Well I guess Im going to have to return the record book I borrowed to my friend. My question is two part. First do you all prefer Rowland Ward or SCI? Does it really make a difference? I know the scoring is a little different. Second, the leather bound editions are great for the home but is there a paperback or cheap version I can carry around and not have to worry about abusing? I didnt see anything like that on the SCI website. I did see a sort of pocket edition on Rowland Ward's.

The SCI Record book comes in paperback. I think it is around $60.00. It comes in two editions "Africa" and "All Continents Except Africa".

Mike,

I personally like RW a bit more as their minimum standards are generally higher and, obviously, there are entries included from forever ago rather than just the more recent stuff. It is neat to see that a top ten animal was taken in such and such area in the 19th century and has stood for that long as a record. I also prefer the measuring system that RW uses on animals like cape buffalo. SCI measures around the curve and this almost encourages hunters to take younger animals with soft bosses because they will score better as thay have yet to wear down their horn tips. RW, of course, just measures the outside spread so older or even ancient worn down animals may still make the book or even score extremely well as the length of their horn tips do not influence the score. As for paperback RW books . . . I don't think so. There are little paperback pocket publications that show the top trophy or two in both RW and SCI.

Hope this helps,

JohnTheGreek

Rowland Ward Publications publish a brilliant little book called Rowland Ward's Sportsmans handbook which contains lots of interesting gen about hunting and also the #1 & 2 of each species and minimum measurement requirements along with methods of measurement and contact for RW measurers.

I don't have a web address for Rowland Ward, but if you visit my website (see below) you will find a link from there to Rowland Wards in Jo'burg.

I can only echo the sentiments that RW standards are generally higher than SCI and also you don't have to be a member to be able to submit a trophy. However SCI tends to be more popular with the US market.

Hope that helps

Shakari,

It's Rowland Ward

George

I am a Master Measurer in the SCI system, so perhaps you will forgive my preference for it over Rowland's. The SCI measuring system tries to credit all the mass and length of the individual trophy species; it is organized around gross measurements vice the net measurements some systems use (which value symmetry over crediting the animal for whatever it grew).

The biggest difference between SCI and RW is RW allows one-horned animals to be entered while most such "damaged" animals will not make the cut for SCI.

I don't think the SCI measuring method for Cape buff makes hunters shoot this animal or that animal, rather it is most usually the PH who says "Take him!".

The African Hunter Pocket Shot Placement Handbook has trophy measurements as well as drawings of internals. I have some on hand if you need one.

jim dodd

Hi Jim,

Seems we've been there and done that with this issue and I think you are right on the symmetry issue. I have always thought that was a bit odd of B&C to do that but whatever . . . CIC in Europe offers additional "beauty points" if I recall and that just seems terribly subjective.

Now, with regard to the one horned animal issue . . . I still don't think you would REALLY let a one-horned 70" kudu pass by you into the bush this season or , having hypothetically shot it, deny that it is one of the most important trophies to ever come out of Africa.

I have one of those African Hunter shot placement guides and that was the title I was trying to think of in my first post. That really is a good little book isn't it.

Best Regards,

JohnTheGreek

I think that most of the SCI methods of measurement are generally better than RW, but I personally prefer the higher standards of RW.

As to the Buff measurement system I reckon there's something to be said for both.

The animal I least like to measure is the Black Wilderbeest, and I personally would like to see those measured in the European way by liquid displacement. As you can give the same set of horns to 5 measurers and will get 5 differing results........ what do you think Jim?

Shakari brings up a very good point. The liquid or displacement method is, for all practical purposes, the best measure of an animals horns.

Ironically, it is the method that is the least used. At least here in the US.

For antlered game, this would be the best method to evaluate exactly how much horn an animal has. No deduction for kickers, trash or non-symetrical points.

No bonus given for spread or "beauty" either.

Steve, It was the pocket sportsmans guide I was talking about. I just thought SCI would have something similar.

I did know RW allowed one horned animals. I thought that kind of odd for a record book trophy. I have no problem with it from a personal point. It just seemed like a contradiction in terms.

I can see how the water displacement would give a true picture of mass. That would be good in that regard, but I think there is more to a trophy than just mass. Perhaps a hybrid of the two methods would be even better.

[ 06-11-2003, 04:34: Message edited by: Mike Smith ]

I think that RW has more credibility as they have remained low key and set higher standards or so it seems...

About anything you shoot will make SCI someplace, and for that you pay $100. I have a problem with that as it seems to me that its set up to make money...I know guys that talk of making 164th place in the records etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but thats how it appears to me.

I believe record books should be set up to study the size, location of kills, and to provide information about a species and where the gene pools are located as opposed to pumping up some pompas jackasses ego as is the case in some but not all cases with records..so much the shame of it...Making the top of the book has become a luxury of the rich and famous.

Anyway the only person that sees YOUR name in the record book is YOU, nobody else cares a flip...except those at the $100 per plate presention awards...I have observed it become a three ring circus over the past 40 years.

I'm not at all sure that my view is correct, it is up for arguement, but make your case with fact not spin...I have heard all the spin.

Presently this is the way I see things today and it has not always been the case..I'm open to change of mind, if fact I would welcome it, for I feel like it is just another abuse by big business, powerful people in powerfull places...

For someone that kills a record breaking game animal I wish them well, if it is done fair and square, but how is that possible today from an equality standpoint, I just can't see how.

Well, I hope I havn't offended anyone with my view, and that's all it is, my view alone..

Unfortunately Ray, I pretty much agree with you. It actually has been my biggest problem with SCI from the beginning. Now, I am very proud of that bushbuck I shot. Enough so that I am going to enter it. I however am the first one to admit that it is as much luck as anything when you get a big one. On the other side of the coin your statement sounds like the "big" trophies are reserved for the high rollers. Is this a true statement?

/

JohnTG,

Yeah, I think it is a great little book too!

Steve,

Measuring antlered game is way harder than the black W'beest. The antlers with the most difficult features are those such as red deer with "crowns". Generally with more than one measurer the scores will cluster pretty close together, unless you make a procedural error. I usually measure a head two, three or more times to make sure I have got it right. I did a top 10 brown bear recently that I spent an hour on just because it was so big.

Ray,

It is $25 or $30 to enter an animal in the record book. Singles entries end up costing more than if you enter several animals, and sometimes SCI runs a special (like just before they close the entries for a new record book printing).

Alf,

Those are a flock of opinions, we should get together over a scotch or three to discuss. Do you ever come to the SCI Convention?

jim

SCI recently kicked out the #1 Roosevelt Elk for unfair chase, so that gives them a little credibility.
I would rather spend $100 for a Springbok than get my name in the record book, and there lies the beauty of it. If you light cigars with century notes, go for it.
SCI has plucked the Golden Goose when we charge members for data we all would like to have.
I guess you could look at it as a donation..

One of the things I like about the SCI Record Book is that is lists the Outfitter, Guide/PH, date the animal was taken, and the area the animal was taken. I find that information to be invaluable when it comes to hunt planning.

[ 06-11-2003, 08:40: Message edited by: mikeh416Rigby ]

/

Jeez Ray, can you believe it? We keep agreeing with each other! I think you're dead right.

Jim, I didn't make it clear, but I was referring to African game....... those palmated antlers you guys get in NA must be a nightmare to measure.

But most of all, I believe that a trophy should be remembered for the fun of the hunt and not for the lenght of horn........ that is especially important to me with buffalo. When I meet a hunter who has shot a smaller than average Buff I always think, yeah, but it's your Buff and it doesn't matter how small and ugly it is, it's YOUR BUFF........... hell, I'm small and ugly myself!

Personally, I don't charge a client any more for a larger than average trophy. It's the same cost for a world record as it is for a good representative of the species. Many of the best trophies my clients have shot have been at the least expensive camps with the least expensive trophy fees.......... I won't bore you with costs, they're all on my website for those that are interested...........

Going for a single really big trophy can easily mean you have to make a dedicated hunt just for that animal.

For example an outfitter I book for has an over-60" kudu hunt. The conditions are you have to book this 10-day hunt in April (the kudu rut for that area of RSA), and there aren't really any other animals in the area. The terrain is rough, and the hunter has to be dedicated and in good shape. The hunt description sounds more like sheep or goat hunting in the Rockies actually. If you persevere you will probably get an opportunity to shoot a 64" or 65" kudu.

This area has good year-round food crops for the kudu, and the stock there have great genetics for horn size: the horns go way out before starting the curls. It is private ground, and only a few animals are killed each year. I have seen two of them, but I haven't done this hunt myself.

Whether you go on this hunt or take a 55" or so kudu on a more conventional plains game hunt is up to the hunter. I was fine with the kudu I shot in Namibia that is a tad under 58" -- and yes I entered it in the book.

jim

Thanks Steve. I understand you dont have a sliding scale for trophies. I also understand and believe you that the chances are the same on any of your areas. I want to clarify what I was getting at. We all know there are outfitters who use sliding scales for throphy fees. The other issue is say you as a ph have 6 hypothetical properties to hunt. You know from experience and scouting that property "A" dosnt have kudu over 50 inches. Property B has gemsbuck but not over 35 inches. Property C has both going upto 60 and 42 inches. Now mind you Im only talking in theory and not personally. Do ph's, outfitters etc steer the high dollar client to Property C and the rest of us to A and B. As clients we still get nice animals and a good hunt. However the "book" trophy animals go to those with deep pockets. I really dont know if this goes on or not. I would like to think it dosnt but being cynical....

Mike,
To answer your post request:

Lets take the search for the 100 lb. elephant, that could easily run to a million dollars before you shot old Timbo....Now can the average American expect to compete in that catagory for his world class trophy elephant short of dumb luck...I think not, it is reserved for the rich and powerfull. That is why the Shaw or Iran, Elgin Gates, and even Jack O'Conner backed by Elgin Gates and others always harvested the Wby trophy etc. as but one example..Same with Elmer Keith and others who had the bucks or the backing.

How about the wonderfull Bongo or even the Lord Derby Eland, not to mention bidding a small fortune on a desert ram....How many times can Mr. average African hunter take one of those trips, and if he can take 10 of them he will probably get the head of a lifetime.

The average guy on this board cannot compete with the folks that hunt these animals..Thats life, I accept it just like I accept that I cannot drive a Lambergini or don't live in a palace...

Welcome to the real world, a lot of world class trophies are actually sold by their quality in the US, Canada and Africa...I know PH's that have spotted a outstanding world class trophy and called the client to come and shoot it...Happens all the time and you really cannot blame the PH or Safari Company trying to feed a family and a host of hungry kids. Can't blame the client either...but most of us cannot compete in that competition for the fabled 70" Kudu or that black maned lion...I know clients that have a standing order for a 100 lb. elephant and/or a true black maned lion at any cost within certain limitations...

I'm amazed at how little most folks know about the business aspect of the hunting world...Just like everything else, it never seems to be what it appears....You do get what your willing to "pay" for in many circumstances.

I have tried over the years to disconnect myself from this part of the business, and I suspect it has cost me plenty of money to do so...but I just feel like I don't want to be a part of that, at least for the most part...Its not wrong, its not illegal, and it is acceptable behavior, but it gives me personally a feeling of guilt of some sort, and I have simply choosen not to get involved in trying to deliver a specific trophy to a specific individual, and prefer to let whoever gets that trophy to have him at the going rate, set by the Safari Company and I'm not alone in this philosophy, many companies do the same....Its a personal thing and has nothing to do with anyone elses agenda, they have every right to do as they please, it called freedom of choice and that is more important, than anything we're discussing here...

I hope this claifys my stance and my above posts and answers your question at least to some degree.....At any rate it is the best I have to offer at the moment.

Actually Ray, It is a damn good answer. I am the first to admit I am pretty naive about the buisness aspects of the industry. Your answer sheds light on the practices I was describing. This as well as the fact that someone with lots of money aboviously has lots more opportunity. It is two different facets of the industry. The only problem I have with it is when someone sells "a new number 1" trophy at some exorbitant price. Part of it is jealousy, as you say most of us cant compete on that level. The other is just how fair chase is it if you can market it like that?

I don't enter my trophies in the book any more, unless the PH or Outfitter requests it. I don't hunt for a number or position, I hunt only for myself. After all, I'm the one pulling the trigger, paying the trophy fee, and taxidermy fee. I anyone shoots a number 1 ranking animal-good for them. Maybe I'll stumble into one some day, as I did when I shot the #2 Blesbok. It was just dumb ass luck. It doesn't make me a better or worse hunter than anyone else. I just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

I agree that getting a big animal like that is as much luck as anything else. OR at least it should be. It is as you say being in the right place at the right time. Any good representative animal is a trophy to me. Hell, any animal I take period including meat animals. That dosnt mean Im not proud of the exceptional ones I or anyone else has taken. I just wish there was a way to do this a little differently. One thing I can always say about everyone here at AR is I certainly get an education. There is such a wealth of knowledge. The scope of the expertise and experience here is as good or better than you will get anywhere.

Yep, Daddy always said it didnt matter how good you were, there is no substitute for blind ass luck. Very nice piece of bacon by the way.

[ 06-13-2003, 02:09: Message edited by: Mike Smith ]