All of this is interresting, or was some years ago..I have seen many more failures with pushfeeds than with control fed rifles..I have had more failures with push feed rifles so I will always use a Mauser or pre 64 M-70 on dangerous game, and I agree to let each of you make your own choice....I have never had to fire a gun upside down, only monkeys do that and thats because they hang that way! but I sure have seen a lot of cartridges fall out on the ground while working the action at a run, and I have seen those flimsey extractors fail on more than one ocassion...so you can learn for yourself the hardway like I did, or accept my experiences and save yourself the grief, up to you....

Qustor,

I also sent an email to Dr. Don Heath, the editor of African Hunter, asking about any failures he has observed at either the PH & guides course or the proficiency examination at Rifa in Zimbabwe.

Don sez:

"The only push feeds that I have ever seen give problems were the Rem 700's in .416. We didn't have one on the proficiency exam this year but in ever previous year since 1996 we have had one either on the exam or at rifa that has broken it's extractor and left a case stuck in the chamber. Have also seen a round fall out of a Winchester .458 M70 push feed when the guy stepped around a tree, lifting the muzzle during a reload. Have tried to duplicate this and haven't been able to easily, and cannot do it at all with the M70's (push feeds) in .375.

I personally like the mauser claw but a decent push feed rifle is as reliable. I use a lee Enfield .303 often as a back up rifle on leopard."

I thought I would solicit Don for his real-world experience to complement Ray's post. The guys in the Profieiency Exam have a lot riding on that practical exam, and they tend to operate theie rifles "vigorously". Things break there when they might not in a more benign environment like being carried by a client hunter. It is typically very hot during the proficiency, this year some 120 degree fun was had.

I am also of the opinion that push feeds using detachable box magazines feed very reliably. For example I have fed solids through my Steyr ProHunter that were so blunt they would not feed through a CRF action without major alteration of the cartridge over all length.

The real lesson is to use your rifle in as realistic field practice as you can find, and see how you and it perform. I still recommend hunters take a rifle course at Gunsite (or an equivalent). Such realistic training can really elevate your adrenalin, and help you discover problems before you go hunting.

jim

My understanding is that a push feed rifle will not chamber when upside down or at odd angles. I tested this with one particular gun, a Remington 700 Safari in 375 h&h. I could not get it to fail. I turned it at all angles, shook it, banged the recoil pad on the shooting bench while chambering a round in the upside down or canted gun, and tried in a determined fashion to get it to fail to feed. This was with a single round in the magazine or a full magazine.

I couldn't get it to fail to feed. What am I misunderstanding here?

I did find that short stroking was a possibility. As a personal habit, I first stroke the bolt back until I feel the bolt stop, then push forward. It's part of repetitive practice specifically to minimize the possibility of a short stroke.

I would like any of your comments regarding techniques that make bolt action rifles as reliable as possible. Thank you.

I believe there are strong (mostly historical) preference for controlled round feeding. The art of the fine smiths have always been bestowed on the '98 mauser and later on the (especially) pre-64 M-70 and the art of riflemaking is as important to many of us as function.

While function must be without compromise in a "DG" rifle many believe the artist touch must also be obvious to the beholder and that artistry rarely is shown on a Remington, Sako, or weatherby rifle.

I own a pair of .375 H&H and a .404 Jeffery and all of them are works of art and all of them are controlled round.....(P-17, Mauser Magnum, and a 1999 Montana) but in all honesty none of them are more reliable than my 721 Remmy in .300 H&H.....a restocked and truly fine arm.

You have it summed up in the words.....short stroking.....

I'm with you in that the most important thing you can do is to practice working the bolt.....making sure that you open it completely and close it completely...do it fast and do it slow and do it often. Educate your self on the intimate workings and in the time you need to get off that second or even third shot at a disgrunteled Cape Buffalo you'll have not only the confidence in knowing your rifle well but you'll shoot better for it and the chances of short stroking will be zero.

I'll look foreward to other comments on this issue.

If you perform a search on this topic, you will find dozens of threads (and hundreds of posts) detailing the pros and cons of each system, and why people prefer one over the other (or not).

This gets asked here AT LEAST once a month.

George

GeorgeS:

That's why I made my post. I have read those posts and threads, but as far as I know, I'm the only poster to have actually tried to get a push feed gun to fail to feed. Every other thread I have seen on the subject simply assumes, apparently with second-hand information, that a push feed gun can fail to feed when upside down or canted.

I'm trying to find out if others have actually tried this and gotten the push feed to fail.

In the lore of hunting with handguns, I have found through experience that a lot of misinformation is repeated for decades as if it were true, and I wonder whether this push feed vs. controlled round feed is one of them.

It is, or it isn't. People are going to use what they always intended to use in the first place. It's human nature to do so.

George

CRF and pushfeed are constantly debated and I'm sure there's a tiny percent chance of a pushfeed failure that is feared and of course in a rifle for ornery/dangerous critters that is a point of great concern. Though I have heard of CRF's screwing up too, so any rifle must be tested to determine reliability.

In reality I think most pushfeeds are highly reliable as your little "test" seems to show, it's just the "what if" factor that leads many to CRF. I know my old push-feed M77 .458 feeds and ejects smooth as butter and is the most reliable and best fitting rifle I've ever owned - it shoots like a dream out to 200 yds with the factory iron sights. Personally I wouldn't hesitate carrying it against any critter but I dont blame anyone who would prefer CRF either.

The main point is... TEST your individual rifle thoroughly before taking it out and you'll have nothing to worry about.

I did a test a few months ago (dont remember the thread right now) and reported it here. I used a Rem 700 Mt. rifle in 30/06. I tried every way to make it jamb including opening and closing the bolt on a full magazine with the gun upside down with my left hand (I'm right handed), and completely emptying it without a hitch.

Now, I do understand the reasoning behind crf having owned guns and working on them for 40 years. When you hunt DG you dont want any screw ups . But, if I went on a DG hunt and I had a GOOD push feed that I was confident in, I wouldnt hesitate to use it....

Well guys, I've been underneath a 50# bull that was doing his best to do me in. The model 700 .458 was definitely upside down. In this situation or any other where the adrenaline is copiously flowing, I find it more likely to rip off the bolt stop as opposed to any 'short stroke".

Rich Elliott

Go to www.african-hunter.com and do a search on the subject. You'll get a good perspective on what the professional hunters profess as far as hunting dangerous game. I look at it this way, I'm in the military flying business and I know my craft when it comes to tactical aircraft and they (the PHs) know theirs when it comes to dangerous game and the preferred tool for taking same. jorge

I have tried getting my Sako to fail but other than by short stroking it or sometimes failing to pick a round out of the magazine, its worked fine.

I have often wondered what the alternatives to the CRF M98 were around in its hey day when it was gaining its reputation? Did push feeds even exist then? If so how reliable were they? Or even the levers of the day?

Regards,

Pete