Recently had a conversation with someone fortunate enough to book a lion hunt with one of the most prominent hunting companies in Tanzania. He was informed by the company during the process that if he shot a lion under 7 years old, he would be arrested upon re-entry into the United States for Lacey Act violations. To me, this presents a myriad of questions:

1) Why would anyone agree to sign up for a hunt under the above conditions?

2) If the above were true, how could a federal prosecutor prosecute someone on information that could not be 100% proven (a wild lions actual age)?

3) Why would an outfitter misrepresent what the law is in the country being hunted to the potential client (It is my understanding the age is actually 6yrs)?

4) Is the outfitter actually setting the scene for the hunter to not actually get the lion?

5) If the answer to the above is "yes", why? Does he sell more hunts than he has tags? Does he want to have a "low" success rate for other reasons (i.e. long term conservation of a limited resource, to give the appearance of being a conservationist, etc.)

6) Is this outfitter simply a charlatan?

Anyones thoughts?

Who is the outfitter?

This sounds as if there were some miss-understandings here. This happens all the time and that is why ten people can witness an event and give differing opinions as to what they saw and heard.

I suspect that something was said about making every effort to only shoot mature lions and maybe something more about potential problems that could possibly occur in trying to import an immature lion into the US.

If anyone had been arrested on Lacy Act violations I am pretty sure it would turn up here pretty quickly.I have not seen anything like that so far.

You know it is coming though.

The Lacey Act allows for the prosecution of someone for breaking a foreign country's law.

If it is against the law to shoot a 5 year old lion then you open youself up to the possibility of this.

Under those circumstances the risk may be too great to hunt lion in that country. When something that should be grey is judged black and white by some buerocrat in DC.

I HOPE it is a misunderstanding!


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If I was a client wanting to book a lion safari and I was presented with the information that Brad has provided I would not book the hunt. Whether all the details are right or wrong the safari operator is painting a picture of minimal chance of success and the possibility of criminal charges. No thanks to that one.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
If I was a client wanting to book a lion safari and I was presented with the information that Brad has provided I would not book the hunt. Whether all the details are right or wrong the safari operator is painting a picture of minimal chance of success and the possibility of criminal charges. No thanks to that one.

Mark

+1

+2

quote:

If I was a client wanting to book a lion safari and I was presented with the information that Brad has provided I would not book the hunt. Whether all the details are right or wrong the safari operator is painting a picture of minimal chance of success and the possibility of criminal charges. No thanks to that one.

Mark

Mark,
I agree with you at the above descriptions face value. However, the hunter (who will remain unnamed) who booked this hunt has a lifetime of experience hunting big game all over the world, is also a savvy business person having built a very profitable business. This fact would lead me to believe that the hunting company must have made him comfortable that they could still produce under the stated restrictions, which leads me to another question:

1) What is it in the hunting community that has allowed certain "high profile" hunting companies to become "above reproach"? I can think of several outfits who were the choice (primarily of the SCI crowd), who later were proven to be charlatans. Even after it was abundently clear what was going on, the "in" crowd just had to go hunting with them. It was almost as if the status of being able to say you hunted with outfitter X was more important than the value or quality of the hunt itself.

The operator should be able to produce a birth certificate for the Lion. We do it all the time.

"He would be" OR "He technically could be"?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
The operator should be able to produce a birth certificate for the Lion. We do it all the time.

Now that's funny.

Easy to prove his age. Put a headlock on him. Pull one of the canines have it aged, if old enough release and shoot, if not release and run like hell.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
The operator should be able to produce a birth certificate for the Lion. We do it all the time.

Yeah ! Right ! Man that swamp water is starting to get to you.

Not only no but HELL NO would I book that hunt.

The company are probably selling 21days fullbag hunts and not 21days lion hunts

I also think its strange to sell 15-20 lion/21days fullbag hunts and knowing before that the area produce 1-3 lions/year. Im sorry but im not willing to put down 100K for that. Lucky its alot of people with alot money that do it.

Sounds like they are trying to avoid arguements in the field.

Hunter...
"That is the only lion we have seen in 20 days, I am going to shoot it"
PH....
"no... it looks a bit young. Let's leave it"
Hunter...
"F-you"
PH...
"Shoot it and you might spend the next 10 years in prison when it gets reported"

They do not need to warn you about the Lacey act for you to be prosecuted under it. That is something that is just waiting for the right case to roll along to Wildlife. What should happen is some clarification about the lion age rules and what a hunters responsiblity is, or what Wildlife thinks they are. You can win your court case and still be broke afterwards.

What Mark said, but through a bullhorn!

In most US jurisdictions, anyone who aids in the comission of a crime is considered equally guilty.

Based on that, if the hunter is convicted, the PH and all of his hunting staff are subject to arrest and prosecution upon entry into the US.

quote:

The company are probably selling 21days fullbag hunts and not 21days lion hunts

That is probably correct, however, the primary target of the hunt is lion.

quote:

Who is the outfitter?

I would prefer not to say, as I have been informed that they are a member and post on this site. Perhaps they will recognize the situation and explain the other side of the story to us mere mortals.