Let me start off by saying that I have never been there, know little about the area other than what I have read here of late and have no bone to pick with anyone that works or operates there.

However, the recent repetitive claims by some AR members who are "in the know" about the uncontrolled quota's of lion offered for hunting begs the question:

"Is lion hunting there doomed"??

It reminds me of the Kigosi blocks in Tz situation played out in the recent past where a change of outfitter resulted in an excessive harvest through hunting of lion and shortly thereafter, a collapse of the population. I remembered being nicely roasted over the AR coals for pointing out that harvesting 11- 13 lions a season from those concessions was unsustainable. Mind you, the Kigosi concessions in question appear to be several times larger in size then Nyaksanga/Sapi which is witnessing the shooting of 8+ lions a season!

So is it doomed?

Bwana - The Lion itself is what's doomed in Nyakasanga/Sapi! The unrelentless slaughter of these lions in such a small place is definitely not sustainable - not at all!!!

It goes in cycles. In 1994/95 we had the (then) Vice president operating VIP safaris in the area and took 23 male lion out of Nykasanga alone in '95. We also had an outbreak of FIV. To say that the lion population dived would be an understatement. By '96 there were only 4 or 5 known prides in Nykasanga - all with over 20 females and usually a sub adult male 'in charge'. We took lion off quota, sorted out VIP safari issues and five years later the new world No 1 lion was taken in Rifa (part of the same ecosystem and adjacent to Nyakasanga - and subject to the same problem of an extreme shortage of males, and a massive decline in total numbers). Official quotas are still not as high as they were in 1993...Lion bounce back pretty quick if you give them half a chance.

Ganyana,

While I agree lion are proficient multipliers and can bounce back if given the chance...let's NOT take our eye off of the other portion of your statement and that is "the sorting out of the problem". Thus far...there is no forecast that the problem will be sorted out.

Therfore...you both are correct. Stop the excessive consumption soon and lion will bounce back. Leave it too long...they WILL be history.

There is a point of NO return for everything. Just remember how many black rhino one would bump into in the valley in the 1980's!!!

I challenge all you that hunt Chewore to think about this...in early 1980's...it was common to bump into black rhino there. IS the lion going to go the same way???

Ganyana - IMO, Lane makes the ultimate point here. Yes, what you say is dead-on accurate, but of little consequence if the lion slaughter continues.

Rifa also gets 2 lion on quota, its hunted by a couple of very responsible PH's. They just happen to unfortunately share in the same ecosystem, as you mention.

I'm not familiar with the geography of this area.

If it is just a "part" of a much larger ecosystem that is relatively well controlled, then - i dare say - it is capable to bounce back even after many years of abuse. But not forever.

You see shooting so many males from a concentrated area kind of creates a "male lion vacuum" and this "vacuum" can attract other males from the neighborhood, who in turn are then hunted and shot. So while the effect on the larger population in the ecosystem is not quickly noticeable, it could still end up being a problem in the long run.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
I'm not familiar with the geography of this area.

If it is just a "part" of a much larger ecosystem that is relatively well controlled, then - i dare say - it is capable to bounce back even after many years of abuse. But not forever.

You see shooting so many males from a concentrated area kind of creates a "male lion vacuum" and this "vacuum" can attract other males from the neighborhood, who in turn are then hunted and shot. So while the effect on the larger population in the ecosystem is not quickly noticeable, it could still end up being a problem in the long run.

Bwana - Looking at the geographical locale, I would NOT say its part of a much larger ecosystem! But honestly, Ganyana would be more qualified than I, to accurately respond.

Regardless, the abuse is shameful!

The lion of the zambezi valley and escarpment form one ecosystem. This is coprised of a) Mana Pools National Park- the main resevoir for lion (and many other vulnerable species), Going west you have Nyakasanga and then rifa Safari areas- to the east, Sapi, Chewore and then Dande safari areas and to the south, Makuti and (south west) Charara.

In '94/95 the main problem in terms of over hunting was confined to Nyakasanga but in combination with FIV had an impact right across from Dande to charara - We had to cut all lion quotas to get the bounce back (but that was disease and over hunting...this time it is just over hunting)..

But Lane - I get your point. At Sengwa I always walked with an automatic eye out for the nearest climable tree as at somepoint in the day a rhino would 'tree me'...last saw one in '96...And the Rhino population of the Zambezi valley fell from c5000 in 1987 to 0 by 1996. We lost that round and they will never be back (rhino born outside tsetse fly areas die if they are re-introduced into an area that has Tsetse fly- and at last count there were 8 tsetse fly imune rhino left in matusadona NP)

And we actually have no idea about lion- could we re-introduce lion from say Hwange to 'fix' a problem in a few years? I would guess not based on experience with several species and knowing a little of the varied and (scientifically) interesting diseases in the valley.

We have a few years grace, even at the current rate of attrition. We just need one old &%¤#"! safely booked into Hell and sanity to return before then.

quote:

We just need one old &%¤#"! safely booked into Hell and sanity to return before then.

A few of his disciples need to accompany him if you want to see an acceptable change.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
We lost that round and they will never be back (rhino born outside tsetse fly areas die if they are re-introduced into an area that has Tsetse fly- and at last count there were 8 tsetse fly imune rhino left in matusadona NP)

And we actually have no idea about lion- could we re-introduce lion from say Hwange to 'fix' a problem in a few years? I would guess not based on experience with several species and knowing a little of the varied and (scientifically) interesting diseases in the valley.

So true Ganyana...and a very bitter dose to swallow...maybe Raoul will unravel the mystery of trypanosome resistance and once Uncle B is roasting we can move some black rhino back into the fly belt.

It is being done in another fly area now of which I can't disclose the location.

Anyway...let's try not to let the lion go the same way.