quote:

Originally posted by cats:
Don try contacting Phil at his site go-on-safari.com I know he is taking archers for buff this year and I'm booking in Nov. for '06 with my bow which is a 78# @ 28 1/2" Big Horn recurve pushing a Zwickey 2 blade BH.

cats

Oh, just like wynnwood.

How's that ing going 500grs? Nothing better to do since you gave away your skin mag?

cats,

There are legal requirements and ethical requirements. There's a reason most recurve shooters use 95-100# bows for Cape buffalo - and it's not because they are pleasant to shoot.

I reckon I'll just say that I think you aren't "using enough gun" and leave it at that.

nice things ethics are, everyone has their own set of them. To each their own I say!

It's next to impossible to get a trad bow that a human can a shoot that will produce 80ft# of KE.

Most modern recurves can shoot a 8.5/8 gr. per # of draw arrow around 200ft. per second. To get 80ft. lbs the draw wt. for a recurve would be well into the 100+ range. It's hard enough to hold & shoot accurately with 80# let alone 100#. (remember with a recurve one holds the full wt. of the draw unlike a compound)

There have be plenty of Cape Buff and Aussie Water Buff taken with slow heavy arrows shoot from 80# bows that did noty have 80 KE.

Of course they were shooting at a Double Rifle distence like 41 yrds!

I believe Monty Browning killed his Cape Buff at 12 yrds with a fiberglass fishing arrow in Moz.

Distence is the difference between hunting a Buff with a Compound vs. Trad.

Yeah, but was Monty pulling 78#x28.5"???

9 grains/lb is 'way too light for Cape buff from a trad bow. 15 grains/pound is more like it.

The 1400 grain Muzzy carbon fish arrow is a good starting weight for a trad bow on Cape Buff - at 162 fps it makes 80 ftlb KE. The fiberglass ones like Monty used also weigh near 1400 grains (bare shaft) when full length. I read that his arrow weighed 1500 grains, so he must have shortened the shaft before adding a big head.

Don why is it i get the feeling if you chose to hunt with a gun it would need to be 500 grs pushed out of a .50" barrel

cats,

I like a 416 Rem for buff. 400 grains at 2350 fps.

I'm considering going after one with a bow. I won't decide until I find out whether my 'nads shrivel after I get close to 'em and try one with a rifle! That will also let me evaluate how close I'll be able to get. My max range has never exceeded 35 yards with a bow - and I like 25 a whole lot better.

If I use a bow I will use the best setup I can pull without shaking. I have a year to get better than my present 80-85# capability, but since I'm already getting 96-98 ft-lbs (20% above the accepted minimums) I feel pretty good about the capabilities of my gear already.

I have a friend that shoots stick and string, and I used to shoot one back before compounds were useful, so I know what they can and cannot do. I could only use a recurve up to 58# even when I was young and strong, so I would find your 78# bow unshootable.

Ed Ashby was a trad bowhunter, and a great proponent of the sport. He was involved in the studies that got bowhunting approved in RSA, from whence it spread in Africa. He claims that momentum rules the roost on penetration and that you need .57 pound-seconds of momentum to be ethical hunting animals up to Zebra. If you stretch that rule to include buffalo (and I would not) then you'd need at least a 900 grain arrow at 143 fps. I like Monty's answer better still: he used a 1500 grain arrow at 113 fps for .75 pound-seconds of momentum. A number that Ashby and company would probably applaud.

What kind of arrow are you planning to shoot at a Cape Buff? What speed can you get on it?

Depends what is flying best from my recurve at the time I have used Carbon Express and Eastons (as well as Port Oxford Cedar for the last 40 years)
I have shot Carbon Express thru bull moose breaking ribs going in and leaving with pass thrus. As well as shooting several elk with Eastons over the years with the Zwickey BH. I do not care for expandables over deer size game.
Let us face a fact or two here. 1600# of muscle and bone is 1600# of muscle and bone. Anyone whom has cut up an adult Alaskan moose can attest to a mountain of shoulder muscle, not to mention ribs of considerable size . I'm talking Alaskan bull moose not those little critters called Shiras down in the southern Rockies way of Utha or the puny grunts in Norway/Sweden I'm sick of hearing people make the comment "...well a buff is so much tougher than a moose....etc" How many of those same people have stuck a shaft into anything even a rabbit? Yet they continue to claim an arrow just is not capable of killing any dangerous game animal...BS plain 'n simple . I will cede that unless in full rut they are not of the temparment of a cape buff. Yet one avid poster to AR has comment that an American Bison is the toughest animal in the world...know what I agree ( one of the few things I agree with him on) Bison bulls can easily toss a full grown horse over their shoulder, rider included. Yet EVERY year tons of bison meat are collected with an arrow shaft.
These buff are not Sherman tanks!The old late 1800's an early 1900s need for a 500 gr bullet from a rifled barrel the size of a shotgun stuffed with a coffe can of BP just is not needed anymore. If someone wants to use a caliber/rifle steeped in tradition fine...hell I use a bow and arrow, that's what I do. A well placed BH will kill any animal that walks. If someone hasn't the nads to get in archery close and drive a shaft at a frontal cape buff's chest fine...use an old BP cartridge or a 458 Lott. or go shoot an ele in a hip joint as he runs off it's their $$ not mine. But for my $$ unless the Tanz govt. says I can't I will use my 78# @28.5" recurve most likely flinging a wooden or fibeglass shaft tipped with a Zwickey, it has dropped everyuthing I've ever shot it into from a rabbit up to Alaskan moose and it will kill a cape buff.

Why don't you defer from pontificating until after you get back from your planned trip?

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
If someone hasn't the nads to get in archery close and drive a shaft at a frontal cape buff's chest fine...

I certainly hope hope the PH gets that archery close frontal chest shot on tape, so your survivors can't sue him.

Vaya con Dios,

What happened to the filter capability?

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
Don try contacting Phil at his site go-on-safari.com I know he is taking archers for buff this year and I'm booking in Nov. for '06 with my bow which is a 78# @ 28 1/2" Big Horn recurve pushing a Zwickey 2 blade BH.

cats

So Phil is going to take you hunting even after he tossed you from his site for being a lying POS? Better not get out in front of him.

quote:

9 grains/lb is 'way too light for Cape buff from a trad bow. 15 grains/pound is more like it.

Don - You missed my point. Too get a decent speed up....200fps.... you need to be at 8.5/9 grm. per # of draw with trad gear.(my 70% recuve will shoot 200FPS w. a 600gr, arrow) This was refering to attempting to reach that "magic" 89ft.# of KE.

A friend of my from the Bowsite was with Monty, that arrow he shot was most likey going 120 fps.

As you know KE is a speed senstive equasion. Which doesn't take monetium and drag into concideration.

And Yes I agree a heavier arrow 850-900+ is needed...thats till flys straight.

quote:

The 1400 grain Muzzy carbon fish arrow is a good starting weight for a trad bow on Cape Buff - at 162 fps it makes 80 ftlb KE. The fiberglass ones like Monty used also weigh near 1400 grains (bare shaft) when full length. I read that his arrow weighed 1500 grains, so he must have shortened the shaft before adding a big head.

Don - Have you ever shoot a 1400 gr. arrow from a 80 recurve?.....That arrow is going to drop aq 1'+ at 20 yrds.

I'm shooting 880 gr, maple arrows from my 85# bow ans they are dropping 3" @ 20 yrds.

The down stide of VERY heavy arrows is loss of trajectory. Whichof course cam be eliminated by stepping-up...

3" drop at 20yards from a point blank sight in?

GTR

Mick If I've been booted from Phil's site it's news to me and HIM! I just posted a message there about our upcomming booking.
AHHHHHH you're wrong once again!

DonG while at Phil's site ask HIM which shot angle he prefers for archers to use.
Hint: exact opposite of the "raking Texas Heart" shot so beloved by the 500gr crowd. cats

Forrest: Because the gentleman asked me a question, which I answered. Didn't realize you were in the conversation.
Apparently you're of the type that is leary of getting archery close to a buff without your cannon. Or you've little experience with archery gear. Or both.
Yes I do hope to have the hunt on mini DVD and if I am successful I will only be too happy to upload it for viewing. cats

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
Mick If I've been booted from Phil's site it's news to me and HIM! I just posted a message there about our upcomming booking.
AHHHHHH you're wrong once again!

You know I did just go over there and guess what? No 'cats'. No Wynwood.

There is a 'Washington' that registered after Wynwood was tossed and guess what? Same IP as Wynwood, and you. Who'd of thought?

Of course, Phil is in Tanzania since mid July.

Lying POS. Still are.

quote:

Originally posted by GTR:
3" drop at 20yards from a point blank sight in?

GTR

I'm sorry I just that was confusing. My prefered arrow weight to keep fast & straight is 725 gr.s for that bow. I do feel a 725 gr, arrow fling straigfht at 2oofps is pretty effective.

I shoot instinctive so there is no real "Sight in". However, the drop is noticble when you 1st change to the heavier arrow...untill your brain compinsates. Or if you shoot a 3 arrow group with one arrow heavier.

Who was the outfitter & Ph on this hunt?

Are you referring to the original thread or what? This thread has been so many times I'm confused

Do I get a prize for guessing the colsest to the spread??? Just joking.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Ok everyone.
I have gotten the details of the hunt and equipment.

The Hunter is Dan Friedkin

Dan used a 180 grain German Kinetics broad head, on a 600 grain double butted aluminum shaft.

The bow used was a Bow Tech pulling 93 lbs.

The bull ran about 200 yards and then went down with the single arrow in its shoulder.

The arrow actually broke off when it fell and Dan inserted the fletching to indicate the position of the first shot. The arrow penetrated to the far side of the ribcage and stopped there.

4 other arrows were used for insurance once it was down – but the first one was fatal.

This lone bull was initially spotted feeding and moving slowly into the wind – in medium cover grass and scrub whistling thorn. He was stalked and finally taken as he turned broadside at a range of 41 yards. From there he ran out about 200 yards and died in the open plain you see in the photo.

The trophy field measured a total of 122 1/8†points on the SCI measurement system –
93 inches on the front curve tip to tip with 14 3/8†and 14 6/8†bosses.

Now for the "shocking" part of the measurements, the spread of this fantastic bull was just a tad over 40 inches 40 5/8 to be exact!
He must have had a really....... "narrow skull"

Sorry, Mich. Thanks for posting the information.

Bows will kill buffalo cleanly, but you do need to have everything right. Its unfortunate that some countries have decided to use KE as a basis for minimum requirements, in my experience and those of others it is useless for determening how well a archery set up will do. KE gives to much weight to speed, which is why compound bows do better. In the real world, its the heavy well tuned arrow, with the right head the does the job. Monty's bow was putting out something like 42#'s of KE and he shot all the way through his water buffalo which weighed approximately 2200#'s. He didn't use his fish arrows on buffalo, he used small diameter carbon shafts with a lead rod inside, extimated weight 1500 grains, since his scale dosn't go that high. I have one of his arrows right here. I recommend a mimimum arrow weight of 900 grains, everyone with an arrow at least this heavy and well tuned with the right heads has had no penetration problems on water buffalo. Those shooting lighter arrows(all compound shooters) had problems.

loboga I agree with you and have been saying the same thing for years to the speed demons of the archery sport. Tiny little shafts with short fletching may give you speed and 1 sight pin out to 35 yds or so but speed quickly sheds on contact with muscle.
I still shoot 100% fiberglass shafts and 4.5" shafts from my recurves....penetration is NO problem with that combo.
Archers it seems are just like powder burners in the sense that newer & faster is thought by many to be better.
You want to kill 'um then you got to thump 'um!

quote:

Originally posted by loboga:
Bows will kill buffalo cleanly, but you do need to have everything right. Its unfortunate that some countries have decided to use KE as a basis for minimum requirements, in my experience and those of others it is useless for determening how well a archery set up will do. KE gives to much weight to speed, which is why compound bows do better. In the real world, its the heavy well tuned arrow, with the right head the does the job. Monty's bow was putting out something like 42#'s of KE and he shot all the way through his water buffalo which weighed approximately 2200#'s. He didn't use his fish arrows on buffalo, he used small diameter carbon shafts with a lead rod inside, extimated weight 1500 grains, since his scale dosn't go that high. I have one of his arrows right here. I recommend a mimimum arrow weight of 900 grains, everyone with an arrow at least this heavy and well tuned with the right heads has had no penetration problems on water buffalo. Those shooting lighter arrows(all compound shooters) had problems.

I agree that the choice of KE for bows was unfortunate. I agree with Ashby (and apparently yourself) that it's momentum that does the job.

All bows increase the available KE as the arrow weight goes up, compound or recurve, so to say that compound bows favor light, fast, arrows is erroneous. 3D shooters favor speed since it decreases the effect of mis-judged distances. They, and the manufacturers have fostered the speed craze, which IMHO has been very bad for hunting in the USA.

My personal opinion is that you need to use at least a 540 grain arrow for deer from any bow. These light fast arrows can lose all their energy just by quivering once when they strike.

I think a better phrase would be to say that heavier arrows favor momentum

By Asby's yardstick a 900 grain arrow at 42 ft-lbs has a momentum of .57 - entirely suitable for game up to zebra according to him. I'd say a bow that delivers only 42 ftlb needs to shoot a 1200 grain arrow for cape buff (M =.67 ), but at least we are going in the same direction. From a bow like mine (98 ftlbs) a 900 grain arrow is plenty for buff (M = .88).

I realize these heavier arrows have rainbow trajectories, but I feel they are necessary for these bigger animals.

lobogo - Rick , I'm glad to see you here. I read about you last trip to OZ, sounds like you had a great water Buff hunt.

It's good to have someone with actual Buff Bowhunting experience on the thread. Thanks for clearification on Monty's hunt. I'm getting too close to 50, can't remember shit anymore.

Frank

Frank and Rick you cant win this fight here!
It would be easier to kill a cape buffalo with you head than get pure rifle hunters to understand why you want to use a bow.
I always like the saying if you have to ask you wouldnt understand. That is archery in one phrase! Even if you taped the kill all went perfect the buffalo fell over in 60 yards you would hear its just a stunt, it wasnt legal, it would have been deader with a rifle, blah blah blah blah.
That is a picture of a great buffalo! It can be done and if it is your thing go for it. I am too cheap myself I have to get my odds of success as high as possible when I lay down the $$$. If I went for buffalo with a bow and if I missed I had better hope the buff stomps me because the wife will kill me over and over again for spending $$$$$ and no animal
Dean

We run pretty much 100% on bowhunters with water buffalo, which are built the same, except bigger than cape buffalo. Dr. Ashby and I have come to the same conclusions on them, or you can say he came to the same conclusions as I did. He says they are the toughest animals to penetrate with an arrow, short of the pacyderms.
Compound bows are not a problem, its just that most guys that shoot them are hung up on the speed thing, all the ones that bring 900 grain or heavier arrows do great. The rainbow tradjectories are a fact, but not a problem if you practice with them. I shoot 970 grain arrows on buff and rarely take a practice shot under 30 yards, so when I get a shot at 20 yards its ridiculously easy. The guys that only practice to 20 yards and hope for a 10 yard shot have problems. I love bowhunting for buffalo, but it isn't easy and its definately not for everyone. After a few weeks of guiding bowhunters, its like a vacation to guide a gunhunter!

loboga,

I've heard (from a man who has taken the "Big 6" ) that the absolute toughest to penetrate is the rhino.

He says that he luckily killed one with his first arrow, then shot the carcase 20 more times to test his setup. He was using (coincidentally?) 900 grain arrows with two blade broadheads from a 105# compound bow, getting over 100 ftlbs KE. He said only 5 of 20 test arrows penetrated to the vitals.

I'd give a nickel to run that test with a 1200 grain arrow at 100 ft-lbs!

I'm glad you spoke up, and would like to talk with you further. Would you mind continuing this conversation in the bowhunting forum, so Mich could have his thread back?

Thanks,