examples I can think of off the top of my head.........they certainly ain't dumb and (my apologies in advance for getting onto my soapbox!) that's a large part of the reason I don't agree with all this sport hunting of cows.....tuskless or otherwise. I'm all for the sport hunting of bulls ........but rarely cows.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
...that's a large part of the reason I don't agree with all this sport hunting of cows.....tuskless or otherwise. I'm all for the sport hunting of bulls ........but rarely cows.

I don't understand your reasoning. Why the distinction between cows and bulls?

Once the Bulls are pushed out of the herd they become pretty independant and although they often form a loose association with other bulls they lose the vast majority of close relationships previously formed. Taking a mature bull elephant rarely affects other Elephants greatly.

However the taking of a cow out of a herd creates all kinds of problems with the herd dynamics. The higher ranked the cow taken the greater the upset. The relationships between cows & calves in the same herd and indeed in other herds etc are very complicated. A good book to read that explains relationships between family units, bond groups and clans etc is the one I previously mentioned by Cynthia Moss..........of course, it's all theory and no-one has actually asked the Elephants if it's all true......but my personal opinion is that she's got it about right. She is also probably one of the most experienced people alive when it comes to Elephant behaviour.

I just believe that anyone who just goes out there to shoot an Elephant cow just because it's the cheapest Elephant hunt available is doing hunting in general and himself in particular a great disservice at best......but that's just my personal opinion, and my opinion is worth no more than anyone else's.

There's nothing wrong with Elephant hunting and I like to see it encouraged (in fact, I'm all for it!) but I do believe that hunters should know something about their quarry before pulling the trigger.......Esp with regard to Mr Big Ears.

That said, I don't consider myself any kind of an Elephant expert.......I'm just an ordinary PH who happens to have a very keen interest in Elephants and am always happy to spend time watching them and trying to figure out how and why they do things.

From "The Wild Elephant" - John Emerson Tennent
Ceylon (1867):

All I know is that when I get up at 5:30 am to get ready for work the dogs are still sleeping next to my wife. it is hard to imagine that I am smarter than them

One of my favorite subjects- animal intelligence and animal versus human.
Excuse me while I ascend onto my soap box-undoubtedly to rile somebody up.
To begin with- I define the human as an animal species - probably because I didn't grow up and go to school in Arizona.
Second - all species perform best and seemingly perform miracolous deeds when in their environment - honed by the need for surviavl of the fittest - where intelligence counts a lot.
It is undisputed that some humans have the ability to reason,think,use tools,better their lot, so do some animals.Because "animals" cant read or write" they have a handicap of learning from past generations- dont really know weather that is a distinguishing factor to the human these days.
Memory: some or most humand seem to have it,I believe my horses used to have it,my dog certainly does.
In summary,to come down again,I believe the difference in intelligence between"animals" and humans is there- no question about it,but to believe that "aniamls" are dumb ,cannot reason,have no memory ,cant learn etc - at least to me proves that that "human" aint all that smart himself- excuse me here.Simply because that human couldnt detect or interpret animal behavior within its environment.

Instinct- is certainly some form of intelligence-inherited rather than learned.
We have very little and have to learn most.
Some actually do

Sheephunter, the problem with your reasoning is that you use such a broad intelligence-concept that it actually becomes meaningless as it can't be compared to other definitions. To include instincts (innate behaviour) or long-term memory makes your concept of intelligence so broad that it has very little to do with the use of "intelligence" in psychology - and as I said above, psychologists still can't agree on how to define it when it comes to humans. I don't think we should use the concept intelligence when discussing animals and only use it very carefully when discussing humans. Perhaps it is a meaningful concept when talking about IQ, but then it depends of a particular measure. Or you can perhaps talk about it when comparing individuals on other abilities (language intelligence, musical intelligence) if you accept certain definitions and constraints.

When discussing animals, I think we better just talk about abilities, and I don't think we should confuse abilities and intelligence.

Regards,
Martin

Some of the interesting actions of elephants have been explained when it was learned that they can communicate over very long distances using low frequency [below human hearing range].Whales do the same.

quote:

Originally posted by cewe:
On the same note: Which one of us would want to hunt chimps or gorillas? To intelligent or to human?

Having been up close (within touching distance) to both gorillas and chimps in the wild, I personally would say no, I wouldn't hunt them. And they are probably the only animals I wouldn't hunt that I can think of at the moment.

To me, there was something very differant in their eyes when they looked at us, that I haven't seen in any other animal besides humans. And if you think ele are intelligent, you should have a looks at the "great apes". In fact , chimps are so closely related to humans that they are the only other animals that have some of our real nasty sides; war between differant groups, where one group will intentionally (over long distances) seek out the other, attack (even using clubs) and then withdraw home. Chimps also take part in "gang rape" where several males will pin down a female and rape her one after the other against her will. I find this pretty amazing (and scary!). Then there are the use of utensils for eating termites and so on. Nope, no gorillas or chimps for me please!

There is no doubt animals possess "intelligence", where they are really one up on us is the fact their senses, over all, are much sharper than our own. That being vision, hearing and sense of smell.

I believe animals can "read", they certainly read body language very well. They also quickly learn to recognize objects and what they mean. For instance my horse knows what a whip is. I don't have to make any sound with it, just show it to him.

My dog knows when I make certain sounds (words) what they mean. Sit means SIT! My horse knows when I say back, he is to back up. I give much more credit to animals for understanding our language than we understand theirs. Again, I believe this is due to them having better senses over all.

Animals can be taught all sorts of tricks and commands to the ability their bodies will allow and what their instincts will allow.

They have feelings as well, they experiance joy and anger. Is that charging buffalo angry? You bet he is. Is your dog happy to see you? Yes, she is. They feel pain and also "care".

Often one hears that "culture" is what seperates us from other animals. That is probably a better way to distinguish ourselves from non-humans rather than how intelligent something is. We can teach certain birds to talk due to their physical structure. Yet you cannot teach a chimp to talk vocally.

Animals do have law and order and they are good about following the rules. They die if they don't. They live within a community of their herd in the case of herd aniamls and territories. They war over borders and over position in their community. Yes, they have politics too!

An interesting subject for sure, one I have made a life study of. I have seen some amazing things out there.

I have consistently refused to shoot baboons. They remind me too much of my work colleagues.

That is exactly why I love to shoot baboons.

quote:

Some of the interesting actions of elephants have been explained when it was learned that they can communicate over very long distances using low frequency [below human hearing range].

elephant news - link

from the website.

Generally, "elephants hear and respond to each other's loud calls from distances as great as four kilometres away"(Payne P.121). This under normal conditions would mean elephants can communicate and hear a message within a fifty+ square kilometres range. With David Larom and Michael Garstang´s work with long range calls and atmospheric conditions it was found that elephants have the capability of 9.8 kilometres away and within a 100 square kilometre range. At evenings in Africa the air temperature within 300 metres of the ground becomes inverted causing low-frequency sound to be reflected back to the ground instead of normally dissipating into the sky. Basically, around dusk elephants can communicate with each other over a much greater distance.

Katy Payne´s research has found that elephants do most of their calling in the late afternoon. This is a time when sound transmission is good but is not perfect. An easy explanation for not calling a lot during the night is obvious to anyone who has spent the night out in the African bush alone; the lions and many other predators are awake and hunting in the middle of the night and it would be foolish to draw unneeded attention to yourself. Thus, for its effectiveness wages against survival, elephants have found an ideal balance in maximizing this tool that they are so lucky to possess.

This structure allows for distress signal or other communication to be sent out and received by other elephants. This infrasound ability can be noticed by the sudden reaction of elephants to lift there head from drinking, bathing or eating, and act in a peculiar fashion. This may indicate that they have heard something that has warned them about some danger or could just be a female sending out estrus calls. Infrasound take social communication to new levels within the natural animal kingdom.

The evolutionary function for such communication is fairly obvious. Firstly, the fact that females are only really receptive to males just a few days every three to four years there is a small window within a big land to allow for the biggest bull to find a receptive mate. Given they can communicate over long distances, elephants gain a great evolutionary advantage in being able to communicate over great distances. The general trend applies across species including our own: the stronger the bull is that mates with the female, then the more likely the children are going to survive. Second, the ability to tighten the bond between groups allows for stronger social relationships, and reduces wasted energy in trying to keep together when moving over vast distances.


books on ele - link
Savanna Elephant Vocalization Project

Those that think "intelligence" and "animals" and/or "animals" and "humans" are mutually exclusive think too highly of themselves. "Intelligence" is often related to the capacity to learn and many animals can learn, have emotions, remember, and have expectations. That is why we must have respect for the things we hunt. Many people think that the only things to separate use from our fellow animals, and allowed use to develope into humans, is bi-pedalism, the opposable thumb, and the ability to control fire.

Just as surely as "animals" have intelligence, there is a gradient of intelligence - from fish to humans. And I base what I consider hunting on that range - it will take a lot for me to ever hunt elephants though I understand hunting helps to perpetuate their species by giving them value to their neighbor humans. I don't think I could ever hunt dolphins or whales, and I would never consider shooting an ape and probably never another primate. As Jerry Clower, the country comedian, once said "that monkey looks too much like folks". Lower level birds are another thing - more BBs please - but I don't think I'm going on a parrot hunt anytime soon.

I also think there is a range of intelligence in humans that is not always innate or genetic. Humans that have time to reflect, to play, and are in stimulating, learning environments seem to be more intelligent than those that have lived all their lives concerned with whether or not the next meal is coming. I think the capacity is there for most, it's just that their environment has limited them - and its not a racial thing. If you take a human child and drop it into the jungle by itself, and it survives, what you get out of the jungle in 20 years more closely resembles a chimpanzee than a child that has had the benefit of a private school somewhere with loving parents and teachers. And by the time that jungle child reaches its mid teens, the capacity to learn is limited and it will never be able to adapt to society as we know it.

Fish are extremely intelligent, they learn to swim before elephants do, therfore.......

Very interesting thread. Several have reasoned and then pointed out, basically, that if they thought they were "intelligent", they would not hunt them. Meantime, avid hunters, do not want to believe that they prey is "intelligent", for the reasons stated above! Non verbal communications, whether it be via sounds or body language seems to be a part of reproductive and survival skills.
Peter.

I have no problem believing SOME humans are dumber than animals. Since all are not should not the converse also be true?

We still have enough problems measuring intelligence among our own species to quantify the gap between species.

Understand I am not trying to humanize or animalize anything. Just that comparing it's intelligence to humans probably shouldn't be a factor in selecting a game species.

Relatively speaking elephants would probably rank high in intelligence when compared to other animals.

I think half of them are twice as smart as half the humans that hunt them.

Dave

All you need to know is that they are smart enough to kill you if your careless.

CHEERS!
465H&H

Elephants are the only animal I know of that can be vindictive. They are smart enough to formulate a plan to get you if they so desire. I've seen them push trees across a road and lay in wait to charge the truck when it stops to clear the roadblock.

Buffalo and bears will charge if hurt or threatened, but generally don't spend a lot of time thinking about how to mess with humans. Elephants sometimes seem to.

Some animals like turkey and deer are wary, but I don't consider them highly intelligent.

btt