Savage Safari Express as a DGR?

22 October 2001, 04:44

<ronl>

I am looking to buy a DGR off the shelf which with a modest amount of tinkering would be suitable for my first buffalo hunt in August of 2002. My gunsmith is complaining about the recent quality of Winchester Model 70 Safari Express rifles. He tells me that the magazine box is designed to narrow so that the rounds have trouble feeding. He also feels that the bolt handle is brazed to the bolt making it weaker. Any custom work that I need done will take about a year out of his shop so i am running out of time.

He recomends that I look at the Savage Safari Express Model 116SE or buy a Win Model 70 Pre-64.

Is the quality of current Winchester Model 70's declining?

What opinions do you gentlemen have about the Savage?

How about recomendations of other gunsmiths who might be willing to work with me on this?
I live in western North Carolina not too far from Atlanta or Charlotte.

Thanks.

Ron L

22 October 2001, 05:55

GeorgeS

Ron,
I like Savage rifles a lot; they are very accurate right out of the box, and they provide a lot of value for the money. My wife and I own a few Savages.
That said, four of my last six rifle purchases have been Winchester M-70s with the pre-'64 style action.
All have been solid performers, and accurate rifles. I have trusted my M-70 .375H&H for two leopards and a Cape buffalo; in nine days, I will hunt buffalo in Tanzania with my M-70 .470 Capstick, and the .375 will be my light rifle.

The Savage 116SE does not have true controlled-round feed, and I don't know any hunters who have used it in Africa. I just don't have enough information on its reliability to recommend it to you.

There have been reports on various boards of problems with workmanship and defects with the Model 70; however, you have enough time to get them all straightened out before your hunt.

As for good gunsmiths, there are quite a few on this forum who know how to make an M-70 work properly.

George

------------------
Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

22 October 2001, 10:42

Nitro Express

Ron:

There is a gunsmith here in Atlanta who has had a great deal of experience building DGRs, especially 458 Lotts and 416 Rigbys.

I would think he'd look at working on any project you have in mind, assuming he feels it's in your best interest.

He is reasonably priced and his turn-around time is better than average. He has done outstanding work for me and is the only person I'd use for DGR projects.

If you are interested in more information, please e-mail me.

22 October 2001, 13:13

<David>

I just purchased a M70 Safari Express in 416 Rem Mag. For the most part, the rifle was fine. The problems I had were trigger pull in excess of 8 lbs - this was easily corrected for $35 by my local smith and Winchester used some crap that has the consistancy of rubber cement or silicone RTV to bed the action in the stock, and since it is a relatively heavy recoiling rifle, they put a second recoil lug on the barrel just below the front sight with more of this spongy bedding material. The worst of it all was the second recoil lug. It was welded to the barrel with the load bearing rear surface angled at about a 20 degrees of from the way it should have been. This caused the rifle to shoot about 15" to the right when the bore is aligned with the scope and iron sights. A call to Winchester resulting in "so what, we'll look at it but it will be 6 to 9 months before you get it back" so I bit the bullet and had my smith pillar bed the rifle. It now shoots dead on and three different bullets all group at barely 1" with all three groups landing in a 3" circle at 100yds.

Basically, I am now happy with the rifle, but I wish Winchester would spend the few extra minutes it take to do it right the first time and use some real bedding material instead of the junk they use.

22 October 2001, 13:15

<David>

Just a correction to my previous post. The second recoil lug is below the rear sight, not the front.

22 October 2001, 14:01

boltman

I've not looked at the savage CRF system but from the pictures I've seen it doesn't look like a true CRF like the M70. The quality of the M70 is hit and miss from my experience. The design of the M70 is first rate and things usually get put together correctly, but some stupid crap gets past their comotose QC inspectors now and then. Your gunsmith's critism of the bolt handle isn't warranted. True, it's brazed on but it's also splined which makes it very strong. I just haven't heard of any problems with it. The feeding pops up now and then but is a function of improper assembly not design. I'd opt for the M70 and send it to a gunsmith that will do the work in a reasonable amount of time. One gunsmith that I've heard great things about regarding M70 work is Mark Penrod in Indiana(I believe). He's supposed to be one of the best on M70's and I hear he's quick and reasonable priced.

22 October 2001, 15:32

Ku-dude

Ron,
I have what I believe is the only surviving Savage in 425 Express. I would make the following observations about the Savage.

First; it loads from a straight magazine and is very reliable in its feeding.

Second; the stock and fittings are appropriate to a African dangerous game rifle.

Third; it has an innovative muzzle brake that turns on and off merely by twisting it. It works too, which is good because the 425 Express duplicates 404 Jeffrey ballistics.

Fourth; it is accurate for a big bore rifle.

Fifth, I have shot mine a good bit, and have never had a problem with feeding, extraction, or ejection.

Sixth; it is not a pretty rifle, ie, the action is really unattractive.

The only dangerous game that I have taken was Cape Buffalo, and I used a pre-64 Model 70 in .375HH for that. However, when the moment of truth came, it was at about 20 yards. I concluded a .375HH, which up to that moment I considered a cannon, was not enough gun. I bought mine afterward while I was having a 416/404 made for me.

I understand that the current Savage only comes in .458. I don't know if it is made in .375HH, which is a longer cartridge. I would not disparage the Savage. I think that it will get the job done. I think that you'd enjoy the M70 more as a firearm.

Ku-dude

22 October 2001, 15:34

Atkinson

I wouldn't choose the Savage as a DGR....I think he gave you the best advise to buy a M-70 in 375 H&H, and if thats not enough have it rebarreled to a 416 Rem.....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

22 October 2001, 16:11

<allen day>

Well, it's hard for me to believe that someone with the wherewithal to hunt lions, buff, leopards, etc., would choose any version of the Savage 110 as their rifle-of-choice. I mean, hold the phone......! We're talking about some serious money invested and a potentially life-threatening hunt hanging in the balance, and a Savage bolt-gun is the best we can come up with????

The whole rational is like buying a new house for hard-earn cash, but then not bothering to spend the money for an insurance policy for same. Sort of an exercise in reverse-economy if you'd ask me.......

22 October 2001, 16:29

Mike375

Ron,

Your gunsmith is right about the new magazine boxes.

We have some problem ones in Australia. supposed to be a new system Winchester uses that allows both the 375 and 416 Rem to work and in particular the 416 Rem when used with very blunt bullets such as the Hornady 400 grainer..

In fact I was about to buy a blued/walnut 375 that was used for a recent gun test in one of our magazines. It would jam virtually everytime on the second round. Luckily for me, the conditions under which we can buy field tested rifles is that we can send them back to Winchester Australia if we don't like the rifle. By the way the feeding problem was not mentioned in the article. How strange that is

You can pick them by a "scoop" that is out of the middle of the follower. It about 3/4" long and 3/16th wide.

I understand that the earlier versions of the "new system" use the same action rails as the previous models but the later version uses diffrerent rails.

The ones I have see with feeding problems occured with the second round. The round goes to far across to the right and the bullet misses the chamber by a mile.

There is an engineer from Winchester who occassionally post on HuntAmerica. He goes by the name of Headache. Not a good handle for a Windhester employee

I have a stainless one here with the new system. It feeds OK but nowhere near as smoothly as the earlier versions.

Mike

22 October 2001, 16:54

<jagtip>

RONL....We don't live far apart.I'm just outside Charlotte....Perhaps I've been lucky but I have 2 win 70 safari express rifles.One is a 416 rem,the other is a 458 win.I've put hundreds of rounds through each without a hint of a problem with either.As you're aware,the Savage is a push feed and for a DGR,it's not without it's critics.If I had the financial health to be able to afford an African safari (I don't),I'd be far more likely to take a look at one of the Dakota rifles.For whatever it's worth.

23 October 2001, 00:45

<Ozhunter>

Ron,

Have a look at the Ruger Magnum Rifle in 375H&H or 416 Rigby, a very nice CRF double square bridge magnum mauser type action.

Very well finished rifle and easily the nicest production Ruger (maybe go as far as nicest product rifle ) going. The examples I have seen have excellent wood and overall finish. More $$ than the Win, but I just can't get enthused about a Savage for any pressure work.

23 October 2001, 02:11

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Ron,
The Savage 116SE does not have true controlled-round feed, and I don't know any hunters who have used it in Africa. I just don't have enough information on its reliability to recommend it to you.
George

George, sorry to contradict you, but the Savage 116SE is a control feed rifle! It comes in 300 Win Mag, 338 WinMag, and 458 Win Mag. with a muzzle brake, express sights, and stainless steel.

IMO, one could slick up the feeding, and fit with a synthetic stock, and have a servicable buffalo rifle with the 458 Win Mag, useing handloads pushing 450 gr bullets at around 2200 fps. It is also my opinion, that the 458 win mag does not handle 500 gr bullets effeciently, but with 400, or 450 gr bullets it is a stinger! A 400 gr .458 bullet pushed at only 2100 fps, gives a TAYLOR KO VALUE OF 54, and that ain't bad!

That being said, if I were going to hunt Africa, I would rather have a Mauser, or Mod 70 at the same price or a little less after the work is done on each!

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 10-22-2001).]

23 October 2001, 05:17

GeorgeS

Mac,
I don't take disagreements personally

However, the Savage 116 is not a true controlled feeding system because the extractor does not engage the case rim until the cartridge is fully chambered and the bolt rotated into battery.

George

------------------
Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

23 October 2001, 05:38

<Crash>

I find it strange that no one has brought up the CZ 550. I agree that the Savage is accurate, but imo they have other problems which would exclude them as a DGR.

Crash

23 October 2001, 12:37

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Mac,
However, the Savage 116 is not a true controlled feeding system because the extractor does not engage the case rim until the cartridge is fully chambered and the bolt rotated into battery. George

You see? You learn something new every day you are awake! Evidently I was asleep on that one!

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

24 October 2001, 02:13

JudgeG

I have a Savage in .458 that feeds like a charm. I also have two more .458's and will part with the Savage quite reasonablay.

I have never shot the Savage, just fed rounds through it. I don't believe it has ever been shot.

25 October 2001, 13:13

JLHeard

I have a M70 in .375 H&H and have put about 40 rounds through it so far (been busy getting ready for deer season

), but I don't recall having feeding problems with it.

------------------
It is not enough to fight for natural land and the west; it is even more important to enjoy it. While you can. While it's still there. So get out there and hunt and fish and mess around with your friends...Enjoy yourselves, keep your brain in your head and your head firmly attached to the body, the body active and alive, and I promise you this much: I promise you this one sweet victory over our enemies, over those deskbound men with their hearts in a safe-deposit box and their eyes hypnotized by desk calculators. I promise you this: you will outlive the bastards.

- Edward Abbey

26 October 2001, 07:51

MacD37

GeorgeS, I would like you to explain how the feeding works on the Savage without the extrator engageing the rim till the bolt is turned down. Exactly what is it that allows it be advertised as a "CRF"?

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

26 October 2001, 10:57

GeorgeS

Mac,
I think the folks at Savage can explain better than I can. If I remember correctly, there is a photo of the boltface on their website.
As for their claim that it is CRF, well, that depends on their definition of CRF, doesn't it?

George

------------------
Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

26 October 2001, 12:05

<rwj>

George: I have heard other arguements that say Ruger actions are not true CRF for what sounds like similar reasons that the Savage actions are not CRF. Is that true? What do you think about ForrestB's recent story that his custom mauser .375 locked up on him under a buffalo charge that resulted in his nephew be battered (a thread relayed last week I think)?

Robert

27 October 2001, 14:05

MacD37

As suggested by Mr. GeorgeS, I went to the Savage website,
www.savagearms.com
Click on Classic series, then 116SE

There is indeed a picture of the boltface on that page. I quote the caption under that picture.

"Controled round feed on the 116SE provides a positive feeding action when chambering a cartridge. As a cartridge feeds from the magazine, it is held in place under the extractor on the bolt as it moves forward into the chamber, insuring reliable feeding."

I might add the picture is quite clearly a picture of a control feed bolt face!

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 10-27-2001).]

27 October 2001, 15:43

<R. A. Berry>

MacD37,
You are correct. It is a true CRF but it has the plunger ejector (I think) and a short little extractor that both reside in the bolt head that is mechanically attached to the separate bolt body. Too complicated, right?

rwj,
The Ruger Mark II Model 77 is a true CRF that is essentially Mauser. You must be thinking about the old pushfeed original Model 77.

------------------
RAB

27 October 2001, 16:44

GeorgeS

There was an article in the September/October issue of Rifle Shooter magazine in which the author stated the extractor does not engage the rim until the round is chambered.

I was basing my statement on that article; if the Savage is a true CRF, I apologize for perpetuating an inaccuracy

George

------------------
Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

28 October 2001, 03:03

raamw

I am not a gun expert nor am I familiar with the M70 , I do however own a Savage 116SE in 458 Win Mag. I have only owned this firearm a short time and have fired it 30 times at a range. The rifle functioned perfectly, again conditions were perfect. The way the action works in reference to stripping ammo out of its mag is as follows: The mag is internal, it is machined to push up the next cartridge in such a way that causes the base of the cartridge to immediately become engaged to the bolt face as soon as the bolt is pulled back far enough in the action. The bolt face is machined similar to a "U" werein the open part of the "U" is face down to accept this catridge as is pushed up causing the extractor to immediately engage the rim as the cartridge is pushed forward out of the mag and into the chamber (not like the a remington 700 or Browning A Bolt bolt face which have a full rim which encloses the cartridge base causing the extractor to grasp the rim). As I see this action function the cartridge is under complete control either by the magazine or the bolt and at no time is the cartridge loose. I do notice that when a cartridge is cycled through the magazine it causes noticable scratches on the brass this due to the engagement of the magazine "lips" which control its direction and engagement into the bolt face and subsequently the chamber. The ejector is not a plunger type as is on the Rem700, it is a spring loaded peace of metal that protrudes from the lower part of the action and rides insides a machined recess in the bolt which either allows it to protrude up or pushes it down out of the way.
If there is something that I have missed or you would like checked please feel free to ask me.

28 October 2001, 06:46

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by raamw:
I am not a gun expert nor am I familiar with the M70 , I do however own a Savage 116SE in 458 Win Mag.

Expert or not,raamw, that was a fine description of a control feed action!

The scratches can be avoided by polishing the underside of the feed rails, they more than likely have burrs from the stamping process, that were not smoothed out by the factory. This is not uncommon, and many little things have to be done on OUT OF THE BOX assembly line firearms. This, however does not mean the rifle is substandard, for use in the field! I find that all the Savage bolt rifles I have owned have been tack drivers, once the rough edges were ironed out!

------------------
..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art