I am reading a book about past explorers of Africa.

Two in particular, Burton and Speke, seem to be at loggerheads with each other.

Not sure who to believe, but I suspect that Burton is lying.

Speke died of an accidental discharge.

He was stupid enough to carry a loaded double barrel shotgun while trying to clamper over a wall in the field.

The shotgun fell from his hands and discharged.

He took a full barrel below his shoulder, going up into his chest.

He died a few minutes later.

Burton claimed he committed suicide, because they were supposed to be having an argument about what had happened in Africa and the source of the Nile.

Another incident happened to both while riding a canoe in a river in Africa.

Speke said they passed by hippos and they never bothered them.

Burton, on the other hand, claimed that the hippos attacked them and threw them off!

Not much different from some of the writers of our current time.

Some go so far to glorify themselves.

Speke by all accounts was quite a hardcase.

The book I am reading is:

EXPLORERS OF THE NILE; by TIM JEAL.

In it he actually makes Speke seem to be normal compared with some of the others, notably Burton and Livingston.

Saeed,
I have read it as well. Found it as you have described. I am currently reading a Livingstone biography and some others.

Frequently, I sense and read that the early English explorers were really adventurers with nothing better to do than promote themselves. Same at times with the British attitude of "conquering" a place to civilize it, then make it the same mess they have in the UK....

It might a good idea to get all those screaming for reparations to read it too.

They will see how lovely live was under their own people!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ETq5HUeG1A


Link to "Mountains of the Moon" trailer. Enjoyed the movie when I saw it years ago.

Well after living in primitive conditions for years, dealing with disease, wild natives, wild animals etc. on returning to England I guess they had every right to promote themselves a bit and write of their far off adventures! The british were far more straightforward and fair than many of their european counterparts from what I read!

Burton and Speke were at one time friends and partners. They had a falling out, and became bitter rivals. Each one wanted to be the first one to provide proof of the source of the Nile. Both were scheduled to speak at the Royal Geographic Society. Burton had discovered the source, and had apparently sufficient proof of it. Speke would have been disgraced publicly. His "accident" occurred very shortly before the meeting, I believe the day prior. Burton was an amazing man, able to learn a new language in a very short time. His translations of some old manuscripts and books are still available today. "The Devil Drives" is an excellent read.

My biggest problem is who to believe.

I have read quite a number of books were some of these characters were mentioned, and not all in good light.

Speke was maligned by accusations that he had carnal knowledge of African women.

Allegedly, a tribal queen made him an offer that few men could refuse. Especially men who had been away from the company of women for months or even years at a time.

The queen allegedly required or requested (if there was any difference) that he have sex with two lovely young African maidens.

I want to say they were twins, but cannot recall for certain.

The queen was curious as to what color the babies would be!

Allegedly, Speke obliged.

Queen Victoria, it is said, heard the rumors, and shunned Speke upon his return to England.

I tend to believe the story, and also to believe Speke regarding his more public exploits. I think he bested Burton.

As for his trouble with the ladies, it is well known that many 19th and 20th, and maybe even 21st, century British, Continental and other explorers, hunters and adventurers have gone to Africa for more than their publicly stated reasons.

Mike I believe Arthur Neumann also had at least one child with a local.

Yes. And then we have John Taylor (although not for or with the ladies), James Sutherland and many others.

Victorian mores diminished many a man’s love of country, and sometimes spurred more lust than only his wanderlust.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
My biggest problem is who to believe.

I have read quite a number of books were some of these characters were mentioned, and not all in good light.

Then along came Capstick.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
My biggest problem is who to believe.

I have read quite a number of books were some of these characters were mentioned, and not all in good light.

Then along came Capstick.

At least Capstick's writings are entertaining.

Unlike Mark Sullivan, who likes to call himself the Mark Of Death, others know him as the Mark of a Fart, whose sole purpose in life was just to glorify himself.

In fact, having read so many stories of Africa, NON, not a single one, comes even close to the Mark of a Fart

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
My biggest problem is who to believe.

I have read quite a number of books were some of these characters were mentioned, and not all in good light.

Then along came Capstick.

At least Capstick's writings are entertaining.

Unlike Mark Sullivan, who likes to call himself the Mark Of Death, others know him as the Mark of a Fart, whose sole purpose in life was just to glorify himself.

In fact, having read so many stories of Africa, NON, not a single one, comes even close to the Mark of a Fart

Stanley probably comes closest.

Thanks for that link, Kathi. Had missed this film entirely.
Saeed, I ordered Jeal's book.

This odd partnership is truly one of the most fascinating mysteries of Colonial Africa. Was it a suicide or murder? Who knows? I've read a lot of books about both of them and have a lot more in the library to go. Not ready to cast a vote just yet. But after I've read all that is available, I've thought about writing just one more book about it.
It's really fascinating.

Saeed,

I don't know who to believe either. Doesn't mean he was lying, but I think Speke was at least a bit odd.

I believe there was an issue about requiring the shooting of pregnant females so that the fetuses could be eaten, but don't swear me to that. Again, I have quite a bit on this odd pair and haven't reviewed it in some years.

Like everything one reads, it all depends on who is writing.

The present book seems to side with Speke.

Hell, if it fascinates you about those guys
playing with the opposite race.

Just look at the hollywood mixes. OR just stand
on the local corner and watch folks going by.

George

Extract from the book.

In January 1867, shortly after the man carrying the expedition's chronometers had slipped and fell, damaging these vital clocks and guaranteeing that all Livingstons future calculations for longitude would be inaccurate, his medicine case was stolen by a deserter.

With most of his party ill with malaria and dysentery, the second loss struck Livingston as a death sentence. But despite this, and the rains making it increasingly difficult, the doctor was focused again and excited.

He was heading for an unknown lake which he believed would be found to feed a river flowing into the southern end of Lake Tanganyika.

This lake might prove to be the source of the Nile.

On the 16th January, he described a typical day's progress:

"The rain as usual made us halt early. We roast a little grain and boil it, to make believe it is coffee...Ground all sloppy, oozes full and over flowing - feet constantly wet...Rivulets can only be crossed by felling a tree on the bank and letting it fall across...Nothing but famine and famine prices. The people living on mushrooms and leaves. We get some elephant meat from the people, but high is no name its condition. It is bitter but prevents the heartburn."

Gad!

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
Hell, if it fascinates you about those guys
playing with the opposite race.

Just look at the hollywood mixes. OR just stand
on the local corner and watch folks going by.

George

Is it my imagination or does almost every TV commercial here in the States have a mixed race couple? Is Hollywood engaging in social engineering again? Not that there is anything wrong with mixing it up with a woman from a different race: beautiful women come from all over!

I believe it was Capstick who said: "Never ruin a good story with facts!"

Livingston.


On 25 August 1872, he started on his journey, heading towards Lake Tanganyika. It was blisteringly hot, and almost at once a series of mishaps occurred. His best donkey was killed by the tsetse, which also accounted for his ten cows after they had been allowed to stray into a belt of the dreaded fly. Since milk was the only food that restored his health when he had diarrhoea, these misfortunes did not augur well.

In the heat his porters became exhausted while climbing in and out of valleys, as they hugged the eastern shore of Lake Tanganyika. Soon their feet were burned and blistered by the soil. Livingstone himself was ill with fever and with dysentery by mid-October and three weeks later he was suffering from anal bleeding.

With the rains approaching, he should have abandoned his plan to make a circuit of Lake Bangweulu and its surrounding swamp, but he had been as sick as this before and had suffered far worse conditions in the past, so he saw no reason not to press on.

Serious food shortages in November obliged him to abandon his attempt to pass to the east and then the south of Bangweulu, since local Africans reported even less food in that direction. So he followed his local guide directly to the northern side of the lake as the rains broke.

This journey of 170 miles took a month, and with streams bursting their banks and canoes being needed to cross the larger rivers, he was lucky that it did not take longer.


Unfortunately, when he had visited the lake in 1868, a damaged chronometer had led him to take inaccurate longitudes, making the lake appear far bigger than it actually was. He therefore believed he was far to the east of the position to which the guide said he had brought him, so he decided that the man was lying and refused to take his advice about the best way round the lake.

So instead of heading south-west as advised (which would have taken him rapidly along the western side of the lake directly to the outflowing Luapula), he headed east, determined in future to ignore African advice. It would prove to be a fatal decision.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I am reading a book about past explorers of Africa.

Two in particular, Burton and Speke, seem to be at loggerheads with each other.

Not sure who to believe, but I suspect that Burton is lying.

Speke died of an accidental discharge.

He was stupid enough to carry a loaded double barrel shotgun while trying to clamper over a wall in the field.

The shotgun fell from his hands and discharged.

He took a full barrel below his shoulder, going up into his chest.

He died a few minutes later.

Burton claimed he committed suicide, because they were supposed to be having an argument about what had happened in Africa and the source of the Nile.

Another incident happened to both while riding a canoe in a river in Africa.

Speke said they passed by hippos and they never bothered them.

Burton, on the other hand, claimed that the hippos attacked them and threw them off!

Not much different from some of the writers of our current time.

Some go so far to glorify themselves.

Writers have to write. If your writing about ones own life why wouldn't one put oneself in the best light.

Time tends to change one perspective.

A lot of gun related suicides are written off as accidental discharges.

Because there is no other hard proof they were not.

There is a lot of difference between writing facts, and making things up, which are so untrue, just to show yourself in glorified terms.

Mark Sullivan is the best one I know.

He goes so far as to denigrate his fellow professionals.

He shames his clients.

To me, that is the ultimate proof of an individual who has no life, no character, no integrity, no professionalism, no honesty.

Basically he is just plain SICK!

quote:

Originally posted by umzingele:
I believe it was Capstick who said: "Never ruin a good story with facts!"

Capstick may have "borrowed" this saying from Canadian author, Farley Mowat. He famously stated that one should "Never let the facts get in the way of a good story". He had written a lot of books about the Canadian North and in the North he is almost universally known as "Hardly Knowit".

Fascinating pair. Like I say, want to do a lot more research on them. At least one of them appears to be a scoundrel.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Fascinating pair. Like I say, want to do a lot more research on them. At least one of them appears to be a scoundrel.

Depends on who you read.

Either is an angel, or a monster!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Fascinating pair. Like I say, want to do a lot more research on them. At least one of them appears to be a scoundrel.

Depends on who you read.

Either is an angel, or a monster!

There is much truth in that.

That is why we must read with a sharp and critical eye.

The problem with the current generation is that they are ignorant of historical sources.

To learn anything in this world, one must read, and live, deeply and widely.

And doubt everything, and test everything against one's own experience, and only believe half of the result.

Mark Twain is also credited with stating that one should never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

quote:

Depends on who you read.

Either is an angel, or a monster!

Saeed, you hit the nail on the head with that one.
One of them was a scoundrel and perhaps a murderer.

A dozen or so years ago I was tired of the practice of law and had researched Ph.D. programs on African history. The leading authority on colonial history in East Africa is at Harvard, but their program required proficiency in at least one African language and one European language in addition to English to even apply. My Swahili is rudimentary at best and while my son is fluent in German, I'm not, so that was a serious impediment, not to mention my age.

But shortly thereafter, I met a young lawyer who is currently my law partner and that convinced me to stick to what I know. But I'm still fascinated by the topic.

I love reading of our past history, and by ours I mean all humans and what they have done.

Many years ago, we were staying at a private skiing lodge in.

It was run by an English chef and his wife.

The place was a very old monastery in Serre Chevalier, in the French Alps.

I asked him if he knew where Hannibal crossed the Alps with his elephants, and like almost anyone in the Alps, he said, "probably very close to here".

That got me interested in Hannibal, so I looked into getting a book about him.

There are hundreds, probably thousands, on Hannibal.

Very hard to pick.

I tried to do a bit more research.

Finally I found an article written by a university professor.

In which he said Hannibal had a scribe with him.

The scribe had written 49 volumes of their campaigns.

Somehow all these volumes were lost.

150 years later, they found 13 of these volumes, non was complete.

So all we know about Hannibal comes from these partial 13 volumes.

He was supposed to have had a very large army, like 70,000-100,000 soldiers.

How did he feed them?

I asked a history professor he visited me here to shoot.

He said "well, may they did not have that many soldiers"

He fed them with Roman Meal bread, of course.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...20and%20snack%20bars.

Lavaca, yes the problem with African History is that it is verbal and in the vernacular.... ie stories repeated over the centuries and not in English....

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The book I am reading is:

EXPLORERS OF THE NILE; by TIM JEAL.

In it he actually makes Speke seem to be normal compared with some of the others, notably Burton and Livingston.

If it is as good as Teal's book on Stanley I need to add it to my list.