OK BW Im still waiting for you to tell us "The Truth" about the Civil war. Lay it on us , or , Is this your way of wiggleing out of your statememnts.

Tell us , "The Truth".

Tell us how "5 Southern states produced 75% of the Federal Income just prior to the War". This is a very interesting statement when you consider that, THE ENTIRE value of all good , posessed and manufactured in the South, at the time the war started, was worth less then 1/4th of the value of good's in the Entire state of NewYork.

The sad fact was the South just has nothing for the Union to take, certainly not enough to start a war over.

I'll tell you why the South started the civil War. They didnt want to lose their way of life, or so they told themselves. and most of all , most of all, THE CIVIL WAR WAS FOUGHT OVER DIFFERING INTERPRETATION'S OF THE CONSTITUTION REGARDING THE RIGHTS OF INDIVIDUAL STATES TO SECEED FROM THE UNION.

It was also fought about the issue of whether or not non-White people were, in fact, People. In a sense of whether or not they had right's under the US Constitution, the same right's as whites.

It was, in a classic sense , "A House divided". Politicaly,Socially,culturally and Economically a House Divided. Why else would all those Americans take the field against their brother's and leave 620,000 behind them "Ashes to Ashes-Dust to Dust".

The South had a total population of 9 million people, 4 million of whom were black slaves. They were afraid, simply afraid of letting these people go free. The rich Southener's were afraid of loseing the means to reap the riches of the cotton farms. The Southener's who didnt own slaves simply did not want their way of life destroyed, or so they thought would happen. We will never know what would have happened if the War didnt start.

The American military, at the time hostility's started, had 17,000 soldier's in it, including Southener's. Not hardly a threat was it ?

The current trend of wanting re-write the history of the war includes a chapter regarding slavery. Hey "The system worked" right ?

A field slave had a 4 in 100 chance of living until he/she were 60yo. They had no rights of any kind, were bought and sold like cattle, and probably treated worse. And lived in shack's that were infested with disease's. They were born a slave and died one.

I dont think even Billy Klinton's spin artist's can put a good spin on slavery. I dont think you should even try, the the "Daddy" story was a winner, as was the story of you "balling your little fist's" to come to the aid of your "not so white" little friend".

So I'd hate to see this thread end before you could point me to where you came up with some of this stuff you printed out here. I'd really like to read it, or did you just , "look around and seeing no other realistic option" print it ? O h man, I just loved your summation of the beginnings, and morality of, slavery in America. "08-27-01-20:37 hours". With your Ok Im going to send that whole post to the Smithsonian to be saved forever.

But were not done yet BW. Lay these facts and figures on us, c'mon, Saeed wont mind............10

[This message has been edited by 10point (edited 09-05-2001).]

Sounds like hindsight self-righteousness...I would never have done that...poster boy for the liberal media.

10 pt.... You've said enough. Now i's time to get back to Forum Topics. Continue tnis on the Bower's Machine Gun Anything Goes Board.

Gee duck, I'll get that gun away from your head while forcing you to read this. I really dont think youv been around this forumn long enough to tell someone whether he can post or not.

OK, Im pulling the gun away now........10

10PT .. You can do or say what ever you want and Saeed doesn't mind. My suggestion was in the interest on civility. You are ranting about something that belongs in another place. OK for awhile but it gets tiresome as your arguments tske an ad hominem track.

10point,
I think Dr. Duc is right. This is going the "ad hominem" and "ad nauseum" route.
This is Dr. Berry wondering if you have had your lithium level checked lately? Don't be offended. Some of the greatest minds in history were likely bi-polar.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

Berry me boy, in between self administering your own "home fingernail colon smears" it might we wise if you , also, got it thru your beady little head that no-body is forceing you to click thru any of these post's that you arent involved in.

Did I hear "ouch"! hey werent you supposed to take that wristwatch off before giving yourself that test ?

OK, well the beady eyed little Doctor jumped in anyway and had his little say, got his little insult in, and now he's running thru the house looking for the cotton ball's to stop the bleeding.

Hey BlackWater I didnt mean to be an insulting know it all. But looking back I could have used some different, and more respectfull, words to say the same thing. Funny things those words, that really was my whole point.

For that I apologize sir, and I wish you well.......10

Apology accepted, 10-Point. I understand that sometimes we get on this electronic keyboard and, in effort to condense things, may not say things in ways that are errorproof when read. I've made an ass out of myself a time or two, so perhaps you're in
good company. Many times, we're all tired when we post here. I must confess that those comments about Dad, etc. would have given you a good opportunity to whip my butt had we been face to face.

As to your questions about the War, again, it was foolish, probably, of me to post such stuff here when "everybody knows" otherwise.
That's the nature of all wars, and civil wars in particular. If you doubt any of what I've referred to here (there's a lot more) then it's simply not going to be settled here - or by my own simple words or deeds. I believe there are more books written on the Civil War than almost any other subject. I've lost most of my books over the years - my mother in law actually BURNED some when I was in the Navy!!!! "Didn't think they were any good and they were taking up space in the attic!!!" Whew! That's another story, though. 9 big boxes of stuff!!!

I can do some searching for you and give you some recommended references if you want. It's been a long time since I've gone over this for references. Most people either know, suspect, or either aren't interested in this, so I'll have to find some specifics for you.

I don't know where you're from, or what you've read about the War, and the conditions, politics and economics that existed before, during and after the War. All I can do here, I think, is to point out that someone (Socrates???) once made the point that only good questions have good answers, and lead to true understanding.

With that in mind, I'd simply state that the best way to understand the true reasons for the war, it's beginning, its conduct, its end, and its aftermath - and even its continuing effect on ALL of us to this day - is to look at the economics that existed in the North vs. the South, the REAL cultures and ethos that existed PREDOMINANTLY (not just the plantations - a VERY small portion of the South's makeup!) - in both the North and the South, and you might even go back to the Revolution, when the fight to become a Union was viewed with MUCH leeriness by so many on BOTH sides.

I don't think an intelligent seeker of Truth can mistake the real reasons for the War. You could truly say that it may well have begun in 1787-89. States went into the Union
being promised things that were never to materialize in fact. As with ALL of politics that has EVER existed, the rule is POWER, and POWER is MONEY. Therefore, I invite your attention to the economics and politics of the respective times, in particular. Therein lies the pretty clear evidence of what happened, when and why.

This is NOT something you're going to sit down in an evening and learn, and it's also not something you can take anyone's word on - including MINE. It's something you've GOT to get from your own personal research, if you're to trust and believe it, and I WILL try to provide you with some good info if you'll email me offline. We've taken up enough of Saeed's space here, I think.

It really IS one of the most fascinating studies around, and that applies if you're a Yankee, or Rebel, or from another country.
The stories of courage, treachery, powermongering, political intrigue, the effects of communications (or lack thereof), and many, many facets of human endeavor will always be perhaps most poignantly displayed in the many, many facts, stories and happenings of that War.

Like all wars, the very best and the very worst humanity has to offer of itself, occurred in the making, execution and aftermath of the War. It occurred at the junction in time when technology exceeded the tactics of the day. In all, it is a vast and highly illustrative story of all that mankind is, good and bad, and how he behaves, collectively and individually, and is manipulated, or manipulates others, gains and executes power over others - or attempts to.

It's perhaps the most poignant story mankind has ever had to offer, and more illustrative of his basic inner and outer natures than any other story since we slimily crawled out of the ooze. I think it illustrates why you and I would have come to blows if we'd been face to face in this conversation.

I've been under the weather lately, and I'm still recuperating from some medical problems, but I think I can manage some time for this if you are really interested. An understanding of our Civil War will DEFINITELY lead one to understand better some of the more recalcitrant problems of our country faces today, too. War, power, politics and the law. If there's a more intriguing or illustrative study of man, I don't know what it would be. Email me and I'll put something together for you.

10point,
How long have you had this preoccupation with
"home fingernail colon smears"? ...oops, I just remembered: "Wrestle with a pig and all you get is dirty, and the pig loves it."
I am sorry for intruding in your misery. It is a free board, have at it. AMFYOYO.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

BW and 10P,
I would love to hear you thoughts on the darkest and most forgotten period of the American experience, Reconstruction. That exchange ought to be rich.

Blackwater my friend thank you for accepting my apologies, they were from the heart. I was just plain wrong in making some of the personal comments about you that I did. I also apologize to the forumn at large, except to Barry, who's just an asshole.

You should be proud of your father, and of the USMC, yaKnow guy's like him were hero's. I hope our generation can do 1/2 as well, tho I doubt it. Your's, and my, Dad's generation stood by right, good, and the American flag when many didnt. History proved them right, as it did my own sacrafices dureing the Cold War, of which Im proud.

I give thanks to the advice you give, your right, people should keep an open mind to history. They shouldnt get blinded by their own conviction's and passion's and personal history.

What does this have to with with an Africa forumn ? Not Much, except if it wasnt for the American right of freedom of speech, and other freedoms, there would be NO free world right now for us to be sitting here typeing away.

But , My Friend, I apologize for the personal comments I made but I dont apologize for my statements about the civil war, about slavery, or for my ugly recital of racial words, we all seem to dance around.

As a matter of fact Gen. R. Lee was against secession, as was Pres. Jeff Davis. Lee was about 2 step's above genius and he knew the South had no chance to prevail. A fine man, History would remember him better if he had taken the Generalship of the Armies of the North ; He was Abe's first choice. But so honorable a man could never take up arms against his fellow Virginians.

Every now and then when Im in the South, or in Southern IL. where I hunt often, I get a wiff of the pre-war South. Not so often anymore but on occasion........

It must have been a Grand place. To bad so many of the War-like , on both sides but Im sorry, mostly on the South, could find a way to settle things without brother killing brother.

The Civil War started for many reason's. Not just slavery, in fact slavery was the last reason at the beginning. Yes the South felt isolated by their rich Northern brother's, but their way of life south of the Line also stifled personal industry. Taxation was an issue, Yes the South felt they were giving more then they were getting. Most of all the South felt their way of life slipping away and they thought the US Constitution gave them the right to seceed legaly.

But in the end that War defined who we are, what we stand for, and where we were going to head, damn fascinating subject.

So I will end this by saying to all, except Barry, "I apologize for my comments", especially to BlackWater"

These forumns are funny things BW, sometimes the best of friends are made after an ugly spat. I hope it is so with us my friend........to all good hunting...........10

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[This message has been edited by 10point (edited 09-11-2001).]