I have been arranging hunting safaris to Africa for fourteen years and have taken several buffalo personally. I have a client that wants to hunt Cape Buffalo with a 45-70 TC handgun and would like my opinion.
I am not a handgun hunter and have always used a .416 Taylor. The client wants my honest opinion on using this handgun and I do not feel qualified to give him an answer. He has hunted exclusively with a handgun for years and assures me he is proficient with it. There seems to be a lot of expertise on this site so I thought I would throw the question out to you folks for some honest feedback. My concern is always for the safety of the client, the PH and a clean kill on any game we may pursue.

It's been done, and I know people who have done it (granted, they are very experienced handgunners).

If the client uses the correct bullets, can place his bullets to the satisfaction of the PH, and is willing to accept that the PH may have to sort out his mess, go ahead and take his deposit.

George

I took a Buff with a handgun in Moambique in 2005. I used a S&W 500 with 440gr at 60 yards in the swamp; hard cast flat nosed bullets. Ammo was loaded for me by GRIZZLY CARTRIDGES in Oregon.

JD Jones (SSK Industries) has done it and Larry Kelly from Magnaport has killed elephants with hard-cast 44 Mag rounds.

I would place a call to either of those guys and see what they say since they have empirical data from which to draw.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I took a Buff with a handgun in Moambique in 2005. I used a S&W 500 with 440gr. hard cast flat nosed bullets. Ammo was loaded for me by GRIZZLY CARTRIDGES in Oregon.

How does the .500 S&W in a revolver compare to a .45-70 in a BFR with equivalent barrel lengths? Is it more or less energy with similar bullet weights?

I thought I remember an article recently (Sports Afield??) where an asian woman ( i think she was from Gunsite) killed a buff with a handgun.

Holy Crap! you guys don't waste much time. I just posted this question five minutes ago!
Regarding ballistics on the 500 S&W, I do not know. I reload everything I shoot and have not shot factory ammo for several years. With that being said, I have not checked out the comparative ballistics except on the 45-70 rifle compared to 14 inch barrel handgun. My real concern is penetration and I do not know what three hundred feet per difference equates into regarding penetration.

I have some experience with hot loads for the 45-70 in a Guide Gun but none with the .500 S&W but I know the .500 is a hell for stout cartridge.

Tim--Penetration is the key. Your client needs to shoot a hard cast FN bullet weighing a minimum of 480 grains. 500 to 520 grains is even better. Velocity needs to be 1200fps. This is easily obtainable in the TC.

Go to the Big Bore forum and look on page 30 of Michael 458s' Terminal Bullet Performance thread on penetration tests. He tested some of my 45-70 loads with lead bullets and found they had well in excess of the minimum amount of penetration needed for complete penetration of Cape Buffalo.

Bullet weight is the key, and 480 grains IS the minimum in this application.

Can't be done. Has to be at least a 480-grain bullet at 2100. Don't you guys know this stuff?

I took my first cape buff with a handgun back in 1983 with a 45-70. Shot him with a 500 grain Hornady with max loads. As always, shot placement is paramount. Have taken other cape buff with 375 JDJ and 500 S&W. Best of luck--Mark Hampton

You might find some interesting information here - http://www.handloads.com/misc/...enetration.tests.asp

When I shot handgun silhouette I would have tried it. I had a Super 14 with a 44mag barrel that had been rechambered by Lou Schaeffer to his 444 Schaeffer Magnum. Basically a 444 Marlin case. 350gr T/C hard cast bullet at about that speed.

I would tell the client he needs to show me bolt gun reloading speed and a 4" 3-shot group at whatever he considers maximum distance. Then I would let him know that I intend to keep that Buffalo from leaving the scene.

Rich

BaxterB

You are correct about the Asian from Gunsite. Her name is Il Ling New. I might add her abilities with firearms are huge. As a long time instructor there she handles a handgun with the best of them.

Kirk

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
It's been done, and I know people who have done it (granted, they are very experienced handgunners).

If the client uses the correct bullets, can place his bullets to the satisfaction of the PH, and is willing to accept that the PH may have to sort out his mess, go ahead and take his deposit.

George

George summed it up pretty well, also sharpsguy has a few vaild points worth repeating: penetration is key, and use a heavy hard bullet.

Seems like Magnum Research BFR in 45 70 might be a better choice than a single shot pistol ...

http://www.magnumresearch.com/bfr_fact.asp

Single shot pistols have been getting the job done on DG for decades now. Get with the program. If you are proficient, and most serious hunters with SSP's are, (with the proper bullet and proper loading) they are as quick at reloading that SSP as anyone is with a bolt rifle...and probably more proficient with it than most bolt gun hunters are with rifles. However, with that being said, find out for yourself just how proficient he is AND what his load is. Actions speak louder than words.

I spoke with a hunter that has killed all kinds of game from all over the world, all of it with a TC handgun chambered in .375H&H. When I asked him what kind of velocity he got out of his hand gun, he stated he gets full rifle velocity out of it The only draw back was that ever couple hundred rounds or so he had to buy a new frame because it would stretch so much the action would fall open when it recoiled. Not the kind of loads I would shoot but this guy seams to be successful with it.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Lottfan:
I spoke with a hunter that has killed all kinds of game from all over the world, all of it with a TC handgun chambered in .375H&H. When I asked him what kind of velocity he got out of his hand gun, he stated he gets full rifle velocity out of it The only draw back was that ever couple hundred rounds or so he had to buy a new frame because it would stretch so much the action would fall open when it recoiled. Not the kind of loads I would shoot but this guy seams to be successful with it.

All I can think of to say is....."OUCH!!"

Well, obviously someone has to point out that if it is reasonable to hunt buffalo with a .45-70 handgun and the right bullet in the hands of a proficient hunter, then it is even more reasonable to do so with a Marlin rifle.

I never killed a cape buffalo but i guided some handgun hunters ,who cleanly took water buffalos with pistol,the last by guilleramestoy an AR member ,with a 500SW took an old cow with perfect one shot stop.

quote:

they are as quick at reloading that SSP as anyone is with a bolt rifle...

Not even close. I have hunted with a TC in 7 by 30 and 35 Rem and have shot it thousands of times. It is not as fast as my Ruger No 1 and I am proficient with both. I killed two buff in Tan with the No 1 and I am faster with my bolt gun by a wide margin than the Ruger. I thought I could be as fast with a single shot as a bolt gun, but there is no way.

It is your dollar; hunt with what you want, but be realistic about the limitations.

I've taken all seven of Africa's dangerous game species with a handgun, starting with a gorgeous Cape Buff in 2006, that now resides over the fireplace in my trophy room.

Each to his own, but I hunt exclusively with handguns and can't imagine making an exception for Africa.

That said, I've never been a fan of the 45-70 in a handgun because it's impossible to burn all of the powder in the short barrel. There are lots of wildcat chamberings available that replicate the ballistics of the most popular African dangerous game calibers such as the 375 H&H and 416 Rigby, but are optimized for the short barrel. J.D. Jones was at the party early and has some great chamberings, but my favorites are those developed by Gary Reeder -- the 378GNR and 416GNR particularly -- although the list of options developed by Gary is very long, on the order of 30 chamberings, many of them appropriate for Africa.

Bottom line -- go for it! But, you'll do better with a chambering optimized for handguns than with the 45-70.

quote:

Originally posted by tim416:
I have been arranging hunting safaris to Africa for fourteen years and have taken several buffalo personally. I have a client that wants to hunt Cape Buffalo with a 45-70 TC handgun and would like my opinion.
I am not a handgun hunter and have always used a .416 Taylor. The client wants my honest opinion on using this handgun and I do not feel qualified to give him an answer. He has hunted exclusively with a handgun for years and assures me he is proficient with it. There seems to be a lot of expertise on this site so I thought I would throw the question out to you folks for some honest feedback. My concern is always for the safety of the client, the PH and a clean kill on any game we may pursue.

Tim, this is nothing new cape buffalo have been killed with every illegal round in existance, and I'd say the 45-70 is one of the best that doesn't meet the energy requirememnts for Cape buffalo. I own a TC contender that was a super 14 barrel origenally chambered for 41 Rem mag that was re-chembered for the 411JDJ and had a perminately fixed muzzle brake installed to make the barrel long enough so it would be legal with a rifle stock. So I know why you want to use your handgun, and you can probably get a PH to allow it someplace. With a good back you will not be likely to fail collecting your Buff.

Given a good heavy rifle back up if things go south, it can definately be done. You could do it with a 22 hornet pistol if everything goes as planed, and with your big rifle close at hand in case you need to back your own shot.

However whether or not it is the best idea you've ever had is another matter all together!

In any event, good luck, amd place the shot where it will do the most good, and you'll be fine!

An attempt to take a Buffalo with a "less than suitable" cartridge can often lead to a disappointment of some sorts.

I have just returned from a month in Zimbabwe.
I have not posted often on AR and you folks were great about providing feedback to this posts original question so thought you all deserved feedback.
I accompanied the handgun hunter and wathced him take two buff successfully with his SSK 45-70. The first, being a good bull, was shot broadside on the shoulder at about 50 yards. The 500 grain Hornady solid passed straight through the buffalo. This buff required to be tracked and took several more shots to be put down. This buff reacted like several I have seen shot with a rifle. The handgun and hunter did their jobs well. The second buff was shot at just over a hundred yards with the bullet passing through the buffalo, taking out both lungs. This buff travelled fifty yards and dropped dead. No follow up was needed.
In summary from personal observation I feel the 45-70 handgun is sufficient for buff as long as the hunter is proficient, (Which ours was to say the least). Their was a lot of discussion regarding the hunter using solids and softpoints, he tried both. The softpoints at the lower velocity that the handgun generated caused the softpoint to act similar to solids as their was almost no expansion. If anyone wants more in depth detail please do not hesitate to contact me. I am too jet lagged to type further this morning.
Thanks again for all the original feedback on my question.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

they are as quick at reloading that SSP as anyone is with a bolt rifle...

Not even close. I have hunted with a TC in 7 by 30 and 35 Rem and have shot it thousands of times. It is not as fast as my Ruger No 1 and I am proficient with both. I killed two buff in Tan with the No 1 and I am faster with my bolt gun by a wide margin than the Ruger. I thought I could be as fast with a single shot as a bolt gun, but there is no way.

It is your dollar; hunt with what you want, but be realistic about the limitations.

Mike:

Where is Tan? - Have heard of Tanz, TZ but not Tan.

Tim416,

Welcome back, it was a pleasure sharing the camp with you and Mike. There is no doubt Mike can shoot the TC well.


fujotupu,

Deleted as not to screw up the thread.

quote:

fujotupu,

Tanzania. I have a very long report in the Hunting Reports forum, would you please proof read it for me.


Mike

Ouch!

Tim416:

Great post and set of replies. You asked a good question. Members provided honest information based upon their experiences, then you followed-up with the actual results of your experience. Thanks for the follow-up and thanks to everyone who gave such good replies. I found this to be a very helpful thread.

Friday,

I second that. Tim has quite of bit of experience in Africa and is a good guy. Hopefully he continues to participate and share his experience.

This is a picture of Mike's buffalo taken with his 45-70 TC.

Congratulations and well done! Would it be possible to get load information? Bullet and velocity, primarily.

Sharpsguy,

Mike the hunter does not post but he told us in camp he was getting around 13 to 1400 FPS with 500 grain DGS.

I believe the chamber was cut to allow the bullets to be seated a little long.

I am talking to Mike later this morning.
I will have him provide me with the recipe that he stuffs into his 45-70 TC.