What do you think? I took this bull with the swift 400gr .416 at bottom. Broke sholder bone on near side, made large hole in hart and ended up as shown under far ribs. Recovered weight 250gr. The bullet is flat and has had the rear core extruded out of the opening in rear. The other bullets are 250gr swifts recovered from a frontal shot on impala and zebra.

[IMG]
http://community.webshots.com/album/24710347PwsFblsBns[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Brett (edited 11-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Brett (edited 11-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Brett (edited 11-06-2001).]

Help, having a bit of trouble posting photo, and spelling...

Very nice buf. Congrats.

Typical super A-frame performance.

Photos came up fine.

What speling?

Steve

Brett,

Looks like you're mixing your URL and IMG tags.

Here is the small picture:

Here is a link to the big picture:
http://wsphotofews.excite.com/018/uy/TC/ml/pZ23097.jpg
OR
Buff w/ Bullets

Finally, here is the smaller picture as a link to the bigger picture:

To see the UBB code I used, just hit the edit button above my post.

Cannon

I have never been a big Swift A-Frame fan. I have seen more than a few recovered bullets that missed bones yet were very distorted or separated. All A-Frames seem to bulge behind the partition or the lead separates behind the partition. If were are strictly talking bullet performance, I have a lot of questions about A-Frames.

HOWEVER, many people use them and like them. They perform well enough to kill anything that Africa can dish out. My opinion is that Woodleigh has a better soft and a better solid than Swift for big bore applications. Ray has recently reported about the excellent performance of the Nosler in .416 and many are reporting excellent results with GS bullets.

At the end of the day you can argue till your blue in the face which bullet is the �best�. Bullet recovery will tell you a lot about field performance. This forum is an excellent way to learn about field observations from the professionals. In any event, you will get a lot of opinions.

I have very limited experience with the Swift A Frame, but here is some info to add to your book, for those of you keeping track of bullet performance.

A 500 grain .458 Swift A Frame, muzzle velocity at 2450 fps, recovered from a Cape Buffalo weighed 493 grains. Perfect mushroom. All the other SAF I shot into Buffalo exited, even those at a severe angle traveling through a lot of Buffalo meat. It does appear that the bullet may not have struck any bones.

SAF - left
Barnes solid - Right

I can't recall the shot that produced this bullet. But I think it may have entered behind the rib cage going forward to the opposite shoulder.

Not conclusive obviously, but interesting nonetheless.

------------------
Wendell Reich
Hunter's Quest International

[This message has been edited by Buffalobwana (edited 11-06-2001).]

Brett,
The Swift A Frame from your Buffalo is a classic case of pure bullet failure and another case for the solid.....

I will state once more that all softs fail from time to time on Buffalo when major bones are struck and yours is but another example of this, and keep in mind that the A Frame is one of our better soft point bullets for the big stuff..I have seen the Nosler, Woodleigh, Swift, BarnesX fail on Buffalo, thoes bullets litter my desk. I have never seen a solid fail unless it is driven too fast.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I'm not sure I would call this bullet failure...it looks as if the bullet hit where you were aiming (accurate enough), retained enough weight (62% which is typical of Noslers no matter what they hit), and did plenty of damage to cause the desired result (dead buffalo and live shooter to show off the bullet). I'm not sure what a solid would have done better except sail off into the landscape.

Having said that, shot placement is certainly more critical with a soft than a solid but I still wouldn't take a "first" shot at a buffalo if the only target presented was from the rear.

Brett,

Congratulations on a fine buffalo.

In looking at the A-Frame that you recovered from the bull, I would term this a poorly designed bullet, that fortunately killed your buffalo.

The people at Swift would help their bullet immensely if they would bond the rear lead core to the jacket the same way they do the front core. Because the rear core is not bonded it will continue to travel after the jacket has come to a stop. This causes the bulges seen in some A-Frame and the loss of the rear core that you suffered. Winchester had the same problem with their FailSafe. To correct the situation they inserted a complicated steel cup into the rear half of the bullet.

Congratulations again on your fine bull.

Good Hunting !

[This message has been edited by Pumba (edited 11-07-2001).]

Bret,

Thanks for great photos.

Can you give us some details on your 375 250 gr Swift?

Range and muzzle velocity (2,900 fps???)

Andy

Thank you all for the discussion. The reason I posted was that I was a bit confused as to what to think about this bullet. On the one hand the buff only went about 15-20 yd.s before falling on his chest, never moved again. On the other hand the bullet really went to pieces. I now understand why some guys load one soft and the rest solids.

Incidentally, the buff had a partially healed lion bite on the top of his spine about a foot in front of the root of the tail. In front of that and to the left side were the perfect puncture marks made by the claws of the lion. I wonder what the lion looked like after that little tussle�When we found him the bull was alone and had, as one of the trackers remarked, a glazed look in his eyes like someone with a bad hangover.

Kelly; The .375 load was 72gr of 4064 for about 2700 in my rifle. Both shots were a around 175yd.s. I brought a range finder and tried to measure the approximate distances after each animal was recovered. The rifle was zeroed at 200, rise at 100 about 1.5in. This seemed to be just the ticket for the plains game I shot. Most shots were between 125 and 200 yards. I passed on all longer shots. None of the bullets exited. All showed bulging behind the partition and separation of the rear core. Nothing went much further than 20 yards after being hit except the zebra hit in chest, bullet broke off sholder. He ran about 50 yards and was finished with a neck shot.

Brett

Brett,
If you had not of recovered that bullet you wouldn't know the difference and would not be concerned about its performance at all.
The buff dropped quickly and you are alive.I call that bullet success.
Good pictures

Karl.

[This message has been edited by Karl (edited 11-07-2001).]

Brett,

another thing is that 250gr is no heavyweight for the 375 caliber. I feel a 300 grainer would have worked differently (but then, the buff is dead, right ?)

olivier

DB,
I have shot a lot of Buffalo broadside with a solid that "sailed of into the country side"...It leaves two holes and lots of blood on the "country side", they tipically run 40 yds. and die...A GS FN will shorten that time a bit more...I have shot them with a soft and the go 40 yds. and die..Hmmmmm?

I wish some of you would use a solid on several Buffalo before passing judgment on them, its apparant that you have not, and are perhaps drawing on the say so of others that also have not used them...the simple fact is they work and allways have...IMHO

Softs work also and they work very well, but I have never seen a soft that didn't fail on ocassion and I consider the above bullet a failure, the fact that it killed the buffalo has nothing to do with anything, the solid that followed it had something to do with it I'm sure....

When a bullet comes apart that is an indication that something is wrong and the next time it could cost you injury or death...so I don't buy off on the BS " at what point in the animals death did the bullet fail" that Sierra so proudly professed to a customer on one ocassion....

To those that want to use softs on Buffalo I have no problem with that, it is a choice, but many a PH and African have used solids and still do, it is an ongoing argument with two sides, not one.....

My conclusion came from the fact that I have never seen nor know of a client or PH that got tossed when using solids...In every case that I personally know of they were using softs that failed or the bullet was misplaced.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

The only 100% safe bullet to fire is one you let someone else fire while you wait in the vehicle.

With people using muzzleloaders, handguns and bows and arrows on dangerous game these days, I find an argument against a premium softpoint fired from an elephant gun quite amusing.

Incidentally softpoints, fallible as they may be,must kill better than FMJ in some circumstances on this game, otherwise they would not be used would they?
The softpoints evolution on said game would have ceased the moment they were first used.

Karl.

Ray...absolutely right! I have shot exactly one buffalo and that with a 300gr Nosler Partition however I have a fairly wide circle of friends who are very experienced safari hands + more than a few PHs from Zim and Tanzania and although it isn't 100% a very large majority use (or suggest their clients use) a premium soft for the first shot on buffalo followed by solids of course.

I think one of the signs of intelligence is the ability to learn from the experiences of others especially if their experience is relevant to me as a sport hunter (client). If I were required to "sort out" other peoples mistakes or if I decided I was going to take any shot offered by a buff I'm sure I would come to a different conclusion on bullet selection (and caliber) but that's not my situation as a client. I don't have Kevin Robertson's book handy but as I recall he didn't have a problem with clients using expanding bullets for the first shot on a buff.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I think anyone using any of teh premium bullets will have no problems with buffalo.

I have heard no bad reports from those using the following bullets:

Nosler Partition
Trophy Bonded Bear Claws
Swift A-Frames
Barnes X

------------------
saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Two things come to mind reading these posts and that is first that softs are exceptable and preferable when hunting herds, and the possibility exists that one may shoot two Buffalo with one shot...I believe this to be true.

Hunting Bachlor bulls, is another ball game and a lot of arguments arise because of this in the US, but seldom in Africa....When hunting Bachlor bulls in Tanzania where the country is more open and bulls are in groups of two to four. solids are best in my opinnion...Again I say try them yourself and then draw your own opinnion, not the opinnion of others...thats what I did and I found them to be excellent killers as have many PH's and African hunters...Softs fail just like the one on this thread and I have seen some bent, peddleless BarnesX that Saeed has posted, it happens, fortunately they have killed, but does that not cause some concern?? Ross Seyfried, a long time supporter of Barnes X, will tell you that monolithics fail from quality control...

I have never been a supporter of a soft on top and solids to follow, most, including Finn Agaard, found they never had the correct one on top when they needed it...so they, like myself, Finn and others just started using solids exclusively...If the soft is so wonderfull then why do we back it up with solids?? because solids will penitrate lenthwise, a criteria I require with any Buffalo bullet...

Now, I don't require anyone the use solids, but I think one should consider them a viable option, as opposed to scolding thoes who have used them for years with perfect success....thats my story and I'm sticking with it makes since to me.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray.....you might like to know that at least one well-known PH agrees with you and insists his clients use solids on buff....Mark Sullivan.

Bill - That was so far below the belt that I will not comment further - except to say, few people have ever confused Mark with being a PH.

DB,
Regardless of ones view of Mark Sullivan, you have to admit that he has certainly shot his share of Buffalo, and should have an idea of what will or will not kill one...There is a long list of PH's that can be added to that list....

A recent article in African Hunter (Zimbabwe Indaba Issue, vol. 6 no. 6 on the 375 and solids should wake you up in that it clearly shows the integrity of a solid is very hard to maintain, now I suggest that if this well written article, by Charlie Haley is correct, then many should take an open minded look at the solid...

I am going to take an open minded approach to two bullets in Soft point persuasion, the Northfork and the GS HP for Buffalo, and that will come from using them and not on speculation....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray....you know I have a lot of admiration and even affection for you as you seem to be a heck of a guy with a lot of experience and a sense of reality but the good thing is that we can still be "cyber friends" even if we don't agree 100% on everything and as you're a bit older than I have I hope to have a few more years to catch up and learn as much as you.

Brett,

It looks like fairly open country. Even very open country. Is there any chance your bullet hit a tree limb prior to hitting the buffalo?

It looks like probably not but thgouht Id ask.

The "beer barrel" effect of the un-bonded rear core slamming into the partition occurs at close range with most swifts, and drops off to about nil at 100 yards.

Oddly enough, this helps support the expanded mushroom so it does not bend backwards like a badmitton birdie.

this increases the bullets frontal area and keeps the muchroom from work-hardening and breaking off.

I doubt if this was intentional but I have seen it in all swift calibers Ive ever recovered, 264, 7mm, 308, 375, 416, 458.

Brett, do you have an idea when your bullet "tumbled" (turned around 90-180 degrees) and expanded from the base?

I would guess after richocheting along the ribs.

I see the lead is still well bonded to the remaining ogive fragment.

Andy

[This message has been edited by Andy (edited 11-09-2001).]

Andy

Shot him in a very open area near a low green spot with lots of cover. We very often saw dagga boys in or near this sort of stuff. No way the bullet hit a limb - no trees.

The bullet is flat and was recovered behind the ribs on the off side. From the look of the hole in his heart I would guess that the bullet mushroomed and then rotated 90 or spun until it hit side ways on the ribs. When it hit the ribs it lost the core.

Thanks for info Brett,

Can you describe what his heart looked like?

Also the diameter of your 250 gr .375 Swift? Mine are about 60 caliber and 212 gr.

Andy

[This message has been edited by Andy (edited 11-10-2001).]

DB,
That last post flurished with intelligence, beyond a doubt, but I hate it that you found out I'm older than you..

Now I have to confess to you that I have been lieing about my age, I'm actually 39 but have been exposed to some pretty rough roads....that said I will from now on bow to my elders such as you..

Damn, I feel younger allready.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Andy the hole in the hart was much more ragged and large than I am used to seeing, On the other hand this is the first I have seen hit by a fully expanded .416.

The 250gr .375 weighed 236 and 237gr rounded to the nearest grain. Accross the petals one averages around 65cal. the other 75.

Brett

Thanks Brett,

Great little bullet isnt it?

Mine were recovered at highr velocity in five gallon water buckets. 3050 fps. Must be a little bit harder on it but still a great little bullet.

Using a 250 Swift, barnes or TBBC is an easy way to get familiar with the 375.

Andy

Ray....I suspect you have shoes older than I am.