One of my childhood heroes Elgin Gates, I read all I could about him & his hunts when I was younger .

Now Ive been to a lot of the places & know a lot more about trophy animals, where there are & size of them & just recently rereading some of those STORIES it came to me he may well have been full of it & worse a cheater ?

Any one know more about his hunting stories ?

Specifically what stories don't you think are true? Or are you just trolling?

I have read his books long before I went hunting.

But, I have heard rumors that there was some hanky panky in some if the trophies he claimed to have shot.

No idea how true that is.

I might read his books again now I have my own, quite extensive hunting experience.

maybe the same place geographically, but it was a different time and a different place when he went.

I'm not saying there wasn't some self promotion going on though.
that seems to be a common theme amongst hunters , writers, and gun maker types from that same time frame.
if they couldn't do that they wouldn't have got enough print to be successful as businessmen.

He has a bunch of heads listed in the BnC record book. I just read thru a copy of it last week or so.
Don't recall reading his writings though, may have when I was a kid.

George

As to Gates cheating or such, same stuff has been spread around about O'Connor. Think a lot of it sour grapes, and the views of people who would themselves do something underhanded and crooked. I don't know what if any awards he got with SCI, but he was awarded the Weatherby trophy and it not given to scofflaws. I didn't believe the stories about JOC either (he would get tags in his wifes name then shoot extras, etc). I don't believe it of either of them.

Well the Black Maned Lions of Korannaland is one off the top of my head & 56in Sable from Mozambique, even that photo looks dodgy, like a mount hidden in the grass ?

This was my hero but I'm rethinking it now maybe ?

Is there a story about him braining an elephant with softs from a .300 Weatherby? I’ve wondered about that.

I can understand where all the emphasis on the word "trophy" came from when I think of what hunting was like in those days.There was so much quality game around that hunters naturally wanted to take the highest scoring animals.Hunting was also much more acceptable too.It could be that Elgin was not a saint.I would not know.

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:
Is there a story about him braining an elephant with softs from a .300 Weatherby? I’ve wondered about that.

No sir, it was what eventually became the 30/378 Weatherby (in 1959) and yes there have been rumors, like the 60" kudu for example. If you look at the picture where he is holding the horns, the "story" goes he used to horns to make it bigger.

Court adjourned
Elgin is dead, witnesses are most likely all dead
Enjoy the books

I have heard from quite a few people that Elgin was thought to be full of POETIC LICENSE.

I have his book, it is interesting.

Weren't some of his trophies pulled from the Rowland Ward books because of dubious authenticity? Seems like I read that somewhere but don't know if it true.

This suddenly makes him more interesting!

quote:

Originally posted by tysue:
As to Gates cheating or such, same stuff has been spread around about O'Connor. Think a lot of it sour grapes, and the views of people who would themselves do something underhanded and crooked. I don't know what if any awards he got with SCI, but he was awarded the Weatherby trophy and it not given to scofflaws. I didn't believe the stories about JOC either (he would get tags in his wifes name then shoot extras, etc). I don't believe it of either of them.

Jack was one of hero’s in those days.

I built a 270 Ackley because of him, and then hunted Africa with it many times shooting hundreds of plains game.

But, AFRICAN PHs apparently did not get on well with him - I heard this through 3 different PHs.

May be that is why he was not too enamoured of hunting in Africa.

Writers of those days were all full of it.

Non of them would have lasted on an open forum like AR today.

I read everything I could find in those days by all of them, O’Connor, Keith, Milek and so on.

Now, I can find holes in what they had written as fact in magazines you could drive dozens of trucks through.

But, as mentioned above.

It was a different culture, and everyone was at it.

I enjoyed all their writings.

On another note, many old African PHs who wrote books were no different either.

Well said Saeed
Old Elmer Keith, I always thought of him as kinda prick, but loved his story about hunting with Zane Grey and after Grey stiffed him on money, he was gonna shoot him next time he saw him
That one way as funny
In the end , read his books and they were all well written and I believe Keith was genuine character

I have read all of Elgin Gates books along with independent accounts of his exploits. He was a unique guy for sure - speed boat racing champion, pistol shooting champion - above anything anyone else has done.

His books are very well written. Almost too well written as they come across as stilted or very crafted. But, he accomplished some of the most amazing feats in hunting.

The write up on him in Robert Anderson's books on sheep hunting are breath taking. Gates likely shot 11 Marco Polo rams in one outing and brought the heads back. Lots of evidence. He did all of this when no one hunted Asia like he did.

He and Bob Lee along with the Kleinberger's were amazing. I just wish I had the time and money to hunt like they did.

Was Gates "full of it"? No. Not at all. He was an adventurer and an over the top achiever.

I would like to have met the guy.

I spent a day driving around Tucson with Gates many years ago when I was the Tucson Daily Citizen's outdoor editor. Friends and I had been competing in the metalicas siluetas matches in Sonora and a feature article I'd written had been picked up by the Associated Press and published across the country.

Gates wanted to know more about the sport and pumped me and a couple of shooters I introduced him to for details.

Next thing I knew he had written a small book and developed a silhouette shooting game for handgunners allegedly based on what he had learned while competing with rifles in Mexico.

I knew the officers of most of the shooting clubs in Sonora and northern Chihuahua in those days, and can tell you that if he "competed," it was a one- or two-time thing.

Bill Quimby

Oh and he also was a trap shooting champion and with a Rem 1100 no less. There is a really good article in Sports Illustrated about he and his son trap shooting.

There are pictures on the net of he and Roy Rogers in Needles with stars from the early 50's.

No matter his failings, he must have been a real character. Would have really liked to have met him.

i spoke a few times with elgin and can see no reason to question him - especially now - he was always straight with me RIP
I also hunted with one of jacks guides. On his last hunt or 2 he sat in camp drinking and had thee guide shoot his sheep, but that was his last years RIP

Well, finally maybe Capstick will get a little rest now!

Revisionism is all the rage now, maybe Elgin was hunting with and ghost writer on George and Jacques Herter's "The Truth About Hunting in Today's Africa and How To Go On Safari for $690.00?

I can't wait for Leon Dicaprio's version of the founding of America. Will Daniel Boone beat his wife? Was he a transvestite?

Gates shot his 180 lb elephant less than 50 years ago. A time when some of us had, or could have hunted Africa, and possibly the same elephant. That in and of itself is pretty amazing.

Through his eyes and his words, Gates took me to a few places I had been and many places I had never been and never will be. I enjoyed his writing and his photos. For these things, I will always be grateful.

It's all about context.

Those guys did shit and wrote shit, in those days--because they could. They had the money and the time. The locals who facilitated them were happy to get paid and knew to keep their mouths shut. There was no oversight, nobody really cared, and there was no Internet. Editors asked few questions.

The public who consumed the stories and the books, and slobbered over the photos, simply didn't know any better. Moreover, they had no reason, nor the means, to question what they read and saw.

OConnor probably didn't get on with African PH's because they knew far more about hunting and the behavior of game than he ever would.

Keith talked his shit because it was common for guys like him to do so, and no one had any interest in holding them accountable. In today's world, he'd have had his ass kicked sideways, figuratively, and would never get published. And as far as his writing goes, it has been said by many industry insiders over the years that he was fundamentally illiterate. His original copy had to be rewritten, almost from scratch.

America was too busy making a living in those days. Most guys were lucky to own more than one quality hunting rifle. Gates, Keith, OConnor, et, al, offered an escape. Very, very few American hunters would ever have the opportunity to experience anything like what they saw in magazines and books.

Did these guys pull some BS? Of course they did. It's all about context.

Best O’Connor story

A couple of guys were waiting to fly into
sheep camp in Alaska and O’Connor had flown out the evening before.
They met at breakfast and enjoyed the conversation with him. When O’Connor was done he promptly got up and
said “Anyone that has breakfast with Jack O’Connor pays the bill” and left.

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
Best O’Connor story

A couple of guys were waiting to fly into
sheep camp in Alaska and O’Connor had flown out the evening before.
They met at breakfast and enjoyed the conversation with him. When O’Connor was done he promptly got up and
said “Anyone that has breakfast with Jack O’Connor pays the bill” and left.

Might be true.

I understand he did not pay for his elephant either!

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
Best O’Connor story

A couple of guys were waiting to fly into
sheep camp in Alaska and O’Connor had flown out the evening before.
They met at breakfast and enjoyed the conversation with him. When O’Connor was done he promptly got up and
said “Anyone that has breakfast with Jack O’Connor pays the bill” and left.

And, where would we be without all of them? Characters yes, but they invited us to places that moved us to want to go and experience ourselves. I seriously doubt that we would all be having this conversation and that AR would even exist to the extent that it does, without their influence in the hunting lives of many of us.

quote:

Originally posted by Minkman:
Revisionism is all the rage now, maybe Elgin was hunting with and ghost writer on George and Jacques Herter's "The Truth About Hunting in Today's Africa and How To Go On Safari for $690.00?

I can't wait for Leon Dicaprio's version of the founding of America. Will Daniel Boone beat his wife? Was he a transvestite?

This is funny, because it could happen in this age !

Yes I think Mr Gates was still awesome & human, should of said nothing but it just struck me reading some old Guns Ammo magazines the story's were off !

Plus I was drinking !

Sorry !

quote:

Characters yes,

But aren't all of us characters in our own right?

How many times do ANY OF US have an audience on our hunts?

Why can't people simply take things with a grain of salt and stop trying to put others down?

I really enjoyed reading Elgin Gates articles over the years and have read and still have his book on African hunting ...

On my first safari back in 1977 the PH was highly sceptical of the man's claims ... including many world records. He thought it most improbable that one man could have so many #1's.

The magazine article way back when on his ground breaking hunt in Mozambique where he shot the world record kudu, sable, and nyala was mentioned. Certainly the kudu was discredited .. not sure of the others.

I was also told that many of the staff were armed and told to shoot game and bring it in ... Sounds unlikely but what do I know ??

About the 180 pounder someone mentioned .. I have seen the photo of a bunch of natives carrying it across a river. Absolutely snowy ivory ... they had it cleaned until it shone ...

I do not, for a second, believe he shot a 180 pounder.

Another photo of him standing beside a black leopard skin and telling of how he shot it. I have photos of me eating breakfast beside jaguar skins in both Bolivia and Northern Uruguay ...

But I was just eating breakfast beside pelts of long ago shot cats ...

Here was a man with lots of money and time to hunt game that people today can only fantasize about .. that era is gone forever .. But that was not enough ... In my opinion he had to be the greatest trophy hunter with the most and the biggest animals ... And was not always careful with the truth ..

Love O’Connor

One more I believe to be true.

Was hunting antelope in E. Wyoming back in the 80’s. Brought up the name O’Connor and the old guide smirked. O’Connor had hunted the neighboring ranch. First morning out they spotted a good antelope and Jack shot it from the vehicle. By the time the article came out they had crawled all over Eastern Wyoming and finally killed the buck with a great final stalk and long shot.

Gates was a great writer, that much I can say for sure.

I loved his magazine article about being chased up a tree by a Cape buffalo, and being able to shoot his way down only by virtue of his Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver and armor piercing bullets.

I believed that story. Gates built up a lot of credibility with me and many others over the years by going to wild places, often where few men had gone before, and bringing back the biggest and baddest of big game trophies.

But did all of it really happen?

Only he and his maker know for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Characters yes,

But aren't all of us characters in our own right?

How many times do ANY OF US have an audience on our hunts?

Why can't people simply take things with a grain of salt and stop trying to put others down?

Only they know the answer Crazy.

"Morality is simply the attitude we adopt towards people we personally dislike"

OW

Again, I think some of the stories about Jack O'Connor and Gates and Keith and others are second, third and fourth hand made up stories. I spent time with Bradford O'Connor and found him to be interesting and completely overshadowed by his famous father. However, he was committed, as were others with him, to preserving the legacy of his dad.

I have no idea about the truth but suspect that most of what they say they did, they actually did.

I just finished watching 8 hours of old Fred Bear hunts and stories. Fascinating and entertaining - all from 1950's and 1960's. Most of the filmed action was staged, much like Robert Ruark's and Capstick's movies - however it was good and fun to watch.

Back to the truth - who knows for sure?
Capstick was a great story teller and writer, Ruark was as well. O'Connor had a lot of pictures and witnesses as did Keith and others. Gates and Mellon were loners but sure accomplished a lot.

I would be hesitant to take the word of someone that heard from a friend of his third cousin twice removed.

I was invited to dinner a couple of years ago with 2 very experienced hunters. After dinner they showed me old home movies of some hunts they have taken. One was hunting tigers off of elephants in India. Elgin was with them. I asked if his stories were factual. They both said Elgin did not need to lie. They obviously had tremendous respect for him. I spent a week with Jose Simoes' son in Zambia. We talked at length of his father's career and,in particular, the 1959 safari with Gates. He had nothing but good to say of Gates and I never directly asked about the legitimacy of the trophies. Gates' two books are about my favorites. His epic tale of his hunt for Marco Polo sheep titled, "The Rams of Shangri- La", is hands down my favorite story of a lifetime of reading.

quote:

Originally posted by scruffy:
I really enjoyed reading Elgin Gates articles over the years and have read and still have his book on African hunting ...

On my first safari back in 1977 the PH was highly sceptical of the man's claims ... including many world records. He thought it most improbable that one man could have so many #1's.

The magazine article way back when on his ground breaking hunt in Mozambique where he shot the world record kudu, sable, and nyala was mentioned. Certainly the kudu was discredited .. not sure of the others.

I was also told that many of the staff were armed and told to shoot game and bring it in ... Sounds unlikely but what do I know ??

About the 180 pounder someone mentioned .. I have seen the photo of a bunch of natives carrying it across a river. Absolutely snowy ivory ... they had it cleaned until it shone ... I do not, for a second, believe he shot a 180 pounder.


Another photo of him standing beside a black leopard skin and telling of how he shot it. I have photos of me eating breakfast beside jaguar skins in both Bolivia and Northern Uruguay ...

But I was just eating breakfast beside pelts of long ago shot cats ...

Here was a man with lots of money and time to hunt game that people today can only fantasize about .. that era is gone forever .. But that was not enough ... In my opinion he had to be the greatest trophy hunter with the most and the biggest animals ... And was not always careful with the truth ..

Not sure about the other things you said, but I just looked in Gate's book at the 180 lb ivory. He is standing with it and it has not been cleaned. It is no where near snowy white. The ivory is also in Rowland Ward, showing it as Gates. I'm not sure what Rowland Ward's requirements were at the time Gate's shot that bull, other than you had to have an approved measure. I know there weren't very many of them in Tanzania at the time. I imagine there were even fewer in Uganda. At the time, the two main measurers for Rowland Ward in East Africa were the Rowland Ward Taxidermy and Zimmerman's Taxidermy, both in Nairobi.

Could Gates have pulled off a fraud. That's always a possibility but Blacklaws would have been complicit. The more involved, the harder to perpetrate a lie.

Thank God almighty for the internet and AR where no one exaggerates their tales of daring and trophies harvested. Now, whose reputation can we besmirch next with innuendo and fourth hand rumors... all to make us feel much more important than we really are.

Regarding the story about O’Connor and breakfast...cute story, but O’Connor never hunted in Alaska, for sheep or anything else. Most of these stories about long dead writers are just that-stories. Apocryphal stories.