I know a few of the guys on here have had knee problems. Mine are kinda bad, but not yet to the point where I need to have surgury/replacement (the orthod says it was a 50/50 chance between getting worse, or getting better w. surgury.) Unless I'm having a really bad day, I can pretty much do whatever I like, as long as I avoid pushing on weights (which meant no more competition) and walks longer than about 3 miles or so.

Other than squats, and the band exercises, can anyone recommend things to help? Is there usually enough ice in camps to be able to ice down knees at the end?

Glucosamine (sp?). I have had knee trouble from professional sports for a lot of years. Had surgery for a miniscus tear in my right knee about 15 years ago. It has given me trouble every time I exert myself and often when I didn't do anything to deserve the pain until I discovered this dietary supplement which has nearly eliminated all traces of problems. It doesn't stiffen up or hurt any more when I exert myself. Amazing stuff. Not saying that it is the end-all be-all, but it sure has worked for me.

The best are in a liquid form.......take my word on this.


urdubob

Liquid capsules or actual liquid, urdubob?

"Joint Juice" from Costco.

For me Glucosamine works the best when taken in conjunction with an anti-inflammatory. (ie. ibuprophen, acetametiphin, asprin). They work together better for me than taking either one by itself.

But be warned, just like some of the anti-inflammatories glucosamine can be hard on your stomach.

Aglifter, I share the same affliction and I believe it is as a result of years of very heavy squats. I am getting a treatment now that I recommend you try - it's called Hyalgan. It is a replacement for the natural lubricant in your joints and believe it or not it is made from the comb on a rooster's head. I have had 4 of the series of 5 injections recommended and it is a noticeable improvement. This is *not* snake oil but a genuine and approved treatment. Unlike cortisone it does not have the side effect of of deteriorating the cartilage. See the link below for information - give it a try...

http://www.hyalgan.com/consumer/about_hyalgan/default.asp

I've had a lateral meniscectomy, a posterior cruciate ligament (PCL) replacement, a modified Andrews procedure where they split my patella tendon to make an Anterior Cruciate Ligament (ACL)and a cadaver tendon graft to make a new ACL, all in my left knee.

I've been involved with 4 experimental treatment studies including growing cartilage in petri dishes and the one that seems to help the most is to take anti-inflammatories along with 1500 mg of Glucosamine and 1200 mg of Chondroitin.

rock
I'm sure that is a form of hyaluronic acid (HA) which glucosamine is supposed to be a precursor for. I'm sure it works, it is commonly used orally and injected into the hocks of performance horses, such as cutters and reiners. I had a bad knee from playing basketball past 35 years old, take glucosamine and chondroiton and now run 1.5 miles a day and it just plain fixed mine. This of course won't help someone with ACL problems, just the ones whose problem is related to lubrication. Apparently mine was.

/

I've had ACL recons. like Fjold & recetly had the same left knee scoped to clean up another tear in the ACL. I am pretty hard on my knees, hunting in the mountains & 75-100 games a year officiating soccer matches at the high school level have not been kind to me.
The trick is to keep the knee joint lubricated w/o damaging or twisting. I'm 50 now, I'll wear a good ortho knee brace when I hunt & probably give up the officiating for biking. I have been taking the Gluc/Condr. for years & while it may work wonders for others, I have seen no great improvement then again I see little downside so I'll continue. Stay active w/o over stressing, light weight training w/ high reps. Live long, hunt hard.

See a podiatrist to make sure that foot problems (fallen arches, arthritis or other foot problems) aren't causing you to walk "funny." I have arthritis in both my big toes and have had surgery on both to clean up the joints. One still hurts pretty much all the time. Having left the problem untreated for several years, I unconsciously started walking on the outsides of my feet, which made my kneecaps move in a way God didn't intend, with the result that I now have bone spurs on the undersides of both my kneecaps. Custom-made orthotic inserts for my shoes (your doctor can do this) have helped tremendously to correct my walking, as has following his advice to refrain from walking barefoot as much as possible. Everyone is different, of course, but I have had no serious trouble with walking 10-12 miles a day in the mountains elk hunting for the last 12 years. There may also be physical therapies you can do to stave off further deterioration of the joint.

I tried glucosamine for a year or so and it didn't do jack. It's not cheap either. But I also know people who swear by it.

Try Synvisc (sp). I had injections of it every six months. You need a series of 3 injections a week apart. The last bone cutter that gave me the injections called it voodoo meds., but said if it worked for me go for it, after about 3 yrs of this I just had a new knee put in.

Alf

Don't know about credible proof, but fifteen years ago, I had quit riding cutting horses and hunting mountains because of my basketball knees. I now ride 40-50 hours a month and can walk most guys fifteen years younger than me into the ground, I also run on a machine 1.5-2 miles daily. The HA I know works on horses, as I've seen cutting horses that quit stopping hard because their hocks were so sore. After injecting with HA, the will soon slam to a stop and it is cured for a couple or three years. My data is not scientific, but I believe it.

/

A key diff between HA and cortisone though, is that it doesn't exhibit the long term deteriorating effects on the tissue that extended use of cortisone can. You have described exactly what it is - lubricant replacement - not a remedy for tendon damage but for me it seems to be working...

Alf, I've been through too much not to be a cynic when it comes to trends and miracle drugs, but glucosamine has worked wonders for me and many others that I know. After a good work out, I would barely be able to walk before I discovered glucosamine. I sceptically tried it, and have never looked back. So, that being said, it may not work for everyone, but it certainly has for me.

I have been on the Glucosamine now for about 15 years and have to say I think it has extended my activity. Lately however, I have been plagued by a painfully swelled left knee that may get better. I would dearly LOVE to take some anti-infammatory but, being on cumadin for a valve replacement, can't. Now what, excersize, replacement?

/

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I love this:

Patients make the rules:

You expect and demand of the medical system ethical, professional and skillful conduct in this by implication then also the use of medications or practices proven to be safe and efficatious for the patient..... thus doing no harm, if not we assume liability.

Now we come to this issue of a supplement called glucosamine over which we have no control in terms of standards, knowledge of good or bad, dosages, side effects or even proven beneficial effects and yet you promote it and expect us to promote it and then assume liability if somewhere in the future we find out it may do harm...... Hmmmmmm methinks not!

Both my GP and my orthopedic surgeon recommended that I try Glucosomine/Chondroitin. They said that it couldn't hurt me and that it might help, so they had me take it for a minimum of 60 days to see if it had any positive effects. After about 45 days I noticed that my bad knee felt less stiff and worked easier through the limited range of motion that I have left. I haven't changed anything else in my routine and both my doctors feel that it has been helping me for the last 5 years so I'm going to continue to take it.

Aglifter, comes here asking opinions and experiences of other posters, not a doctors opinion, Alf where are you comming from?

B12 and Cosomine DS helped mine and I have Lymes Disease.It got to wear I could hardly walk a mile at one point.I got in a heads on wreck also that didnt help a thing.I take alot of vit c and b12 and I get the energy to over come my lymes.I still cant go in the sun above 80 degrees hardly which is my worst system of Lymes disease.I take vits every day and walk as much as i can.

Alf
I know HA and gluc are not the same. Rock mentioned Hyalgan, which I would bet is an HA type substance. I have a lot of experience with HA injections on horses, so I stated my experience. My doctor said the same words as some of the others, try it, glucosamine won't hurt anything, it MAY help. I believe it may have helped me, at least something did and that was all I have taken. I'm turning 50 and can still run, ride athletic horses in competition and hunt my butt off, and can stil play basketball at least after a fashion.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/glucosamine.html

I've seen good double-blind studies that show about 60% of people feel better taking glucosamine--it won't grow you new cartilage. I tell my patients to try it for a month to see if it helps....

I saw the original glucosamine studies back in 1990 and 1991. I started recommending it at that time. I would echo the above observation that ~ 60 percent of my patients are helped. My patients are real cheap skates, and wouldn't spend a nickel on anything that didn't help them. These folks are a little too hard boiled for the "placebo effect".

I agree with ALF about Synvisc. The rate of response doesn't justify the expense.

Now that the patents are expiring on all the fancy non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medicines the medical studies are suddenly noticing what I have observed for many years; 80 mg of Depo-Medrol (methylprednisolone acetate) in an arthritic knee joint will often buy six months to a year of safe relief.

If you have a big hunting trip coming up there is nothing at all wrong with getting a cortisone injection in one or both knees about three weeks prior. You will have a much more enjoyable and productive hunt.

LD

Both my knees are shot and I´ve tried all the surgery and all the meds without any real help. Injected steroids help a while, effect deteriorating inside six weeks but then again I have serious arthrosis.

Glucosamines haven´t helped me but some of my patients swear by it so I prescribe it -why not?

My Solution has so far been this -light exercise at least three times a week, dropping body weight, painkillers as needed and try to pretend everything is OK. A good orthosis is important as are corrective soles etc.

Last spring I hunted eland and walked 15-20 kms a day. Hurt like hell in the evening but it was worth every minute.

In four weeks time I´ll be hunting waterbuck in SA and I´ll do my best with what I have left -I´ll be having prosthetic surgery in the fall.

People on AR have always been supportive and given good advice -Thank you all!- but the most important thing is attitude:

Don´t give in to becoming a patient!

All I can add to this conversation is to relate that my wife has bad arthritis in both knees as well as a missing kneecap and ligament tears. She receives the HA injections twice a year for very noticeable improvement. Not a cure. Serious improvement that lets her walk whereas before she could barely hobble with excruciating pain. The Glucosamine/Cond. never helped her.
Gary