What is your usual practice when in Africa?

I always speak with the PH and then follow his rules....absolutely.

Regardless I never chamber a round unless told by the PH, so mag full and nothing in chamber.

For example, I will clear my rifle in front of the PH and trackers whenever re-entering the hunting vehicle and first thing in the morning and last thing at night. I don't like safety catches, so prefer to carry my rifle with the bolt lifted, if at all possible. When in the vehicle the bolt is always lifted even on an empty chamber or the rifle has been cleared in front of all concerned and the cocking indicator is checked. Muzzle direction is always watched, regardless.

I realise this can't be done with doubles.

What do the PH's here like to see from a client?

And as a client, what do you normally do?

Blair, I like the gun to be unloaded, (chamber only, some in mag), pointed in a safe direction, and a dry shot fired before getting back on the car. This way, every one sees and heras it is safe. On a PG hunt, walk with it like this as well, on a DG hunt, laded with a good safety. I do not like Brno ? CZ safeties, esp if the hunter are not very fammiliar with them

Karl,

That is the procedure I follow, though I might not of explained it as simply as you have.

Interesting point about the CZ safety......

quote:

I always speak with the PH and then follow his rules....absolutely.

+1

Blair
I think you have it spot on, thanks for starting the topic.

Will be in touch soon, Christmas may be coming early in 2010

I NEVER carry a round in the chamber when inside the vehicle. At all other times I have a round chambered whatever game I am hunting. I NEVER dryfire my rifle I just have a natural aversion to it. Most of the time I do let the firing pin down but not by firing . I feel safe with any safety that works and have a CZ 416 Rigby and a Brno ZKK 375 H&H and have no problem with either and feel perfectly safe with them.

I emptied my rifle every time we got back in the truck until my PH told me that it was OK to travel with the magazine full and the chamber empty.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I NEVER carry a round in the chamber when inside the vehicle. At all other times I have a round chambered whatever game I am hunting. I NEVER dryfire my rifle I just have a natural aversion to it. Most of the time I do let the firing pin down but not by firing . I feel safe with any safety that works and have a CZ 416 Rigby and a Brno ZKK 375 H&H and have no problem with either and feel perfectly safe with them.

I must admit, I had the same feeling about dry firing but most PH's want it that way, it's an audible check... if not, I'll let them check the rifle themselves.....

With regard to safeties, here in Oz, a lot of culling is done at night, shooters get in the habit of always opening the bolt, so everyone is reassured the chamber is empty. So you never get in the habit of using them.

Frank,

Karl would have been bloody happy with you.......

quote:

Blair
I think you have it spot on, thanks for starting the topic.

Ian,

I heard a story from a PH recently......and that's what prompted the thread..

As a fire arm safety instructor I never assume any rifle is safe (empty chamber). I use a bolt gun and a double.. When we come together, to regroup or plan stratgey I always open my double and open up the bolt and when we start out I always ask PH if he want me to load the rifle...chamber a round
Mike

If I'm hunting dangerous game, and I always am, then the double gets loaded when I get out of the truck, and if we stop for lunch or a chit-chat I either break the double open, or remove the cartridges, till we hit the trail again. With a bolt rifle, I load the magazine, and close the bolt on an empty chamber, and releave the fireing pin, but I do not, and will not snap any rifle on an empty chamber! I want my rifle to fire when I need it to, and a broken fireing pin doesn't allow that to happen!

When I get close to the target, I chamber a round in the bolt rifle, and leave the bolt closed but handle up, with my thumb over the bolt so all that is needed to get the rifle armed is to pull the bolt handle down with my thumb, and rock & roll!

Safeties are not positively safe, so one must be aware of the muzzle, or muzzles, of his rifle at all times. When we get back in the truck, I unload the double, and/or unload the chamber of the bolt rifle, and releave the fireing pin on the empty chamber! In camp where ever my double is, it is unloaded, but my ammo belt is hanging on it,or on me, for quick loading if needed. The bolt has the magazine loaded chamber empty, bolt handle up!

Of course you discuss this with a PH you have never hunted with, that is nothing more than a courtesy that must be extended!

The dry firing question comes up a lot in my tactical training classes.

My answer is " If the firing pin in your weapon is so fragile it could break if you dry fire it, do you want to depend on it to save your life" ?

Same goes for DG hunting.

This is a rather interesting thread to see. This exact topic was a major point of cntention between my PH and the former friend who went to Namibia with me in '07. The PH's rule was magazine full, chamber empty until we were either in a blind or in the final stages of a stalk. Worked for me as that is more or less how I normaly hunt. The other guy spent most of the trip bitching about this particular point with the PH. He basically was of the opinion that due to not having a round in the chamber the PH was forcing us to go unarmed. It didn't go over to well when I told the guy that if he was so unfamiliar with his rifle that he couldn't cycle the bolt before shooting he needed to find another sport. He almost canceled the rest of his hunt on the second day due to that issue, and in retrospect I wish he had.

Typically with bolt actions I carry mag full nothing in the chamber until the shot is certain. I always leave the safe on and I typically check the trigger pull when I engage the safety. I never raise the bolt handle, it's too easy for the bolt to fall open due to hang ups on brush and this presents a whole new set of issues.
With doubles I load and leave on safe or de-cocked.
Naturally I'm always concerned with where my muzzle is pointing weather loaded or not.
In the truck, double is unloaded completely and bolt action will have magazine full only, nothing in the chamber, safe on. I continuely check my rifles for safe loading and safe operation while exiting, carrying or returning to the truck. When returning to the truck when I unload I will call out "gun safe" and even question others (PH) if they've made their guns safe.

I've had to follow up dangerous game in thick bush and when the sign is smoking hot I'll go to "gun un-safe" and even shouldering it BUT ALWAYS AWARE OF EVERYONES POSITION. I make sure the PH knows I'm going un-safe as he usually already is in the condition.

I never have the bolt "up" or "open". I never have a round in the chamber, but have the magazine fully loaded when in the field; vehicle or otherwise. I strip all rounds from the weapon when the hunt is finished for the day, before leaving the field; usually at dark.

I don't ever dry-fire my weapon, nor have I been asked by any PH, nor has any PH dry-fired his weapon in front of me. I trust myself and my safety.

I still remember my father telling me to imagine that you have a long stick down the end of the barrel, and you don't want to hit anyone with it; in other words don't ever allow the end of the barrel to point at anyone.

I like to feel a little bit uncomfortable with a weapon, meaning that I don't always assume I haven't made a mistake, or someone else has.

Something else I do is that I will probably once or twice a day work the bolt back an inch to visually confirm the round is either in or out of the chamber as I want it to be. I don't want to make a mistake either way.

I'm more careful with myself now since I don't usually handle a weapon except a week or so a year. I know I'm more prone to a mistake.

Safety around guns is very important.

When I am hunting my guns are loaded. I do not walk around with an empty gun.
I discuss this with my PH Guide before I book.

There are times when climbing, crawling, crossing a fence etc when I will empty the chamber.

I usually do not ride around with a round in the chamber when in a vehicle.

However, on the instructions of my PH, sometimes we were trying to sneak the vehicle through some elephants he would have me load my double, but I kept it broken open until I stuck it out the window if it became necessary.

Also, I have spent a lot of time ridding around with some buddies in tha back of a van with loaded automatic weapons making house calls, and none of us ever got shot in the vehicle.

It is entirely possible to be safe around loaded guns.

Blair 338, I am not a PH but an outfitter. Three years ago I was in New Zealand with a client, at their request, while he was hunting Stag on the North Island. After the client had shot his Stag he turned his rifle in my "general" direction and in his haste he pulled the trigger to clear the barrel. Well as it was the rifle fired and the round missed my head by inches. The shock was enough to silence all 3 of us there and put a somber mood on the rest of the week.
I since have since insisted physically, if need be, that all firearms are cleared exactly to the PH's rules immediately. I also have not traveled with this client again but he remains a client of mine. I am always busy and tied down with office and future plans when his trips roll around.

quote:

Originally posted by Alaska Hunter:
Typically with bolt actions I carry mag full nothing in the chamber until the shot is certain. I always leave the safe on and I typically check the trigger pull when I engage the safety. I never raise the bolt handle, it's too easy for the bolt to fall open due to hang ups on brush and this presents a whole new set of issues.
With doubles I load and leave on safe or de-cocked.
Naturally I'm always concerned with where my muzzle is pointing weather loaded or not.
In the truck, double is unloaded completely and bolt action will have magazine full only, nothing in the chamber, safe on. I continuely check my rifles for safe loading and safe operation while exiting, carrying or returning to the truck. When returning to the truck when I unload I will call out "gun safe" and even question others (PH) if they've made their guns safe.

I've had to follow up dangerous game in thick bush and when the sign is smoking hot I'll go to "gun un-safe" and even shouldering it BUT ALWAYS AWARE OF EVERYONES POSITION. I make sure the PH knows I'm going un-safe as he usually already is in the condition.

AH..

I've never been afraid to ask a PH about the staus of his own rifle either.

I've never hunted dangerous game, whilst a lot of you blokes have, so it is interesting to see your point of view with regard to carry in that situation

quote:

Originally posted by Cunningham:
Blair 338, I am not a PH but an outfitter. Three years ago I was in New Zealand with a client, at their request, while he was hunting Stag on the North Island. After the client had shot his Stag he turned his rifle in my "general" direction and in his haste he pulled the trigger to clear the barrel. Well as it was the rifle fired and the round missed my head by inches. The shock was enough to silence all 3 of us there and put a somber mood on the rest of the week.
I since have since insisted physically, if need be, that all firearms are cleared exactly to the PH's rules immediately. I also have not traveled with this client again but he remains a client of mine. I am always busy and tied down with office and future plans when his trips roll around.

It was the relating of an incident similar to yours by a PH that prompted me to post up the topic.

quote:

Originally posted by krieger:
The dry firing question comes up a lot in my tactical training classes.

My answer is " If the firing pin in your weapon is so fragile it could break if you dry fire it, do you want to depend on it to save your life" ?

Same goes for DG hunting.

Can't agree with you on that point. I'm in MacD37's corner on the dry firing issue. I'm dead against it.

quote:

Originally posted by krieger:
The dry firing question comes up a lot in my tactical training classes.

My answer is " If the firing pin in your weapon is so fragile it could break if you dry fire it, do you want to depend on it to save your life" ?

Same goes for DG hunting.

Krieger, you may do as it pleases you, and you may teach your clients what ever they are willing to accept from your training. If dry-fireing your firearms floats your boat, then set sail, but because you teach that practice doesn't make it correct.

Dry fireing is detrimental to the long term reliability,and wear, and tear of a fire arm, especially a double rifle. There is not a maker of fine rifles anywhere in the world that reccomends dryfireing their product, that is what snappcaps, and striker blocks were made for!

As far as my rifles not working when they are supposed to,I've never had one fail me in a tight sittuation, be it a DGR, or a self defense handgun or shotgun! Could that be because I take great care of my rifles, and they return the favor! I certainly would not want to use one of your rifles to go into the weeds with a wounded, pissed off Cape Buffalo!

I'd certainly suspect that the reason some of my double rifles, that are over 100 yrs old, are still fireing the cartridges with the same pins that were placed in them by the maker, who certainly does not reccomend pulling the triggers on empty chambers, and does reccomend the use of snappcaps, or horn stricker block, to let the strikers down!

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:
Frank,

Karl would have been bloody happy with you.......

I actually hunted with Francois Marais, one of the PH's that works for Karl.

I know I'm not the only one here who has witnessed the "AD" of an unloaded or otherwise "rendered safe" firearm. As a matter of fact, I have witnesses more than one. It's a refreshing experience, isn't it?

My first was as a young Marine at Camp Pendleton. Some other young Marine "AD'd" a "rendered safe" 1911 and put a 230gr FMJ round through the passenger window of a truck I was sitting in. The round passed in front of my face and missed me by about 6 inches or so. I was 19 years old. When you are 19 years old you kind of laugh those things off. But the experience stayed with me.

I went on to a career where I daily carried several different kinds of firearms professionally as tools. I witnessed two other "AD's" in tactical scenarios. And as my career progressed I investigated and reviewed several others from an administrative standpoint.

Quality firearms don't discharge by themselves. Lack of maintenance may sometimes contribute to an "unintended discharge" but the bottom line is operator error. Anyone who believes otherwise is either uniformed, inexperienced, a civil plaintiff, or product liability attorney.

My point? Get your shit together. Know the gun you carry, know what makes it work, and what makes it safe. Learn your manipulation skills. And keep the f-----g muzzle pointed away from others. And then do what your PH asks, as long as it is safe. So what if you miss the opportunity to make that shot on that buffalo? You'll do better next time and life will go on. To think you must stagger and stumble and crawl through the bush with a round in the chamber is to admit your shortcomings. Double rifles excluded, of course. Dry fire? No reason to if you are sure your chamber is empty. So make sure. This is YOUR responsibility; no one elses'.

I have never witnessed an AD in a hunting environment. But I know of clients who have, and who have had them. I too know of professional hunters and guides who have had them. In fact, one very well known Zim PH shot his tracker while carrying a double over his shoulder.

No excuse. Simply no excuse.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Krieger, you may do as it pleases you, and you may teach your clients what ever they are willing to accept from your training. If dry-fireing your firearms floats your boat, then set sail, but because you teach that practice doesn't make it correct.

Hi Mac,

You live in a world of hunting and fine rifles and I am in a world of well, ugly black guns.

We just live in different worlds with different mindsets.

I guess the two are not comparable.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:
Frank,

Karl would have been bloody happy with you.......

I actually hunted with Francois Marais, one of the PH's that works for Karl.

Frank,

I checked your hunt report and saw that. My apopogies.......

quote:

Originally posted by krieger:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Krieger, you may do as it pleases you, and you may teach your clients what ever they are willing to accept from your training. If dry-fireing your firearms floats your boat, then set sail, but because you teach that practice doesn't make it correct.

Hi Mac,

You live in a world of hunting and fine rifles and I am in a world of well, "ugly black guns".

We just live in different worlds with different mindsets.

I guess the two are not comparable.

Why did I already know that?

We do not live in two different worlds, however,I just happen to live in both your's, and mine, because my weapons for self defense are as much in use on a daily basis, even more so than my DGR rifles. My guess is, you teach CHL classes, and maybe private self defense training, neither of which automaticlly makes anyone any sort of expert on firearms technology!

The fact that a so-called "BLACK GUN" is stamped out junk,in most cases, has nothing to do with whether it is advisable to dry fire them. The army tried to tell me to dry fire my rifle, in the Korea era, and it is no more valid today than it was then, but they still teach it today. It is easy to let the fireing pin down without dryfireing on almost any firearm. The fact is, it is simply not the best practice one can apply to a firearm he may need to defend his life, be the target a lion, or a human. A failier in either case can cost you, or someone else thier life! Besides dryfireing serves no purpose, that can't be accomplished in a better way!

I'm sure none of this will change your mind, or modify what you teach your clients, so I suppose we will simply have to agree to disagree!
...............BYE

Why did I already know that?

We do not live in two different worlds, however,I just happen to live in both your's, and mine, because my weapons for self defense are as much in use on a daily basis, even more so than my DGR rifles. My guess is, you teach CHL classes, and maybe private self defense training, neither of which automaticlly makes anyone any sort of expert on firearms technology! [/QUOTE]

No, I don't teach Texas CHL or private self defense.

You are correct, I don't take training advice from a retired airline employee.

Just because you carry a sidearm for self defense doesn't make you part of my world.

Back to the original topic...If I'm hunting DG or hunting in a DG Area,, regardless of what I'm hunting, I will always carry a round in the chamber when out of the vehicle. When returning the the truck, I will remove the round in the chamber, keep the rounds in the magazine and if carrying a bolt action rifle, I will dry fire the gun and then hand it to the trackers in the back for casing. I want everyone to know the gun is unloaded. I've never heard of a firing pin in a bolt action rifle being impacted by dry firing. In fact many old PH's "practiced" by dry firing their rifles literally thousands of times. If I'm carrying a double, I will break the rifle and remove the rounds in front of the PH and hand the gun to them broken, so that everyone will know its unloaded. I don't dry fire doubles or shotguns for that matter. If we stop by a road or take a break I will remove the round(s) in the chamber. When hunting, I will usually take the same rounds from the same place in my front ammo carrier to load my rifle's chamber(s, so if the carrier is full, I know the guns are unloaded. At least until its empty for other reasons

An interesting and important discussion.

When hunting with new people I usually either ask about their habits, or at least observe them. If someone's handling is in my opinion unsafe I say so, and instruct about a safer practice also pointing out why the current habit of the person is unsafe.
Usually this advice has been well received, and I think that it depends a lot on how you present it. Also no-one wants to cause an accidental discharge or danger; and these people usually are not the first time in field so they understand what it's about.

More than 10 years ago the hunter's license test in Finland was renewed. Previously, you only needed to read a book and pass a written test (this is to obtain a general hunting license without which you are not allowed to hunt at all, i.e. no PH test), but in the new system you have to take 20hrs of lectures, including also a visit to the shooting range and firing both shotgun and hunting rifle.
There are no statistics to this, but I do believe this to be a sound practice to reduce gun related accidents.

Also keep in mind Jeff Cooper's firearm safety rules:
1) All guns are always loaded
2) Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy
3) Keep you finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target
4) Be sure of your target (and what's behind it)

Not taking any standpoint to snap firing (I don't do it), during my last hunt my hunting buddy told us an educating story about it, though.
His buddy had missed an animal, and he was major pissed. Coming back to the vehicle, mega-pissed and of course laughed at by his buddies, he emptied the rifle, but omitted to take out the magazine before cycling the bolt.
Fortunately, part of his routine was to snap fire a sighed shot in a safe direction (i.e. not in the air or just generally), and of course the gun went off.
Apparently it was scary as hell, but as the shot was aimed and fired in a safe direction, nothing worse happened.
This routine of an aimed empty shot is taught in the army, and as military service is compulsory, most of the men I know still do it automatically, and for sure they cannot be faulted for that.

Shauckis: I agree with your take on safety. There is no substitute for it.

The rifle club that I am a Range Safety Officer at uses the same method as the Finland hunting test.
You have 5 hours of safety instruction and 1 hour of range testing. Our club has 1500 members and has been in existence since the late 1890's with no serious accidents except for one, but it wasn't firearm related.

A member got bit by a diamondback rattlesnake. Ouch.

One of my best friends, Erich, is from Finland. We went to school together here in Texas. He came here in 1975. First time I took him hunting at my cousin's ranch in west texas all he could say is "where are the trees?". This place is like Lappland with red dirt. It was a good laugh.

That year he got a very fine white tail deer.

Walking around, driving in the back of the vehicle with a round in the chamber is totally irresponsible. the only time a round goes into the chamber is just before you get onto the shooting stick or when you are in a tight situation with a follow up on DG... I personally will not be near anyone who is walking around the veld without having his prey / animal in sight with a round in the chamber and the safety on. If you are afraid that you will not have the time to get your shot in and will need to be ready to pull the trigger, then you should probably not be taking the rushed shot. It is with a bit of practice rather easy to cycle the bolt quitly enough for a kudu standing at 100 m not too hear you,

As for dry firing... well I am not a fan of it as my rifles are my babies and not mearly working rifles... I will not dry fire, I will drop the mag out, open the breach and show it to the PH or someone who can call it safe out loud to everyone.

Being out in the bush hunting a lot one tends to come across situations that could of been avoided if there was no round in the chamber. As they say in Afrikaans " liewers bang jan, as dooie jan" meaning it is better to be scared rather than dead.

quote:

I will drop the mag out, open the breach and show it to the PH or someone who can call it safe out loud to everyone.

Being out in the bush hunting a lot one tends to come across situations that could of been avoided if there was no round in the chamber. As they say in Afrikaans " liewers bang jan, as dooie jan" meaning it is better to be scared rather than dead.

A very apt Afrikaans saying.

Four facts and three photos and a question:
firts fact during a deer hunt one of the hunters got in the car and his muzzle braked rifle in 8x68S (with a 150 grams trigger, probably for an unwished touch of the trigger on the shoe or on the leg of the hunter) shoot.
Result: a hole in the roof and some point of hear loss for all the car passengers and for the driver. Remington rifle type. Safety "active".

Two facts happened to me, always Remington rifle type. Safety "active", same rifle brand.
Two times the same rifle: the first time it shooted while I was going to open the bolt after that I got on a carriage. I did not touch the trigger, and anything around can touch it, it simply shooted.
A second time, I loaded it, and I put it on right shoulder using the sling and it shooted.
The problem is usually dued to the trigger modification, but having lost the customer friendship, no work has beeen done to fix the problem. Probably I'll design and ask to a friend to build an original flag type Mauser safety for a Remington type p&f action. The rifle was loaded on PH request

And here three photos taht has been take last week: they represent the damage inflicted to a shooting bench by a 30-30 cast bullet.
Few seconds before the shot has leaved the bench to speak with the range officer.

The shooter on shooting line 7 closed his single shot express having the finger on the trigger and pointing the rifle toward the line 6, or if you prefer having the rifle pointed to the left orizzontally. Luckily no ricochet happened.







As president of the discipline council we will probably suspend the shooter for 4 monthes, while the president of the range will ask the expulsion. I do not claim too often to the miracle, but this time ....


Do you PH ask empty chamber also with Mauser type safeties?

Blair:

I agree with you about not carrying a rifle with a round in the chamber in the car. However, I don't agree about walking around in the bush with no round in the chamber. Things can happen fast. However, I would follow my PHs instructions in that regard.

Now see, if you guys all had Blasers, you wouldn't have to worry so much about this

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Blair:

I agree with you about not carrying a rifle with a round in the chamber in the car. However, I don't agree about walking around in the bush with no round in the chamber. Things can happen fast. However, I would follow my PHs instructions in that regard.

Now see, if you guys all had Blasers, you wouldn't have to worry so much about this

Dave

No you sure wouldn't have to worry about that happening with a Blaser! All you'd have to worry about is getting run into the ground when the first two didn't get the job done, and you forget, or not have time to re-cock the damn thing after a re-load. That rifle doesn't re-cock it's self on breaking the rifle to re-load! Now the Krieghoff does re-cock when broken open after your first two shots. The K system I can live with but the Blaser belongs in the deer fields, not where dangerous game walks.

I agree that both the Blaser, and the Krieghoff double rifles are one of the safest system around, as far as being safe around your peers, But the Blaser, because it doesn't re-cock it's self on opening, is a liability in a close in fight with a mad animal with a couple holes punched in him from the first two shots that didn't get the job done. With the K-gun, you simply drop two fresh rounds in the chambers, close, and POP, POP! This has nothing to do with range safety, but is like haveing a simi auto, that you must be re-cocked after every two shots, in a street gun fight!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Malinverni:
Four facts and three photos and a question:
firts fact during a deer hunt one of the hunters got in the car and his muzzle braked rifle in 8x68S (with a 150 grams trigger, probably for an unwished touch of the trigger on the shoe or on the leg of the hunter) shoot.
Result: a hole in the roof and some point of hear loss for all the car passengers and for the driver. Remington rifle type. Safety "active".

Two facts happened to me, always Remington rifle type. Safety "active", same rifle brand.
Two times the same rifle: the first time it shooted while I was going to open the bolt after that I got on a carriage. I did not touch the trigger, and anything around can touch it, it simply shooted.
A second time, I loaded it, and I put it on right shoulder using the sling and it shooted.
The problem is usually dued to the trigger modification, but having lost the customer friendship, no work has beeen done to fix the problem. Probably I'll design and ask to a friend to build an original flag type Mauser safety for a Remington type p&f action. The rifle was loaded on PH request

STEVE, I agree with you that many, if not most ADs are user induced. This one was as well on two counts, he shouldn't have had the rifle pointed any place but down range while loaded, and pointed safely when not loaded. #2 Remington Mod 700s are notorious for Accidental fireings when the safety is on, or when it is released, or when the bolet is opened or closed on a live round. Many suits have been filed on Remington for this exact reason. I have seen this personally on two occasins, and know of several others as well. A friend of mine baught a new Mod 700 338 Win Mag rifle to take on a hunting trip we had planned for Alaska for Moose. He was standin on one side of a bogg and I on the other, just inside the tree line. This section of the bogg connected two drainages, and moose walked down this narrow strip of bogg to get from one drainage to the other. A large bull was walking down the middle of the bogg toward My friend's position, The guy slowly shouldered his rifle, and before the moose got to him, he slipped the safety to off..."BANG"! The moose whirled and was in the trees before my frien recovered form the shock. Luckily, I was not in the line of fire, because I was farther up the bogg!

That rifle did this twice on that trip, but my friend is a safe gun handeler, and never points his rifle at anything he doesn't intend shooting! The rifle went back to Remington,and his money was returned.

The best fix for the 700 is get rid of it, but barring that an after market trigger like a canjar, or Timmny for the 700 is the only fix if you intend keeping it. 99% percent of all ADs are opperator induced, but there are machanical failiers as well, and the Remingtons 700 is one that has that problem! I say 99% because in most cases the rifle is not, or shouldn't be loaded, but the only way a rifle works for it's purpose, is if it is loaded, and it certainly should not fire when the safety is pushed to the fire possition!

In my friend's case he only lost a shot at a Approx 70" Moose, but if I had been in line with that Accidental Discharge, it would have cost me a great deal!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Blair:

I agree with you about not carrying a rifle with a round in the chamber in the car. However, I don't agree about walking around in the bush with no round in the chamber. Things can happen fast. However, I would follow my PHs instructions in that regard.

Now see, if you guys all had Blasers, you wouldn't have to worry so much about this

Dave

No you sure wouldn't have to worry about that happening with a Blaser! All you'd have to worry about is getting run into the ground when the first two didn't get the job done, and you forget, or not have time to re-cock the damn thing after a re-load. That rifle doesn't re-cock it's self on breaking the rifle to re-load! Now the Krieghoff does re-cock when broken open after your first two shots. The K system I can live with but the Blaser belongs in the deer fields, not where dangerous game walks.

I agree that both the Blaser, and the Krieghoff double rifles are one of the safest system around, as far as being safe around your peers, But the Blaser, because it doesn't re-cock it's self on opening, is a liability in a close in fight with a mad animal with a couple holes punched in him from the first two shots that didn't get the job done. With the K-gun, you simply drop two fresh rounds in the chambers, close, and POP, POP! This has nothing to do with range safety, but is like haveing a simi auto, that you must be re-cocked after every two shots, in a street gun fight!

Mac:

I KNEW you would wade in here...

Hey, my R93 hold FOUR not two cartirdges! The Blaser and the TSX are the future. Come on in, the water is fine!

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Blair:

I agree with you about not carrying a rifle with a round in the chamber in the car. However, I don't agree about walking around in the bush with no round in the chamber. Things can happen fast. However, I would follow my PHs instructions in that regard.

Now see, if you guys all had Blasers, you wouldn't have to worry so much about this

Dave

Dave,

Once I get out of the truck to make a stalk, I will chamber a round if the PH says to do so, but I will carry the rifle with the bolt up, until I am up on the sticks when I will close the bolt and apply the safety.........

A friend of mine in Namibia had a client with a Blaser R93 nearly take his head off when sliding the cocking lever to fire...........he's not fond of them, and has them carried in conditon three...........

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Blair:

I agree with you about not carrying a rifle with a round in the chamber in the car. However, I don't agree about walking around in the bush with no round in the chamber. Things can happen fast. However, I would follow my PHs instructions in that regard.

Now see, if you guys all had Blasers, you wouldn't have to worry so much about this

Dave

No you sure wouldn't have to worry about that happening with a Blaser! All you'd have to worry about is getting run into the ground when the first two didn't get the job done, and you forget, or not have time to re-cock the damn thing after a re-load. That rifle doesn't re-cock it's self on breaking the rifle to re-load! Now the Krieghoff does re-cock when broken open after your first two shots. The K system I can live with but the Blaser belongs in the deer fields, not where dangerous game walks.

I agree that both the Blaser, and the Krieghoff double rifles are one of the safest system around, as far as being safe around your peers, But the Blaser, because it doesn't re-cock it's self on opening, is a liability in a close in fight with a mad animal with a couple holes punched in him from the first two shots that didn't get the job done. With the K-gun, you simply drop two fresh rounds in the chambers, close, and POP, POP! This has nothing to do with range safety, but is like haveing a simi auto, that you must be re-cocked after every two shots, in a street gun fight!

Mac:

I KNEW you would wade in here...

Hey, my R93 hold FOUR not two cartirdges! The Blaser and the TSX are the future. Come on in, the water is fine!

Dave

Dave, My mistake, I simply thought you were talking about the double rifle, but what I said about the Blaser double rifle still holds true. I've never even considered a Blaser bolt rifle,as a DGR because they are a pushfeed, and ugly! Besides I like double rifles for DGRs!