Another side of the "Hunter/Outfitter/Deposit" issue.

An outfitter friend has a situation and is interested in your opinion.

This American hunter, a repeat client, had requested an extensive plains game hunt combined with a Captive bred Lion hunt in 2016. The client proposed a payment schedule which was agreeable to all and the payments came in on schedule until approximately $11,000 of the agreed $30,000 was paid in at year end 2015 then payment stopped and communication became spotty with the client.

The proposed Lion hunt had already become a non issue and a substitution of Cape Buffalo had been offered and agreed to IF Lion remained unavailable.

On June 27, 2016 [just before the scheduled July 11, 2016 hunt] the client wrote that he had been very ill for months and would not be able to do the scheduled hunt. The client did volunteer that a cancellation fee might be understandable at the late cancellation date.

A new quotation was requested for a plains game around the Cape Buffalo hunt and the $29,000 price was agreed to, and the previous deposit was carried forward to this new 2017 hunt date. One additional $1,100 payment was received and again by year end 2016 communication has essentially ceased regarding this scheduled 10 day, 2017 hunt.

So, The outfitter has a Cape Buffalo quota reserved for this hunter, again, the money is still held on deposit, but calls are not returned, emails, and texts are not answered, and given the recent history the outfitter wonders if the client is coming at all. The hunting dates and the Buffalo quota could be marketed now during the show season, but chances of selling either diminish as the hunting dates approach.

Facebook posts indicate that the client is still alive.

How should the outfitter handle this situation?

A. Wait to see if the client shows up, and keep some or all of the deposit if the hunter does not show up? [How much?]

B. Cancel the hunt, return some or all of the deposit, and re-market the dates and quota? [How much?]

C. Other ideas? Anyone?

Why doesn't the outfitter have you send a certified or registered letter to the client indicating that it is imperative for him to contact the outfitter within [__] calendar days to confirm the hunt otherwise the hunt will be remarketed and the client will be responsible for (i) any difference in the cost of the remarketed hunt versus the booked hunt, plus (ii) any other out-of-pocket costs incurred by the outfitter in postponing the trip from 2016 to 2017 and remarketing the hunt, with the balance of the deposit, if any, to be refunded. Just a thought.

My first question would be how did the first contract read and how did the amended contract read concerning cancellation and payment schedules? Of course that's assuming there was a contract. If there wasn't a contract this whole thing gets pretty muddy in a hurry. IMO after the registered letter is delivered and if there is still no further communication from the client to the outfitter I'd say the client looses his deposit. That would be unfortunate as it would seem the client just needs to let the outfitter know what he's up to and make a plan. From the OP's description of events it certainly seems the outfitter is more than willing to work with his client.

Mark

I think the first question that has to be addressed is whether there is a contract or not. If there is, the contract has to be followed. I think Mike is right. Under the circumstances communications should be via certified mail.

If there is no contact, put the client on notice via certified mail of what the outfitter intends to do unless the outfitter hears from the client and receives the balance due by some reasonable day certain.

Firstly, no contract for this/these third hunt.

(The standard contract in general use by the outfitter allows NO refund within 45 days of the hunt date) [when usually the entire hunt has been paid in advance. Or at least the 50 % requested up front.]

However a replacement hunter is allowed , and a reschedule of the hunt by mutual agreement is also allowed, and encouraged.


I feel the certified letter is the best first option, and am suggesting that go out ASAP.

Thanks for all your thoughts.

Les

ps. as someone noted, the outfitter is quite willing to work with the client, and still wishes to proceed with the hunt, if possible. A late cancellation or "no show" would create damages that could easily be avoided with communication.

This might be one of those occasions where the hunt is going to go south pretty quickly when the client shows up.

From what is posted, he is not giving this much consideration.

If I was the outfitter, I would return part of his money, and keep whatever was agreed on as non refundable.

We tend to tear an outfitter or pH apart when one considered to have done anything wrong.

We don't hear so much about the many terrible clients they have to deal with.

I might be wrong, but this looks like one of those hunts which might turn out to be what everyone has bargained on.

Actually Saeed, this was the ideal client - paid and didn't hunt. Doesn't get any better than that.

In many cases and this may be one, the outfitter has booked the buffalo with the clients money so that's gone...Does he bite the bullet or try to refund..The client seems to be in la la land and not much interested

This sort of thing need not be determined by the internet, many who make decisions without any real knowledge of the real facts, nor do many care...

I would suggest he handle his own business..just like any business should do.

One point I'll offer.

People know that Registered Mail is, almost without exception, bad news. They get a notice from the PO that there is a Registered Letter waiting and they have to go pick it up. In many cases, they don't even bother to pick it up. Who wants to go looking for bad news?

I always send important, must-get-to-addressee mail by courier. The courier will deliver it to a person and make a record of that.

Two points. First, the contract should have covered that.

As to Wannabe's comments, when I have the concern that a certified letter will not be claimed, I send it certified and a duplicate by regular mail, noting that on the letter. Most judges I've encountered have accepted that as evidence of receipt if the certified letter is returned and the regular mail copy is not.

I agree with this.

If the client has been ill for several months, then priorities change.

If he is financially well to do and does not miss the money that much but still cares about it, then it still goes down in the priority list depending on circumstances.

I would probably send a registered letter with a notice of cancellation and part refund. Then exercise the option if there is still no reply

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
This might be one of those occasions where the hunt is going to go south pretty quickly when the client shows up.

From what is posted, he is not giving this much consideration.

If I was the outfitter, I would return part of his money, and keep whatever was agreed on as non refundable.

We tend to tear an outfitter or pH apart when one considered to have done anything wrong.

We don't hear so much about the many terrible clients they have to deal with.

I might be wrong, but this looks like one of those hunts which might turn out to be what everyone has bargained on.

If he's posting on facebook try getting a hold of him there

So what if the outfitter finds out the hunter died?

The good news is that a direct mail, fax and pestering email campaign has made contact with the client. He is alive and getting well, or better anyway.

Continuing health and work issues will prevent taking up the previously quoted hunt, which will again be rolled over to 2018.

The outfitter now has time to market the vacated dates and the buffalo quota.

He appreciates all the advice and suggestions, and is confident that they will continue to communicate over the next year.

Les

Glad to see it work out for both the client and the outfitter.

I've been fortunate in that every Outfitter/PH I have hunted with have been very fair-minded individuals.

Having said that, I realize that if I ever got sick and backed out of a hunt because of that, I'm not sure I would expect any refunds, since I failed to live up to my part of the deal. JMO

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by LHowell:
The good news is that a direct mail, fax and pestering email campaign has made contact with the client. He is alive and getting well, or better anyway.

Continuing health and work issues will prevent taking up the previously quoted hunt, which will again be rolled over to 2018.

The outfitter now has time to market the vacated dates and the buffalo quota.

He appreciates all the advice and suggestions, and is confident that they will continue to communicate over the next year.

Les

Well now what am I supposed to do with all this boiling tar and dead birds?!!!

Sharpened my pitchfork and everything...

zambezi

it would seem the client for failing to keep everyone in the loop could forfeit his deposit and the outfitter could sell it reduced by that amount to get rid of it.

Well, here we go again.

The client has just recently been in contact regarding this rescheduled 2018 hunt, He first asked [on 10/12/2017] for an accounting of what he had paid in to date towards his hunt, previously a Lion hunt, now a Cape Buffalo hunt - originally scheduled in 2016, then 2017, now 2018.
This amount is $16,545 [totals provided to him on 10/17/2017] towards the scheduled, two hunter, 10 day Cape Buffalo & 9 plains game total of +/- $29,000.

He then proposed [on 10/23/2017] a 6 day hunt for he and his son to merely shoot up $16,000 value of plains game, with no Cape Buffalo. Due to time constraints, school schedules etc., with dates to be determined soon.

Now, he has decided that business reversals will prevent him from hunting at all, and he has asked for a return of his paid in $16,545.

What now do you think should the outfitter do?

-Return all, or some, of the money? How much? Split it 50/50?

-Keep it all as the standard contract [if there was one] would provide?

-any other choices?

Your thoughts will be much appreciated - any outfitter/booking agent comments, public or private, are of interest as well.

Les

quote:

Originally posted by LHowell:
The good news is that a direct mail, fax and pestering email campaign has made contact with the client. He is alive and getting well, or better anyway.

Continuing health and work issues will prevent taking up the previously quoted hunt, which will again be rolled over to 2018.

The outfitter now has time to market the vacated dates and the buffalo quota.

He appreciates all the advice and suggestions, and is confident that they will continue to communicate over the next year.

Les

If I was a repeat client? that would mean that I have a degree of trust in my outfitter,& if I was faced with a situation where I could not hunt,I would just expect my outfitter to settle it as fairly as possible,running a business has costs,I would not expect him to take a loss on my behalf,we all know the meaning of fairness,let the outfitter do the best that he can & explain it well,a contract is a good thing to have in hand but in the end? the facts will speak for themselves.

He shouldn’t return all the money he bent over backwards to accommodate the hunter at some expense to himself, he needs to figure out his cost, then talk to the hunter about it. The hunter is a returning hunter so some leeway maybe given but the outfitter need to be made whole also.

As he is a repeat client, and I would assume they know each other, they should discuss it and reach an agreement where the outfitter does not loose any money.

A repeat client doesn't necessarily make for friendship or good business practice, in the fact the old adage is don't go into business or do business with friends or family. It has a habit of going south more often than not.

In this case if I was the outfitter trying to run a business I would cover all my costs and fair loss of profit on those costs and return the balance and not do business with that client again. The client ill or not, unless completely unconscious, should have communicated immediately or had someone do this on his behalf. If the client doesn't place too much value on communication as seems to be the case then what sort of client is he likely to be on safari. The warning bells would have sound for me after the first debacle, you don't need these sort of people f...king you around and then quick to want their money back.

There is no way the outfitter should return the full amount. I'd expect him to keep at least half if I were the client. Of course, many would ask for a full refund knowing well that they don't deserve it.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
A repeat client doesn't necessarily make for friendship or good business practice, in the fact the old adage is don't go into business or do business with friends or family. It has a habit of going south more often than not.

In this case if I was the outfitter trying to run a business I would cover all my costs and fair loss of profit on those costs and return the balance and not do business with that client again. The client ill or not, unless completely unconscious, should have communicated immediately or had someone do this on his behalf. If the client doesn't place too much value on communication as seems to be the case then what sort of client is he likely to be on safari. The warning bells would have sound for me after the first debacle, you don't need these sort of people f...king you around and then quick to want their money back.

I am afraid I do not agree with you at all.

Most of our business is done with friends, and most of hunting is done with friends.

Trust goes both ways, and as long as both sides are honest, it works perfectly.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
A repeat client doesn't necessarily make for friendship or good business practice, in the fact the old adage is don't go into business or do business with friends or family. It has a habit of going south more often than not.

In this case if I was the outfitter trying to run a business I would cover all my costs and fair loss of profit on those costs and return the balance and not do business with that client again. The client ill or not, unless completely unconscious, should have communicated immediately or had someone do this on his behalf. If the client doesn't place too much value on communication as seems to be the case then what sort of client is he likely to be on safari. The warning bells would have sound for me after the first debacle, you don't need these sort of people f...king you around and then quick to want their money back.

I am afraid I do not agree with you at all.

Most of our business is done with friends, and most of hunting is done with friends.

Trust goes both ways, and as long as both sides are honest, it works perfectly.

I understand you Saeed and have observed (in your videos) the trust and friendship that you and your friends have when hunting so there are always exceptions and I'm sure there are others here who have similar good relationships in business and hunting with friends.

However the adage I speak of is a reality otherwise it would not have become a fairly well known and common adage. I'm sure you will know of examples in your dealings with people and we have certainly had a fair share of this here on AR where things have gone very wrong between people who thought they were on a good business footing or friendship.

The point I was making in this discussion was that a repeat client does not necessarily ensure a good business relationship or friendship and as it turns out it hasn't. Things have soured very much despite it seems the patience and best efforts of the PH to get a good outcome for both parties.

quote:

Originally posted by LHowell:
Now, he has decided that business reversals will prevent him from hunting at all, and he has asked for a return of his paid in $16,545.

Saw that coming the minute I read that the outfitter had AGAIN granted an extension of the dates. If this outfitter refunds all of the deposit, he truly has the patience of Job. He is either the worst or best businessman in the industry....but certainly not anywhere in the middle of that spectrum.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
A repeat client doesn't necessarily make for friendship or good business practice, in the fact the old adage is don't go into business or do business with friends or family. It has a habit of going south more often than not.

In this case if I was the outfitter trying to run a business I would cover all my costs and fair loss of profit on those costs and return the balance and not do business with that client again. The client ill or not, unless completely unconscious, should have communicated immediately or had someone do this on his behalf. If the client doesn't place too much value on communication as seems to be the case then what sort of client is he likely to be on safari. The warning bells would have sound for me after the first debacle, you don't need these sort of people f...king you around and then quick to want their money back.

I am afraid I do not agree with you at all.

Most of our business is done with friends, and most of hunting is done with friends.

Trust goes both ways, and as long as both sides are honest, it works perfectly.

I understand you Saeed and have observed (in your videos) the trust and friendship that you and your friends have when hunting so there are always exceptions and I'm sure there are others here who have similar good relationships in business and hunting with friends.

However the adage I speak of is a reality otherwise it would not have become a fairly well known and common adage. I'm sure you will know of examples in your dealings with people and we have certainly had a fair share of this here on AR where things have gone very wrong between people who thought they were on a good business footing or friendship.

The point I was making in this discussion was that a repeat client does not necessarily ensure a good business relationship or friendship and as it turns out it hasn't. Things have soured very much despite it seems the patience and best efforts of the PH to get a good outcome for both parties.

Despite what outfitters and guides like it or not, though, they are in the entertainment business, which is different from most other businesses. Repeat and happy clients are the ones that outfitters and guides use as references for other hunters considering to hunt with them. Think of all the people you have told about your hunts/experiences and hunts that you've sold for guides/outfitters simply by speaking highly of them, whether with your friends or by writing a report online for them. Maybe you didn't even know about it. The same can be said for negative press. Anyone booked a hunt with Blair Worldwide lately? Things come up and illnesses happen, but that's the purpose of a contract, to spell out how someone could possibly get their money back when these things come up. Then no one really has a gripe when the terms are already spelled out. I wouldn't be upset if I was the client and the outfitter covered his costs with whatever amount of the deposit was used for that. Obviously there was some amount of trust there since he sent a deposit without a contract. Things will turn out OK for both parties but I think
The client would be remiss to figure he was getting 100% of his deposit back.

I don’t mean to be harsh, but in my view, if the hunter is still alive, then he’s lost his deposit.

Put another way, the hunter is at the outfitter’s mercy and has put himself, by his own actions and inaction, right and squarely there.

If I were the outfitter, I would try to do some justice. That is, I would need to cover my own damages, but I would feel obliged to refund any excess.

Even though it seems to have worked out, my sense is that it won’t be a lasting solution.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by LHowell:
Now, he has decided that business reversals will prevent him from hunting at all, and he has asked for a return of his paid in $16,545.

Saw that coming the minute I read that the outfitter had AGAIN granted an extension of the dates. If this outfitter refunds all of the deposit, he truly has the patience of Job. He is either the worst or best businessman in the industry....but certainly not anywhere in the middle of that spectrum.

First a Lion safari, then Buffalo and then a few days plains game. Finally a cancellation.

I would be entertaining a tire kicking tax on all this.

As a client, I have to agree that the hunter is not entitled to his entire deposit back. A mutually agreeable amount should be reached. If the client is not so inclined, then he may end up with nothing.