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I have seen and experienced exactly the same thing. Examples:

Elk shot broadside with 416 rigby using 350 grain speers. No reaction to the shot and runs off. After a very difficult tracking exercise because the blood available to use for tracking was literally a speck every 10 feet, the elk was found expired. The bullet went through both lungs and did not expand.

Elk cresting a hill shot broadside with 375 H&H using 270 grain Hornadys. No reaction to the shot. Elk returns the way it came. On circling around, the elk was found headed down the valley a few hundred yards away but moving slowly as its lungs were filling with blood. Tracking was only possible by looking at pine needles and leaves disturbed by the elk's feet as there was no external blood loss. A finisher put an end to it.

My conclusion has been that on North American game we need to use more lightly constructed bullets than for African game. In the big bores, I favor Hawk for hunting over here. In the .375 I have switched to Noslers which open up reliably on elk but still penetrate.

[ 11-12-2003, 18:54: Message edited by: 500grains ]

Don't know what to say, Alf. Some animals just don't react to the shot, I guess.

Last month, I shot a calf moose at 210 yards, with my 300 H&H. At the shot, the calf did not react, but moved up beside it's mother. Did I miss?? I couldn't shoot again, for fear of hitting both.

A few seconds later, the calf turned and walked back to the spot of the first shot, facing the opposite direction. I shot again. Again, no reaction! The calf just stood there. It appeared as calm and unconcerned as its mother, who just stood looking in my direction. Just as I was squeezing the trigger on the third shot, I saw the calf stumble and go down.

Later, I found out my first shot had quartered through the front, complete pass through, missing the shoulder, but taking much lung. There was a 10' X 10' patch behind the calf that was covered in blood and lung tissue. The calf did not show any indication of being shot.

The second shot was farther back, taking out ribs and the liver, and stopping in the hide on the far side. Both were killing shots, but the calf show no reaction at all, until it stumbled and went down.

A lot of people say moose aren't tough animals. Maybe yes, maybe no. Guess it depends on how you define "tough". Is it the ability to simply absorb a shot, or the ability to travel long distances after the shot? If this calf had run on the first shot, it could easily have travelled a couple of hundred yards into the bush, in the time it took for it finally to drop. Luckily, our job was simply to drag it further up on shore, for cleaning, and roll it into the boat. I much prefer that to dragging it a hundred yards through thick bush!!

Bison are notoriously phlegmatic. They show about as much reaction to a (non-CNS) bullet strike as a bureaucrat does to reason.

George

Matching bullet construction to velocity to game to produce the desired terminal ballistics?
Sounds like physics class! You are probably correct in your conclusion that the bison aren't as tough as cape buffalo, no lions trying to eat the bison.

No... You can't use too much gun. But you CAN use the wrong bullet. With that said I'd think the Speers that 500grains referenced would be perfect for elk so... I guess every theory has it's flaws in the real world, huh?

Bottom line.. I'd rather have too much gun and too much bullet than too little...

I've seen the same with moose. Interested in how the conversation went with the guide in the aftermath. I take it there was another dead bull to be found?

That's the sort of trouble you get into with a female PH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've always believed that the .30-30 was so successful for deer hunting because it's velocity, bullet construction, and the fact that it was usually fired under 100 yards was a right combination for that size and makeup of animal.

I've seen smaller game where the .22 long rifle was a poor choice but the .22 pellet gun worked much better.

Other small game has clearly demonstrated that there's a better bullet than others for quickly dispatching the animal.

There's no reason to believe this phenonima don't exist on much larger species as well. A 270 Gr. .375 H&H once went through a whitetail with no sign of being hit...but luckily there was snow and I found it 200 yards away.

It's why I like this forum....I get to learn by the experiences of others.

Is there such a thing as too much gun?...I'm convinced there is at least for a few things!!

Will,

Quite that! Thats another monitor and keyboard covered in tea!

Pete

Is there such a thing as too much gun?

Yes there is such a thing as too much gun for the shooter, but not for the animal being hunted.

[ Sorry! Double post.

[ 11-12-2003, 21:33: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

On another side of the "too much gun" question; I just returned from a whitetail hunt in South Carolina. I took a 300saum because it was new and I wanted to try it in the field. I used 165 gr. remmington factory ammo. I felt that I was using more gun than needed but I was shocked by the results. My only shot was a 50yd shot at a doe. When hit the doe was spun around and knocked to the ground. Both front legs were useless but it scooted itself into the bush with its back legs. When I got to it I found that the deer was about 15 yards away from where I shot it. It left a blood trail that seemed to have been painted with a 3 inch paint brush. When I turned it over I saw why, the exit wound was literally the size of a grapefruit. It's a good thing that I wasn't interested in the hide.
My conclusion: dead is dead, the caliber works, but the damage was excessive so I'll go back to my trusty 30-06 for whitetail.

ALF,

As I have thought about going on this hunt in the past, I would appreciate a few more details. Obviously, the guide was of dubious quality but what about the hunt itself and the area? What was the trophy quality like in general? How many days were you there? Were the logistics pretty seamlessly put together by your booking agent? How much of a mission was recovery. What facilities and vehicles were available for recovery and butchering. I know I am barraging you with questions here but I am very curious about this hunt as I have heard both good and bad.
Just out of curiosity, regarding your hunt in particular, did circumstances dictate against a rapid follow up shot before the first animal got back into the herd. I am really surprised the guide insisted on you shooting again. ANYONE who has been around bison that much should know how slowly they react to a heart/lung shot.

Looking forward to photos!

Best,

JohnTheGreek

IS THERE EVER TOO MUCH GUN???

Had a RED SQUIRREL sneak out of the woods in front of me while seated at the shooting bench getting ready to do some round testing with my 45-70 Guide Gun. The rodent seemed intent on stalking some poor woodland creature grazing in the distance. I think it was a Grizzly bear.

I steeled myself for the charge if I only wounded it. Then I sent the 350gr Hornady on the way to that pestilence from hell.

At the impact the beast released a scream that would pale the roar of an enraged lion.
IT CHARGED!!!!!!!!!!
Luckily I had backed up my magazine with Garrett 540gr Hammerheads, working the Marlin with the rapidity of Chuck Connors in the openning scene of the "RIFLEMAN" I slammed 1080 more grains of lead into the brute in 2 machinegunned shots before it reached me. With one last moan worthy of a haunted house banshee the beast expired litteraly at my now trembling feet.

EVER TOO much gun...I don't think so.

Last February I took a nice bull in Southern Oklahoma on a 1250 acre ranch. I used a 416 Rem Mag with a 400 grain Nosler Partition over 81 grains of RL15. The shot was a perfect broadside lung / heart shot with about 2 feet of lung tissue hanging out the exit hole. On impact he spun around 180 degrees, stumbled, spewed blood out his mouth and nostrils, took about 3 steps and collaped. Dead in about 10 seconds or less.





The guide picked up my spent casing off the ground, looking at the case head stamp, shaking his head, he said he had never seen a bull go down and die so quickly.

The back hide is on my bed and the head is still at the taxidermist. 576 lbs of lean, but fine tasting meat in the freezer.

[ 11-13-2003, 00:29: Message edited by: Mighty Joe ]

Joe, can you give any more details on your hunt? I might be interested in that, being close to my locale.

Thanks.

So excuse me for asking the obvious; but if bison are soft compared to cape buffalo, then why did a .404 not do the job on two bison??????? You're actually going to tell me that an animal as large as a bison can't open up a rhino bullet but a buff can or even a zebra can?????? Lions have nothing to do with whether a bullet will open up or not. After all, wolves fed on bison.....a predator is a predator!!! That's common sense!

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Looks like you had a great hunt.
As Tolstoy said,"Details man, details!"

Looks like you had a great time all the same, And that looks like a great .404 rifle you own as well.

Just to add Alf I shoot a lot of game with my big bores that is a lot smaller than what they where intended for and have also witnessed it being shot. My experience with woodleigh bullets in particular is that they manage to open somewhat even on chest shot roo's, this is the 410 gr .416 soft. Yet I know these woodleigh's will also hang together. Do not give up on you .404 yet maybe try a softer bullet, or a woodleigh.

hell no put some platstic wrap on a tree wait till the animal steps in front of it then fire and wrap it all at once

2200 fps, with a 400 grain bullet?

Is that a little slow? Isn't the 404 nearly the same size as the 416 rigby case?

I would think perhaps more velocity might create more bullet expansion, more slap, and more noticeable results.

I can't help but think of Saeed, and his 404/375, and the reason he likes it is the extra slap it gives, between 2400 and 2600, with 300 grain bullets.

Everyone makes a very large deal of the velocity advantages of the 458 Lott, vs. the 458 win, and the big difference in striking power between the two.

2100-2200 vs. 2300-2400. Perhaps that couple hundred feet creates a big advantage in effect?

Thoughts?

gs

By the way, one of the few animals I've killed, or believed I killed, since I never found the body, was also a meadow lion, or, better known, as a deadly ground squirel. On a very hot day, right around dusk, the dangerous creature approached, stalking us, around a target tank we were shooting at. The telescopic sight on the Abrahams M-60 tank picked up his terrifying eyes, and figure, and, as he charged, we let loose with our rifle, a 105 mm, 37 pound high explosive projectile, moving at 2900 fps, out of about a 15 foot barrel. The massive recoil, knocked the entire team backwards a couple feet, not to mention the tank. Caught in mid leap, at about 10 miles, I believe we effectively stopped his dangerous charge, and put an end to another deadly predator. However, we quickly reloaded, and fired again, creating a rather large crater, where we think he expired. A quick follow up shot in such situations is insurance against possible maiming by this most dangerous, and fastest of all predators. I only regret that the
skin was not recovered...

I think, considering the amount of tissue and skin damage that occured, that the 105 mm abrahams rifle does qualify as too much gun, for most domestic animals. However, if in Africa, it would certainly be my choice hunting in Zim, for my favorite vermin, poachers and Mugabes...

gs

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Just got back from my first elk hunt of the year during Colorado's 4th season. Hit a cow elk right behind the right front shoulder, half way up the body. Was using my .375 H&H (gotta have some fun when not in Africa) loaded with Barnes 210 grain X bullets. She didn't even flinch. Ran with the herd about 100 yds, then stopped, wobbled, and fell. Exit wound on opposite side was definitely large.

Too much gun?
I use my 450 No2, my 450/400 3 1/4" and my 9,3x74R for deer and pigs. Also I have killed a few deer with a 375 H&H.
I think you can have too much bullet. I always try and match the bullet to the game. If your bullets do not expand you are in effect using solids.
I firmly believe it is a good idea to use your "elephant" guns on deer and pigs as much as possible. Just use a bullet that will expand in the smaller game. If the "regular" bullet companies do not offer bullets in your caliber try bullets from www.Hawkbullets.com
Their .025jkt and .035jkt bullets have performed perfectly for me in my doubles.

I do wonder if you can loose the calibers effect by using too SHORT a bullet for caliber. I believe the bullet length is a component in energy transfer with solids.

While I haven't tested them, Impala bullets are REAL intresting, because they are long for bullet weight, yet they give you the advantage of lightweight bullet velocity.

In other words you get a full length for caliber
375 H&H bullet, yet due to weight, it's going 2800-2900 fps, and that gives it some serious slap, plus the energy transfer from the full length bullet. Same with their lightweight 45 caliber bullets, and, .30 caliber bullets.

Seems to me you don't even need a hollowpoint with this design.

I've also heard of 458 win mags hitting bison with little effect.

One guy made a 4 bore, shooting a 1875 grain bullet, at about 1500+fps IIRC. He shot a cape buffalo with it, and the buffalo still went 60 yards before dieing.

I figured after that nothing I could shoot, or afford, would work better, so I bought a 375 H&H.

gs

Nine times out of ten, bison will show no reaction to a hit with any caliber..I have shot them with 50-140 sharps with the same effect as a 30-30..they stand around or run off and die when they get good and ready, may even continue to graze, ocassionally one will fall at the shot like anything else, but that just happens and has nothing to do with caliber...

The old buff hunters would take a stand, lung shoot a bull and when he spewed blood the others would gather around him and they would repeat the process...that still holds today, they perform a ritual of trying to save a downed compadre when you shoot one out of a herd...

I have found Moose to have about the same nervous system, like they don't even feel the shot....

Ray:
What's the velocity of the 50-140? Seems to me the usual definition of too much gun is 50 BMG...

Seems to me the 50-140 is getting into the same area...

gs

Socrates, the Rigby holds about 20 or 22% more powder under the bullet than the Jeffery.
Factory 404 loads were somewhere around 2100-2200 fps, but I hear you can get 2400+ with careful loading. The rigby can get more like 2600+ if you can handle it.
The 400g has about 10% higher SD than the 300g .375" so run them both at 2600 and the .416" wins the slap contest. 'Course, it'll slap you back!

I wonder where the 2400 fps thing came from. Maybe an effective cartridge was so loaded, and gained a reputation as supoerior than "the others."
I don't know these things, but seems to me the big problem with running big bore bullets at high speeds is the bullet construction itself. You take a bulelt designed for an old BP round, or that was mainly used in doubles, then try to run it a couple hundred fps faster, it will likely disappoint.
But nowadays, seems like you could find a bullet to match your itch regardless, and that a faster bullet - designed with high velocity in mind - will always drive deeper than a slower one, AEBE.
So, yeah, I'd go with a Lott over a Winnie for just that reason. Or faster.

Bwane-be:

I think 2400 fps has been the ideal because, as you point, out, the toughest bullets hold together at that speed, and, through observation,
that's the speed that seems to have a hitting effect, along with adequate penetration, on dangerous game. Also much of this has been through observation. Find Ray Atkinson on the merits of 500 grain bullets on lion. They just work, much better then lighter bullets, and that's from Ray's observations, not some arm chari theorist, like me.

This may change, with ultra hard solids like the Impala bullets, that are light for caliber, yet long.

Another factor is recoil, and, at a certain point, probably 2400 fps in a lott of big game rifles, the increase in recoil isn't worth the much higher pressure, and little increase in bullet speed. Is it worth doubling the recoil in a 460 WBY to go from 2400 fps to 2590?

I don't think so. The 375 is comfortable at 2400 fps, and works with low pressure. The rigby was designed likewise, and so was the 404,IIRC.

Only the Lott requires really high pressure to get to it's target goal of 2350 or so, with 500 grain bullets.

I'm looking at, and playing with, a 458 Impala 300 grain bullet. I think they may well be the wave of the future.

Here's my thinking. Lee Jurras had a PH that said the only bullet you take in a 458 win are solids. Why? You load it with softs, and mama elephant decides to stomp you, and, with the bullets of the day, you couldn't stop her.

While our bullets have improved, the point is a pretty good one. I would mainly be using a rifle in this situation for self-defense, and would not want to get caught with the wrong bullet.

That said, if you are limited to just solids, and for me reasonably priced rifles, that leaves me with the 458 Lott, when CZ comes out with it, 416, or 375. I would like the biggest hole possible, and a sectional density that ensures penetration. Enter impala bullets. I can idle a 300 grain 458 Impala bullet at 2600 fps, with 375 H&H recoil. I have a solid, super hard, thats hard to take off line, and should penetrate like crazy. Even though the bullet is light, it's long, and according to my gunsmith the most over looked component of kenetic energy transfer is the length of the bullet, and surface area.

Like all theories, this one has to be tried on dangerous game, and I'll let Kobus line up someone else to do that. I do think I'll give my gunsmith a few, and let him try them on bison, and see the results.

By the way, one of the real respected forensic
ballistic guys, Fackler, came up with 2100 fps for hydrodynamic shock on humans.

I think the 2400 fps just came around through observation, and, the massive number of animals killed at velocities below that, with the 458 win mag, to compare it to.

gs

The length thing eludes me.
I can see how a longer bullet might change things, but it doesn't seem like it would penetrate better.
The same weight behind the same size hole should have to expend the same amount of energy in order to stop. I.e., it should take the same amount of animal to slow the thing down.
If anything, seems like more surface area would speed up the energy transfer, and give less penetration.
If one were having troubles with over-penetration, might be of value, but with the big bores I hadn't heard that as a major issue.

Maybe someone can explain this to me.

I think you've got it.
Surface area does allow energy transfer. The more surface area, the more energy transfer.

Now, that explains the effect on the game. The problem is using light, small, high velocity bullets, and having them penetrate.

Over penetration with existing calibers can, and has been a problem. Ray designed a 350 grain solid, 375, IIRC, for shooting buffalo in a herd.

Same with 450's in the 416. The combination of decreased velocity, increased surface area, provides more effect on the animal, and, as you suggest, slows penetration.

If you reduce bullet weight, to increase velocity, the effect on game, at least in the 458, according to Ray, is less then the slower moving, bigger, 500 grain bullets.

So even though you get more velocity, you have less surface area to transfer it, and the effect is less.
The Impala bullets, have the same surface area, but can be driven at much higher velocities, and therefore have more energy to transfer.

Idea to be more hydrodynamic energy transfer, nice, caliber size or bigger hole, reliable straight penetration, lower recoil, and perhaps up that 2400 fps target to 2600-2700, with half the recoil of the wby. In other words, you get a very flat shooting, hard hitting bullet, unlikely to deform, yet penetrates straight, with half the recoil that a comparable bullet in normal construction would be, or even a monometal bullet, of heavier material.

Guys that have used the 375 200 grain bullets on plains game say they really kill, because the energy transfer is excellent, and the velocity is much higher then the same size conventional construction bullet, plus you get a full size wadcutter hole.
End result is they say you won't ever need a 458 caliber rifle.

There are military rounds, sabots, that accomplish serious damage, using long, narrow sabots, at very high velocity.

Tank killers in particular.

In other words, these maybe the bullets that WBY should have had in the first place...

Bottom line is the concept of heavy for caliber bullets is two fold, bullet weight, and surface area to allow energy transfer. Both are desireable.

Hello Alf,

You may recall from my previous posts shortly after AR came on-line that I used to raise bison bison americanus and have shot literally hundreds of the poor brutes.

To save you from scrolling past my previous posts, here is what I found.

.338 was minimum caliber to make one shot kill to spine.

A 300 wea or 257 wea (both using original nosler partitions) even if it hit the spine perfectly did not have enough frontal area to sever spine entirely, and they would look up at you with those big brown eyes and youd have to shoot them again. As the head was worth more than the meat at that time I shied away from head shots.

This is what introduced me to the 375 and 375 improved which just took the rug out from underneath them on either spine or heart shot.

Using bitterroots they would be dead with no eye reflex by the time you walked up to them (about 30 feet) even on a heart shot.

Once I realized that the spine shot needed some frontal area to be effective I very foolishly tried 50 and 54 muzzle loader and 12 ga slug thiking bigger was better. These were not even humane on young bulls and the animals would lie down in slow motion very slowly dropping to one knee that the other and down. Very much alive!!!

I tried the 458 with facotry ammo and it was not much better.

the 460 weatherby was effective but I felt very vulnerable standing 30 feet away from a buff with my rifle up in the air like a goose hunter on recoil.

There is a sweet spot between velocity and frontal area for these guys that the 338, 358 and 375 seem to have.

The 35 whelan was more effective than the 338 by the way despite lower velocity. The 375 and 375 improved was almost instant death, or at least as close as you come to in hunting when using bitteroots, the original and still best bonded bullet.

But the 375 was effective with all bullets even total junk like the 270 gr Remington RN or original 270 hornady SP.

You are an intelligent and thoughtful hunter and Id not beat yourself up about your hunt. Its pretty hard to learn anything when you already know it all!

An open mind is a great asset to hunters and you obviously have one.

Did your wound chanel in the bison you recovered have a sphincter (pucker) like wound that closed up on itself like a low velocity FMJ RN? Where did you hit it? Sounds like you went for a heart shot with no foreleg in the way.

Tell us what happened to the first buff? Did the land owner ever recover him?

Andy

Hi Andy,
Good to see you posting again. Yes, I recall the experience on bison that you have shared here. I have come around to thinking that the new throated .375 Weatherby (only 0.375" of free-bore) is the Cat's Meow for a practical one rifle battery for the hunter's planet.

Dave Manson made a reamer for my smith and he rechambered a Winchester M70 Classic Stainless for me. I am very happy with this all-arounder that will shoot factory .375 H&H loads, in a pinch, with useful accuracy and velocity.

I assume that you found 300 grains at 2700 fps to be adequate.

Hopefully Alf will follow up on your questions, as I was curious of them too.

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