I know this will spark a heated discussion but I will take a shot at my expressing my opinion. I recently just got the new SCI magazine and just did not like several of the articles that were full of brags about long shots. Especially, Mark Watts. Would not look at his video if given to me. His entire article is annoying about how long the shot is, and wham, one shot. Usually, people that have to write that way are insecure anyway. His is not the only one, there are others. My africa that I enjoy is all about the hunt, the stalk, and getting into reasonable range to make the shot. Not an issue of range and bragging about it later.

Recognizing that some game like sheep, coues, elk, etc. can require some long shots which I love. Africa, however does not and this was simply a set up for an article. He even calls this Plan B as it looked like he would not get a lion. He did get a really nice lion though and at a respectable range although most would have liked it closer. This to me is along the same vein as Mark Sulllivan which is all geared for the reader or viewer rather than enjoying the hunt in Africa. At least Sullivan gets close. Someday he will get real close, close, close.

Just cuious what you guys think about this type of approach to African hunting. Much more experience out there than mine and each to his own but to me this just not the way to do it.

Marc Watts

Everyone has to have a gimmick to sell their product. His is long range shots. Not my cup of tea and I would never buy any of his videos. Just as bad as watching Jim Zumbo shoot a kudu at a waterhole the other day on TV. Not why I go to Africa, nor the way I want to hunt Africa.

Let them hunt the way they will. Me, I would rather not take 500 yard shots nor shoot over water.

Regards,

Terry

Terry, same page. I also want to point out my intent was not to disparage any other hunter. We must all stick together as there are more of them than us. Just that I think this makes us look like what they want to portray us as.

I forgot to mention that I am really surprised that Peter Chipman allowed him to take those shots. All PH's I know just would not have allowed it.

I think part of all of our role as ethical hunters is to be responsible and "teach" the public if it will listen what we are really all about. I live in Michigan and just this winter some local redneck shot a local buck that many would look at, feed, etc. The guy was tame and this guy literally poached him and let him lay. This is not a hunter yet the public sees him as a hunter just as they do Sullivan or Watts.

We would all be very well served to step out of our shoes occasionally and see how we play to others who have no knowledge but can be converted either way.

We are the custodians of our own image.

Different strokes for different folks. The guy is selling product, and is going to do what it takes (within the law) to sell his product.

There are other PHs who instigate charges where none are necessary, in order to sell his product.

Vote with your wallet, and do not support their enterprise if their methods offend you.

As for your local hunter who shot the deer others considered tame, if it was shot within the regulations, it's legal. If you don't like it, get off your high horse and don't send him a Christmas card.

George

If I wanted to introduce someone to African hunting, I would not let them see Sullivan's nor Watts' videos.

Let them watch the 8 African episodes of Dangerous Game that was shown on OLN. Those videos show what it takes to hunt Africa. A lot of walking and blown stalks (shifting wind, etc.). Not all the shots were perfect "one shot kills". That is real Africa, or the best that it can be portrayed in a 30 minute TV show.

Speaking of Africa on TV, did anyone see the Tracks Across Africa show on crocodile? Did you notice that the PH made an almost simultaneous shot on the crocs? Even when Boddington shot his croc, the PH shot the croc a split-second after Boddington shot. If that is me, I'm turning to the PH and saying. "Why the f*ck are you shooting my croc?"

Regards,

Terry

I did see it and I wondered if maybe he was just following directions...

Mike

BogBear,
I sense your outrage -maybe reading you wrong?

I would wholeheartedly agree that close shots, particularily on DG is far more prefarable than long shots.
That being said , it is my hunt or yours so to speak.
What matters is that the hunter gets what he paid for - he has to look at "his trophy" ,he cannot lie to himself later on.
I understand there are circumstances where you cannot get closer than 200-300y, even to african buff.

I am not stating that this is what may be desired. So if faced with that scenario , dependant how spooky the game is, how much coverage is available to enable a stalk etc
You can clearly then walk away, feeling you didn't feel the danger of the DG hunt - or if you like to bring that trophy home,you take the long shot

Understand, I agree with you as to what " I prefer" where I differ is in the hard judgements of others.

It is their hunt, they paid for it, let them have what they feel comfortable with.

A unt is a very personal experience, a beautiful memory.

It is difficult to be tolerant to others when they dont cherish what you do.

In my opinion it is perfectly alright to say that their hunting style is not for you.

I disagree when the statement goes on, saying that these are not hunters but snipers or shooters.


I say, keep your judgement to yourself,be tolerant of others that for their own reason do what they do.

"Get as close as you can get, the get ten yards closer" I don't recall who said that, but he was a hunter.

I don't see the point of long range shooting when you can cut the distance with a good stalk. If you've already gotten as close as you can and ten yards closer then its up to you to decide if you take the shot or find another opportunity. I do know that the stalk is a huge part of the satisfaction of the hunt for me.

JPK

I think the important question to as yourself is, What is my personal perception of ethical hunting? For me it is giving an animal a equal chance to escape if I foul up. It is all about testing my skills against the animals skils. I like to get as close as possible. One must also take the area in consideration. In the Kalahari and certain parts of Namibia you are very lucky if you can come within 150 m from your prey. In denser areas it is a lot easier to get up close.

I like it to stalk as close as possible, it gets the adrenalin pumping and for me that is the thrill of the hunt.

When I hunt with clients it is their hunt and they decide when they want to take the shot. I cannot tell them to get closer if they feel comfortable with the shot.

We all have our own opinions on ethical hunting, but my personal opinion is that you do not shoot at 300 or 500 yards, that is sniping

Spend two seconds on his website and you know he's an idiot.

Look at the "Mark Watts" link to his Bio. It has a picture of him approaching a downed cape buffalo almost head on. I know this picture is staged but still makes him look like an idiot, and another good picture for "What not to do"

George S, you are not reading clearly. First, the guy shot the deer inside of a 6ft fence, without permission, people from all around came to feed the herd of deer, and as I clearly said, HE LET HIM LAY which is unethical as a hunter. The deer was wasted due to this person. I only used this as a recent example of how some people that portray themselves as hunters give the rest of us bad names. I am not on a high horse but your comments really puzzle me.

quote from http://www.sabletrailproductions.com/

"The video includes two 300-yard shots, two 400-yard shots along with the 503- yard kill shot! Marc teams up once again with famed PH Peter Chipman and award-winning video photographer Emanuel Kapp who captures all the breathtaking drama in real time ."

there is drama...

For me 250yrds is absolute max. The first animal I ever tried a longer shot on - a reedbuck, I wounded but luckily finished within a minute of so. Some really experience hunters can pull off 300 yrds shots, perhaps a little longer buti would say very very few!

I once saw a group of PH candidates (experienced hunters) shooting an Impala life-size target at 300 meters off a bench....I would say out of about 10 shooters only perhaps 3 or 4 made one shot kills! OFF A BENCH!!!(most had .308 or .30-06). Many of us are very poor at estimating distance and know our trajectories/windage effects.

If you cannot get closer, you are either lazy, a poor hunter or risking botching a humane kill, which you as a hunter should strive to deliver. 500yrds is bullsh*t! Plain and simple! You are proving nothing as a hunter and seriously, even in the open plains areas like kalahari, OFS, Karoo etc etc you can almost always get within 250 yrds...if you can't try again....its called hunting and stalking!!!

I agree.

But I think Fay is a full of it lefty with so hard a bent in his veiws that its rediculous.

JPK

In my limited experience anyone going to Africa should put in a far amount of practice then they should be able to handle a shot of under 300 yds if you could get a good rest. As for judgeing the distance ask th Ph thats what he gets paid for. Also use a rifle that wont kick your brains out and cause you to flinch get the trigger adjusted so you dont have to yank it. I wouldnt shoot over 300yd and I really like to get as close as I can but I know I can handle farther if I need to.

First time I ever saw Mark Watts in a film was last night on Boddingtons video.

I noted he did not take his earplugs out when approaching a potentially wounded leopard. If I was approaching a potential wounded leopard the last thing I would worried about his my hearing.

Also the stupid looking muzzle break on the rifle. He is a big guy, and recoil should be no problem to him.

Muzzle breaks on safari really are at the expense (of hearing) of everyone else in the safari crew.

his dollar..... his safari.... he has every right to do as he wishes. just because a few of you see no thrill in his style of hunting does not make it "his style of hunting". did you ever stop for a second and imagine what he thinks of "your style of hunting".
Also it is about time the romantics admit that not every buff or elephant is killed at archery range.

quote:

Originally posted by kayaker:
If you cannot get closer, you are either lazy, a poor hunter or risking botching a humane kill, which you as a hunter should strive to deliver. 500yrds is bullsh*t! Plain and simple! You are proving nothing as a hunter and seriously, even in the open plains areas like kalahari, OFS, Karoo etc etc you can almost always get within 250 yrds...if you can't try again....its called hunting and stalking!!!

**careful there Kayaker your preaching to a crowd whom endear Texas Heart Shots as ethical for unwounded game! Rakeing shots with a 458 Lott on buffalo is the norm for a few of these guys whom never heard of ethics or going home empty handed.

I agree that ethics is perpectival and opens a literal can of subjective worms. I think we can compare this to canned lions if we use that logic...its your safari, your money, do what you like. I personally have no time for canned lions or the occurence thereof, I think it is repulsive BUT, as someone who has studied/worked in the conservation field, canned lions are actually better ITO conservation, than shooting wild males, so really, as I said before- 'cattle with claws'. If you want to shoot one drugged and hog-tied, pegged to the ground, go ahead, I won't support it though. This is similar to the longe range debate. I think it really does take something from the experience. If you can reliably pull off 500 yrd shots, go ahead (who can though, can this Watts guy always pull it off?) BUT there comes atime when we can't just revert to saying everything is relative to your own desire and perspective or else we would live in anarchy, terrorists have their perspective of ethics too...who's to say they are wrong? Its our perspective of morals that determines that, not a set universal law...well you see we do agree on some common sense don't we?

Its a multi-dimensional debate that will spark fervour and fuel passions!

Fay...well I don't agree with absolutely everyhting he says all the time but we can't always belive our role models and heroes without criticism all the time. That would be foolish blind acceptance and lack or thought wouldn't it? For the most part, I buy into his 'lefty' stance barring a few issues. His crusade is necessary and is bearing great fruit ITO data collective, qualitative research and action.

Just remember.....the anti gun/ anti-hunters are watching ethics closley. No, we don't need to pander to their every whim but we also don't live in some secluded world on another planet, we live together and sometimes compromise is needed, not apathy or defeatism, just a little compromise!

Enough of my 'lefty' stance...! cheers
Brian

Is it sniping if you are in open terrain and the animal is looking back at you 300 yards plus? I promise you when I put on a stalk for over 2 hours on springbok and hartebeest, I got as small as I could and still got busted. I hated that we couldn't get closer, but had confidence in my equipment to make a good shot. My attitude has always been to shoot everything at archery range where possible, but I believe many times hunting is a judgement call on the situation that presents itself. Most of us have let numerous animals go for various reasons, once in a while we make the decision to shoot even when it wasn't the best situation. Heck we even get lucky and take the animal sometimes or most of the time. Sometimes its very easy to get on the soapbox when we haven't been in the situation or are looking from a different perspective. How many outfitters and PH's push the hunter to shoot because from their perspective its a clear shot. I've had it happen several times, the guides are excited and they may even have confidence in the hunter's shooting abilities. Just my thought's...

"Get as close as you can, then get ten yards closer", if you've done this, hey!, you're hunting, even if you're not at twenty paces.

JPK

The bottom line is a lot of hunters are not good shots. They do not spend the time or money need to learn what there rifle is able to do. They don't learn to read conditions, or how wind ,distance, light and temp effect the sight settings. Oten enough that same hunter will bitch about shots taken from a truck, yet dismount walk away 50 yards and set up shooting sticks for a 100 yard shot on a animal the size of a cow elk. I don't see the differance! As a hunter you owe it to the game to know your limits. You owe it to your PH
to know what your rifle is able to do and to be able to perform when he is able to get you with in range.
It is his throphy also(he has invested his time and money and developed the skills needed to get you there.)
You owe it to yourself to be able to do both! If you need sticks you should get closer if possible, you should
train until you are able to take the larger plains game off hand to 200 meters +. The ability to do so will make your hunt more enjoyable. When you can do it at 200 work at 300. Then when the buff of a life time steps out at 75 yards you won't need to waste time setting up sticks and wil be 99% sure of getting the job done.

Sorry to get on the soap box, but I just spent a week on a black powder hunt for deer with my oldest friend.
He took 3 deer all under 70 yards with a scoped Omaga. No shot landed closer than 6 inches to his point of aim.
To empty his gun he fired a a playing card size piece of bark at 40 yards and his shot was six inches wide of the mark. He then commented that it was inproper to sight my rifle in for 150 yards and to even think about a 200 yard shot. With my 50 cal inline offhand I can shoot a 3 shot group about 4" in dia centered on a 8" target. Some guys will never get it.

Thank God I shoot better than I spell or type.

JD

While I think it is someone's signature, which means I probably won't get the quote right, I believe it was Jeff Cooper who said, "The distance the shot was made is the measure of the hunter, the closer the shot indicating the better hunter."

quote:

Originally posted by cats:

Rakeing shots with a 458 Lott on buffalo is the norm for a few of these guys whom never heard of ethics or going home empty handed.

What, precisely, the hell is wrong with a raking shot with a .458 Lott? Using premium softs or solids, penetration will most easily measured in feet, not inches. I’ve made several of these shots, and never missed putting in-and-out holes in the heart. Am I missing something?

Hi guys. This is Marc Watts. I've enjoyed reading the comments on this board and let me set the record straight on three points.
A) My long shots are not intended to encourage or advocate this style of hunting. If long range shooting is not your bag, don't do it. My videos feature them because that is what works for me. Whether it's a dik-dik from 50 yards or a zebra from 500, don't ever pull the trigger unless you're certain you can kill it with one shot. That's all I'm saying.
B) The hearing protection I use enhances my hearing. I wear electronic form-fitted ear plugs that block damaging soundwaves from reaching my ear drums while enhancing sounds in the bush at the same time. So for the gent who questioned why I have them in my ears upon walking up to the leopard now you know.
C) As for the fellow who pointed out the staged still photo of me walking up to the downed buff on my bio page. All I can say sir is, "You're absolutely right." That photo has no place on my website and it has been removed.

But please let's draw the line at calling people names. An "idiot" I am not. Bob Harper is not a "bastard." You're entitled to your criticism which I believe is healthy for all us video producers. But remember we have enough enemies on the other side and don't need to make them within our own hunting community. And don't always go by what you read. If you wanna try my videos, buy them. Don't stand outside the fence and lob grenades. I'll offer any buyer a full money back guarantee if you're not satisfied with the video, for any reasons. No questions asked. If anyone wants to question my methods, or rip me apart you can also feel free to call me at the office 312-226-4047. I'm receptive to any daily chit chat on hunting as some of you who have called or email me know.
Cheers & Yours in the Fight,
Marc Watts

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
The bottom line is a lot of hunters are not good shots. They do not spend the time or money need to learn what there rifle is able to do. They don't learn to read conditions, or how wind ,distance, light and temp effect the sight settings. JD

Well said, JD.

As you can see by my screen name, I am a competitive shooter, as well as a hunter. At my club we have some semi-formal matches for hunting rifles, and the level of bad shooting that I have seen is appalling.

Thanks for adding your 'justification' Marc and entering into this ethics fray that was started by yourself, I guess!!
You do make a good case, I aggree with you but still maintain that many hunters watching your videos need to know about why you chose to take these 'risky' shots...perhaps explaining this would be good. I believe hunting videos have a big influence on less experienced hunters and it wouldn't be ideal to have heaps of people running around 'trying' to drop game at half a kilometer.

Its like the Sullivan videos - I meet hunters all the time who think an average buffalo needs 10 .577 bullets to slow it down or that all African game is tough as nails and an impala will laugh off a shot from a .300 mag. It kind of distorts the reality of the mojority of situations?

Thanks for the input though, and you calm, gentlemanly like reaction to the name calling!

I think that people hunt to enjoy the experience differently. Some up close, some at long range. I enjoy Coues deer at 400 yards.
Some people don't, and want to be in a treestand.

I know that in the Kalahari where there is not much to hide behind but grass clumps at the top of a dune, the shots are very far. Other places in Africa you can stalk much closer.

I think the real rub here is when people say their way is the "best" or "only" way.

Todd

Classy response Marc. I think I'll try one of your videos while at Dallas. Any filmed exclusively in the Luangwa Valley?

Kayaker takeing a long shot is proper, if has a trained marksman you know your shot will strike a clean killing blow. There are many hunters who aren't sure of that at 100 yards. Is it any less of a stunt to have to sneak to within 15 yards of dangerous game in order to insure a killing shot ( often putting lives at risk). I am willing to bet this stalk in closer style got started because PH's got tied of chaseing wounded & pissed off DG becaues there clients could not shoot. ( I know that was a little dramatic, I wanted to make the point). In my mind skills as a stalker or no more or no less important than skills as a marksman.

In june of 05 I hunted Namibia I craweled 75 yards through stickers to be able to make a killing shot on a oryx from about 80 yards, I craweled over a 100 yards to make a killing shot on a eland from 150. I crawled closer because a killing shot did not present it self sooner( because of chest high cover and a rocky out cropping).

On the same hunt I took my first shot on a kudu at over 350, a Zebra at 300. I followed up with additional hits on the run before both animals had a chance to go down. I took a blue wildebeest at 240 and a black at 270
no additional shots need. I had a clean miss on a zebra at close to 400 because my Ph did not understand my range finder, I took his rangeing as gospel even though I pretty much new he was wrong ( He was about 150 yards off, I was not use to shooting such large animals and did not trust my training.) I also passed on a monster Kudu (MY first was a 53'' this one may have gone 56"or 58") He was acroos a valley on the next hill about 400 feet higher than we were. My range find was good on deer size animals to 350 and other surfaces to 800. I figured him at 400 or 500 yards up hill. We waited for a hour for him to move closer or allow us a chance to get closer. He moved off instead. I place a shot at a large bolder next to where he was standing.
With my best guess on hold over and allowing for wind I was 2 foot low and a foot right.I knew my 375 was not up to the task. All my shots other than the last were taken off hand no sticks. I shot 10 or so rimfire shil matches a year and a couple of Highpower shil matches a year. all shots are fired offhand. I send thousands of 22 rounds down range in pratice. When I started I had trouble killing 5 out of 40 targets now I shoot in the high 20's or low 30's when in good form. Anyone can learn to shoot fairley well if willing to invest the time money and study. Its good fun and a great way to pass time between hunting seasons.

Thank god I shoot better than I spell or type!

JD

It occurs to me that each of goes to Africa for slightly different (and very personal) reasons. For those that insist on close-in hunting as the most enjoyable form - I'm with you. Love archery and double rifles.

But it's not the only way to enjoy hunting and not the only way to ethically hunt. True, it's not gonnna be much fun to shoot an elephant at 200 yards, at least not for me. Doesn't mean it's wrong, though.

Last May I hunted with a couple of Aussies that were phenomenal shots. Both had 30-378s with muzzle breaks Really not very popular to be around without ear protection. But could those boys shoot. One of them shot an eland at 550 measured METERS !! Somehow that doesn't feel quite right, but I have to salute their shooting skill. Oh yeah, they could also hunt - lots of traipsing around through the bush, played a bit with a black mamba (!), and great stalks on a bushbuck and a second eland.

Overall, kind of mixed feelings, but I recognize that there is no one kind of hunting to endorse, except that which we believe to be ethical. I too liked Mark Watts response and will now buy his video in Dallas.

Oh yeah, anyone ever see the video on hunting Marco Polo (and related) sheep? GREAT long range shooting, and no one can slight them on hunting skill or endurance. So, for that venue at least, the long shots feel right.

Above all, let's not fall into personal criticisms of each other while giving our views.

Love the response made Mr. Watts. The computer keyboard is sometimes the most common way of "sniping" there is. Not everyone has the same shooting ability, in the end it's an individual choice and the responsibility of hunter or hunter and guide to be realistic on a clean shot. How many of us have botched a gimme shot and then made a shot of a lifetime shortly after? Someone can ask the very much alive,but slightly deaf oryx I missed at 40 yards(I didn't make the same mistake twice on his compadre thank goodness). Myself, I'll just continue to practice in simulated hunting positions until the next time I find myself afield.

Shoot at game long and often enough and you get a very good idea of what you're going to kill.

I find I spend more time getting comfortable if I have that time and more time waiting for a perfect head up broadside if the time is available.

Because I stalk a lot I know from the situation and the body language of the animal when I have that time.