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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Is The Swift-A-Frame Better Than The Nosler Partition?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Is The Swift-A-Frame Better Than The Nosler Partition? | Login/Join |
one of us |
From my post eariler today, some seemed to suggest that the Partition preforms as good as the A-Frame. The A-Frame is bonded, the Partition is not, so it would seem the A-Frame is better. Comments please? | ||
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one of us |
Leo, I have used both bullets in my .375 H&Hs, so I can give you some comparitive results in that caliber. The 300 grain Nosler Partitions that I have recovered retained about 85% of their weight. The 300 grain Swift A-Frames have retained weights of about 95%. Both are accurate in my rifles, but the Swifts usually beat the Partitions. jim dodd ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
I have to second Jim on this based on what Ive seen in the field. I was hunting Eland with a hunter from Mexico and we glassed a herd of bachellors from a small rock outcrop, moved ahead of them and waited as they moved towards us. As the bulls came into view they were no further than 60 yards from us, I showed the hunter wich one and he shot. The Eland went down immediately and was still thrashing around and the hunter gave the Eland one more. We got up to the animal and the first shot had spined him. I asked him how that had happened because we were so close and he said he didnt know as he was holding right on the shoulder when he sqeezed off. I left to fetch the vehicle and when I returned the tracker called me over and said look at this, there was a young Acacia about 3" to 4" thick, the bullet had passed straight through and spined the Eland. He was shooting a 375 with 300grain Swift A-Frames, made me believe. This is just one of many stories. ------------------ | |||
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one of us |
One is not better than the other, as they have different applications. | |||
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| one of us |
No game experience with the Swift's but a lot with the Noslers...usually about 65% retained weight when I can recover the bullet. Never a problem I could attribute to the bullet. Accuracy is a good as I can shoot. | |||
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| one of us |
For those with experience is there more of a tendency for the partitions to exit than the A-Frames due to the A-Frames often appearing to open a littler bigger instead of the metal shedding? Mike
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| one of us |
rotr: that is 100% accurate. I have often said the slap of the hide coming back on the exit side is what kills the game with the Aframe. They stay under the skin significantly more often then the partition does. I have used both, I like both. But the reality of the terminal ballistics is that the Swift A frame is just a better bullet. All you need to do is hit some bones or solid muscle mass at high velocity one time to see the difference between the two. The Partition was, and is a brilliant design. The one which all other bullets are judged by. The Bonded partition(A frame) just goes one level higher and creates the best bullet possible. If there is a problem with the A frame it's to perfect in it's enormous mushrooms which tend not to exit. It's really one of the best possible bullets for herd shooting game becasue they don't exit as often. I have a swift that actually weighs 110% of it's original weight. How you ask? there is a chunk of Buffalo bone sticking out of the lead. The mushroom is perfect, the bullet went through the spine, scapula, and was under the skin on the exit side of a broad side shot. I love the partition but it would never have penetrated that far after the spine was hit, all the lead from the front half would have been gone and the weight would have been about 1/2 what the Aframe was. Just my opinion of course but after seeing over 100 big animals killed now with the Aframe in the last several years I see nothing that compares to the terminal performance of that bullet. Only the X bullet is close and it exits nearly every time by comparison. If My 458 Lott will shoot the X bullets I will likely use them instead because they exit so often. But for my hunting rifles I will stick with the Swift for the foreseable future. | |||
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| one of us |
My impression is the Swifts are perhaps better on Buffalo and Eland...Noslers for the rest of the stuff, I don not like Swifts on the smaller stuff like Kudu and down. The new Noslers seem to be as good as the Swifts on Buff..I have seen a swift break up on a Buffalo, and I have seen a Nolser blow off the front portion on Buffalo and effect penitration..the new 416 seem to stay together in the Nosler, but I have only seen it used on about 4 or 5 Buffalo and thats means nothing.. None of these premiums fail except on rare ocassions, seems some folks have a hard time understanding that, and base a lot on a few kills. Seems to me that could get them in trouble, but with a PH for back up, it only happens a few times a year.. ------------------ | |||
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| One of Us |
Leo M, you say the Swift is better because it is bonded???? Why is that any reason for being better. And JJ says they are better because they dont exit. I don't see any valid reasons for one being better than the other. And the slap of the hide comeing back is what kills the game? They both will kill very well and do their job if we do ours. If you want to get into nit picking this is a good place to start. I don't think you can go wrong with either of them. Makes for interesting conversation when waiting for hunting season but doesn't really solve or establish a thing. | |||
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| one of us |
Given my choice of a bullet that stops just under the far-side hide and is expanded a lot and a bullet that doesn't expand quite as much but exits, give me the bullet that exits everytime...it is the exit wound that bleeds and I think letting air in from the exit hole also contributes. | |||
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| one of us |
I have very limited experience, but right now I agree with Ray. I shot 10 animals in Africa last year using the 300 Swift A-Frame in my 375H&H at 2,525 fps. Except for the buffalo, all of the bullets I shot exited. Except for the Klipspringer (approx. 30 to 40 lbs. I think)every animal I shot ran (or tried to before I shot them again) for a good distance before going down. In each case, the first shot was a lethal hit (just about all were broadside lung shots), but each animal gave a good death sprint. Even a 40 lbs. +/- Grysbuck ran over 50 yards after the 300 grain Swift A-Frame went straight through both lungs. I think that the A-Frame hold together a little too well for the lighter skinned animals, and maybe the Nosler Partition would be a better choice for most plainsgame. Tim | |||
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One of Us |
I hunt with both, have had good experience with both, but if you make me choose for elk sized game and bigger, I have to go with the A-Frame. I shot five out of seven animals with the A Frame last year in Africa and recovered bullets from the zebra, eland and wildebeest. All perfect mushrooms, except for the wildebeest that was shot at 60 yards in the chest and deformed the bullet a bit, weighing 265grs when recovered. I disagree with JJ, in that I prefer exit holes, but then again he's had considerably more experience than me. It just stands to reason that a Swift will hold up better than the Nosler, particularly if heavy bone were struck. the choice then? whichever one your rifle likes better and be totally comfortable with either choice. jorge | |||
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This is why I am experimenting with NorthForks. I'm hoping that they will provide better expansion on light game than an A-Frame while retaining more of their weight than a Partition. Michael | |||
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| one of us |
I've seen a lot of animals shot with the partitions of all sizes, and I've seen a few fail(3 times 180's from 30-06). I've only shot a few animals with the A-frames, and they come out as advertised. I don't think the a-frames cause enough damage on smaller game. If I was to choose between the two, I would do as Ray expressed and pick the Nosler for smaller animals. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Chic, when I wrote about the slap of the hide killing the game it was in jest, Humor, not intented to be taken as fact, a joke, A silly comment, something to make fun of the lack of exits, not to be taken seriousley, does this make it more clear now? sorry for the poor attempt at humor. I'll try to be more concise and use less interesting analogies in the future for you. | |||
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| one of us |
Having used Swift A-Frames more than Partitions, I really think that in some applications, the Swift is TOO GOOD. The Swift's Mushroom is too smooth,and there are no secondary projectiles flying about unless you hit bone. I don't like the A-Frame on "smaller game" or even Kudu. They just punch a nice hole thru them, and the game runs and runs. We always seem to find the game dead, but they can go a long way even with very good shot placement. With Partitions or Hornadys, the game seems to die a lot quicker. But on Buffalo, I would prefer the A-Frame. | |||
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| One of Us |
JJ, okay I understand but don't go out of your way for me. Probably just get lost in the rubble. Terry, now that is some evidence I can bite my teeth into and from one with some vast experience. Sorry I missed your seminar. By the time we got our bearings straight and I looked at the schedule it was over. Chic [This message has been edited by Customstox (edited 04-16-2002).] | |||
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| Moderator |
I've killed about three dozen heads of game with the Swifts in .30-06 and .375H&H rifles. The Swifts always exit on broadside shots on the small stuff, and just about always on the big stuff. George ------------------ | |||
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quote: I'm not sure I understand this. I thought it was light getting inside the animal that killed it. Isn't that why big-bores work better? And why some folks have spotlights on their pick-em-ups? | |||
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Terry B, He said it all, that is exactly the problem with the Swift bullet on the smaller stuff, it is a smooth round ball and kills like a muzzle loader...that works ok on Buffalo, Eland, Zebra and Wildebeest as these are big tough critters... bottom line with me is I belive that I will just go with the Nosler, I'm very fond of them and I am not degrading the fine Swift bullet, just my present choice. I really like that Nosler penitration. ------------------ | |||
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| <jacon> |
I have used Nosler partitions for years and have had good luck with them. When I decided to hunt buffalo in Africa for the first time I bought Nosler 400 gr partitions for my 416 Rigby. The bullets shot 3/4" five shot 100 yd groups, so I was impressed, loaded up a bunch and went buffalo hunting . The buffalo I shot took two shots at about 80 yds and charged down hill and fell into a ravine below us and I shot it again in the spine at about 40 yds. At that point the buffalo expired. One of the first two bullets was found and looked like a typical partition, front gone but rear was intact. The bullet that hit the spine had completely disintegrated, with only a fairly large piece of the jacket left. Spine was blown apart, buffalo died so guess bullet did it's job although it was little disconcerting. The next buffalo on a different hunt I used Swifts and even the bullets that hit bones were intact, so for me I will use bonded bullets for buffalo in the future. | ||
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| one of us |
Some memorable shots: Elk, 7mm Mag 150 grain Nosler, three at 30-40 yards broadside. No effect at all until spine hit on third shot which downed him. Fourth shot through neck to kill it. Shot placement � stitched three in a vertical line at the back of the lungs. Mule deer � Nosler 180 grain from .30-06 at about 40 yards, behind shoulder broadside. Exited and completely broke humerus on other side. Deer leaped, fell and died on landing. In Africa last May: Zebra � 270 Swift A-Frame same as above, about 40 yards broadside into the triangle, bullet exited opposite side, no bones struck, he ran about 50-70 yards and fell dead. Impala � 270 Swift as above. About 125 yards, hit broadside in stomach. Took off running, found next morning some 400-500 yards away. Kudu � 270 Swift as above, about 20 yards, maybe a tad closer. Slightly quartering away from full broadside. Entered chest behind left leg, exited in front of right leg. Ran about 50 yards and piled up. PH asked for another directly into the chest between front legs as he lay on his side. Springbok � 180 Nosler from .30-06, about 150 yards, below and broadside, slightly quartering towards me. Bullet went through base of neck and exited behind left shoulder. Dropped in his tracks so fast his feet just folded up, he was lying basically upright with his legs underneath him. Looked like he resting with his chin out in front. Springbok � 180 Nosler from .30-06, basically same shot presentation � both were from the same hill. Bullet entered base of neck and hit shoulder joint � blew a ghastly huge hole in opposide side � about 4 � 5 inches across. Also basically dropped straight down with legs folded neatly underneath him, almost identical to the blesbok just described. Weird. Springbok � 180 Nosler from .30-06, about 125 yards broadside. Bullet entered back third of lungs. Continued to run but looked sickly. Another behind shoulder, he stopped for a few seconds and fell. Still alive when we got to him, Asst. PH put a knife through base of skull much to my chagrin. Blesbok � 180 Nosler from .30-06, about 225 yards broadside. Straight through center of lungs, absolutely no effect at all. Blesbok did not flinch, nothing. Just walked away. Found dead later with frothy red blood coming out of small exit wound. Blesbok � 180 Nosler from .30-06, about 200 yards slightly quartering. Bullet hit higher than I wanted, through neck, jugular, spine and perhaps bone fragments cut carotid. Dropped straight down, heavy venous and arterial bleeding around entrance and exit wounds. Gemsbuck � 270 A-Frame from .375, 300 long steps (275-290 yards?), spined him and he dropped at the shot. I�m thinking shot placement is more important than the actual bullet you use, as long as it cuts the tissues it�s supposed to cut. BTW, that 270 A-Frame load in my Model 70 .375 would put four into .7 to .8 inches at 100 yards. Put a new stock on it and glass bedded it, it is now good for 4 A-Frames into the .6�s and .7�s, sometimes will cut an honest � inch for 4. I�ll just keep using the A-Frame in the .375 and the Nosler in the �06. Can�t fault either of them, both work. Shot placement is the overriding factor with anything you use. | |||
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| <richard10x> |
On this side of the big pond I have used Noslers for many years with complete satisfaction on game from Pacific Coast Blacktailes through Moose in calibers from the .250 Ackley Improved Savage with the 115 gr. Partition through the .338-06 Ackley Improved with the 250 gr. Partition. I am still trying to get a handle on Barnes X bullets, seem like a good Idea but none of my barrels seem to like them. So far I have had extreme copper fouling and had to change my loading data in every case I have tried. I just sent off for a Midway moly coating setup and will give that a try to see if i can stop the fouling and get back the velocity I had to give up when loading down for the Barnes bullets. If that does not work, not much lost, the Noslers have always worked for me. | ||
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| <mike aw> |
Is the A frame better than the partition? IMO no. I think partition bullets penetrate deeper than A frames. A frames retain more weight and mushroom to a greater diameter. I use A frames in my 416 and partitions in my 338. As for the "roundness" of expanded A frames not causing enough damage, I don't buy it. I have no evidence to tell me otherwise and I've killed a fair amount of game with both. I guess it's a tossup...you won't go wrong with either one. | ||
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| one of us |
In many cases the spine of a Buffalo will destroy a soft of any kind and that I will guarentee... I have seen Swifts torn to hell, Woodleighs totally mashed out of shape and Noslers with the front blown off and the rear section look like a bent penny...There is just so much a soft point bullet can do.. You guys have made my case for me and Bjorn, use a solid for Buffalo, softs don't work 100% of the time...Spine and head is the softs delima..and they ain't much on a Buff headed South. Use a solid and take the shot as it comes, you'll kill bigger Buffalo that way. ------------------ | |||
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Mike, Let me ask you a question, since you have shot a fair amount of game with the Swifts and Nosler...Have you not noticed the smooth roundness of the mushroom and the bulge behind the mushroom and a total lack of ragged cutting, ripping edges??? Common since dictates the long extended ragged edges of the bear claw, Nosler or the Woodleighs buzz sawing through the carcass makes a more devastating wound than the round smooth ball-like expansion of a swift, don't you agree.. I have a number of both, recovered from game and just looking at them is proof enough for me, the difference in reaction on game is pretty convincing also..I would be glad to send you some photos for comparison, if you need them. I agree with Terry B, the swifts are too smooth and many times fail to leave a blood trail on smaller stuff, but do work well on Buffalo, most of the time... ------------------ | |||
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| <Mads> |
Having used the Partition in calibers from .270 win to .378 wea, and the A-frame in .375 H&H and seen Aframes in use in .416 Remington and .458 Lott, my choiche is as follows: calibers up to .340 wea I'll use Partitions, above the .338 calibers I would take the A-Frame. I think the A-frame i s a better bullet for the heavy calibers, and Partitons far better in the medium and small bores. Regarding the A-frames behaviour on smaller antilopes - well I'ven seen Puku shot on the Shoulder with .375 H&H 300 grains A-frame collaps in it's tracks. Clean one shot kills on kudu and impala with the 400 grains A-frame from Remington factory load! I think they work great! Regards Mads | ||
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| one of us |
Mads, To clarify I also have seen the Swifts perform perfectly on smaller animals on many ocassions, but I have seen the opposite also and nearly lost a couple of animals for lack of blood and some very long runs with good solid lung shots and I admit this was the exception rather than the rule, but I'm not a very forgiving person when it comes to bullet performance or failure thereof.. I agree Swifts are a fine Buffalo bullet for a soft and if I use a soft they would be one of my choices, but today I will only use GS Solids and perhaps Northfork Cup Points for Buff. ------------------ | |||
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| <zadok> |
Anybody try Partition Golds? Seems they would behave more like a Swift. | ||
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| one of us |
The Nosler partition give a better expansion at longer range while the A frame hold togeter better at shorter range. Both are very good but not as reliable at the shortest distances as monometal bullets. | |||
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| one of us |
What about a Speer Grand Slam? Would any of you consider it a close competitor to a Partition? ~~~Suluuq | |||
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| one of us |
quote: A bit like electical equipment dying when it runs out of smoke? | |||
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| <Riaan> |
I go for the Nosler on plains game, eland included. My observations concur with those that regard the Swift as �too good� for the plains game. I�m not saying that the Swift won�t kill plains game well � they do, but I regard the Noslers as just a bit more effective, and recommend them. | ||
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| one of us |
Andrea, Perhaps,perhaps not...I have seen monometal bullets pinch the hollow point shut and go off in weird directions, I have seen them break in half,I have seen them blow off all the petals many times, I have seen them bend many times, I know of one that went in and came out on the same side, and I have seen them just fail to expand ( all Barnes-X bullets ) I have not seen this happen, nor heard of it happening with Failsafes or GS bullets. I don't know if this is quality control at Barnes or just a failure trait of the monometal bullets but I have had great results with the GS HV bullets so far. My results are certainly argueable as many swear by BarnesX bullets and claim perfect results with them... ------------------ | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Is The Swift-A-Frame Better Than The Nosler Partition?
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