Ladies and Gentlemen,

I was watching a video last night where Russ Broom said that with modern softs, solids are not really needed for buffalo (the hunter was using a 470 NE).

The PH I hunted with in Tanzania said I didn't need any solids for my .416 Rem. We were hunting herds, but he said he saw no reason for ever using solids. He thought the .416 had plenty of penetration using only softs. (He was a big fan of Barnes X; I was shooting A-Frames).

Are modern softs sufficiently "tough" to eliminate the need for solids when buffalo hunting? What about the .375 H&H, do you think it has sufficient penetration to use only softs on buffalo?

Regards,

Terry

[ 01-13-2003, 23:58: Message edited by: T.Carr ]

T.Carr - I see no real problem with the "softs" only mentality. I shoot them in .416 Dakota and Rigby. But I still shoot solids in my .450 Dakota. Of the buff I have shot with .416 I find the bullet under the skill on the off side. The .450 Dakota and solids through the shoulders just keeps on going.

It is true you do need to be very careful when shooting in herds with solids. However, I have seen enough X bullets not open and act just like a solid. I would much rather have a A-Frame or better yet a Woodleigh.

There will probably always be the two camps on this. Guys swear by one or the other. In the long run it probably doesn't matter.

BTW, if a soft from a .450 Dakota or a .470 NE can't kill a buff, we're all in trouble.

I don't hunt buff anymore, but solids for brain shots and softs for everything else seemed to work okay.

Will

[ 01-14-2003, 00:58: Message edited by: Will ]

I hunted with one of Russ's PH's (Rory Muil) this summer and he said the same thing. He named the typical high quality softs and mentioned they were plenty for buffalo. He was also partial to X's.
Will is right that there will always be two camps on the subject, but I think a few people find themselves switching camps as the quality and availablity of high quality softs continues to improve.
It's funny how Rory only carried solids, but many people from this board would discount his opinion any way because he used a push feed Four-Five-Eight Win.
Kyler

Hunted with Russ Broom Safaris in '98. My PH, Doug Carlisle, was a believer (for the hunter that is) in a quality soft point up the tube and solids in the magazine. For "back up" purposes, he had his .450 Ackley stuffed full of solids. This is probably fairly typical, as chances are, the PH's first shot is not going to be at an undisturbed standing animal, but one that is headed for the next country, or headed for you! At which point of course, Murphy's Law will take over, and he will have some weird angling shot.

It all depends on the angle. On a perfect broadside shot, penetration is not an issue. From other angles, penetration becomes a greater concern.

T Carr,
That's interesting... As posted above, I think there will always be different views on this. Our PH in Tanzania wanted us to use nothing but solids .....especially with the 375HH. The other rifle was a 416. We were hunting in very thick cover and the bulls were few and far between.
Terry

T.Carr,

Please allow my input. I think Will is right also. Probably two camps on this one. From my experience I've always been told to shoot the buff with a good soft then have all remaining shells in solid. I think it's a good piece of advice as with brain or spine shots or if you have a chance for follow up shot as they are running away the solid will give way better penetration.

I hope you don't mind the story but I think it goes with your thread title and also depicts the incredible penetration of solids. I was with Luke Samaras safaris in the Selous,Tanzania and his son Jasper was our ph. One afternoon we were driving toward a known waterhole and a good buff hang out. We stopped short by several hundrud yards and walked up to the edge of the brush. Several bulls were watering and all were 150 - 200 yards away. My rifle was a Model 70 chambered in .416 Remington mag loaded with factory Remington ammo in Safari grade Swift A frames. My rifle has been customized so I can put 5 rounds in the mag and one up the spout so it's a 6 round bolt action rifle. Jasper asked me if I could shoot that far. I said yes and then he asked me take out all the softs and go to all solids. (All Remington solid ammo) I guess with the distance, he wanted maximum damage although he never did really say. There were six bulls and when we picked the best one I eased up into the tripod sticks that had been placed by the tracker, Rama. I'd had plenty of time to think about this and I decided that after my first well placed shot that I was going to let the lead fly as these guys were out in the open. I'd always wanted to do that on something like a buff.

The scope on the rifle is a 1x - 4x leopold and I have to admit the bull did not look very large on 4x. I'm used to closer buff shots. I waited for good broadside and touched off. Hit him hard in the right front shoulder, reloaded and shot again, generally in the same place. By now all the other buff are thundering for cover but my bull was laging and running straight away so I shot him again in the rear and heard the smacking report of a hit. Fired again and missed and then shot one more time and hit him in the rear again with the same angle. He staggered and fell dead. As we walked over to the buff I clearly recall my jaw hurting a bit and ears ringing. After taking pictures we examined the bullet wounds. Both front shoulder shots went straight thru and we found two entry wounds in the hind quarters and one exit wound coming out just in front of the left front shoulder. The other rear end exit shot could not be found so we figured it must still be inside the animal. After roasted buff heart went back to camp.

The next day Jasper said he had something to show me. I followed him to the skinning shed where he produced my buffs boiled skull. He asked me to look at the teeth on the lower jaw. I did so and was amazed to find most of the teeth on lower right jaw were freshly damaged by an exiting bullet. There was also damage to the jaw bone it self. The only explanation we had was one of the 3rd or 4th shots had entered the rear and exited out thru the mouth! We were both stunned by the penetration of this round to say the least. I don't know if there anyone else out there that has had this happen but it is the absolute truth.
Besides, us hunters and fisherman don't lie.
I can post a picture if anyone wants to see him.

T.Carr, I'll also add that a buff I shot in Zambia in 99 was shot 4 times broadside with same rifle with 2 softs (a-frame) and 2 solids and all went thru him.

Kyler and Juneau,

As you know, Broom has good buff. He sent me pics yesterday of a 47" and 44" bull from the valley in Zim. Very impressive animals.

Keith,

Therein lies the problem with solids. I would GUESS that the buffalo would have went down faster with a soft (Swift or whatever) rather then having to blast away with a magazine full of solids.

My son had a similar experience this year...three solids right behind the shoulder before it went down.

But I'm sure the next story will PROVE the opposite!!

Will

Kyler,

When I hunted with Rory 2 years ago he carried a 50 caliber CRF rifle of some sort and did have a 458. My friend hunted with him this year but did not mention what he carried. I also hunted with Gavin Rorke who works with Russ Broom and he says the same thing but always makes sure I have a couple of solids just in case.

Keith,

I am guessing the picture of the 47 inch buff is the one my wife shot last year. I doubt Russ had 2 of them. I spotted the buff before her but let her shoot it as it was her turn. She put 8 softs in it from the 375 and I finished it with 2 470 solids. It not only had big horns but was a huge buffalo.

By the way Gavin in the last 2 years has gotten us a 42 with 18 inch bosses, a big boss 37 and that 47. I told Gavin that is a 42 inch average and I will not settle for less next time. He says no problem.

BigB

BigB,

Well small world! Perhaps you should be the one to post a picture? Gavin is a GREAT PH. I shot my elephant with him. Gavin reminds me of a large tree trunk. I think his nick name is mopane. Congrats on that fine buff to your wife!

Keith,

I posted the pictures last July so if you do a search on 46 inch buffalo you will find it. As I recall the measurement was just shy of 47, maybe 46 3/4. I also shot an elephant with Gavin and yes he is as big as a tree. I wear a 3X shirt and they are to small for Gavin.

BigB