Dear AR Members,

Just to refresh hunters memories when hunting in South Africa, or overnighting in South Africa with firearms as aplicable /

This is the message I rec'd very recently from PHASA

Regards, Peter
----------------------

Herewith the requirements for the temporarily importation of firearms, please make sure the clients have the necessary documentation.

IMPORTANT!! Requirements along with the SAP 520 are the following:

1. Passport

2. Return Airline Ticket

3. Proof of Ownership

Firearm licenses, documentary proof, etc. For USA Citizens a Customs Declaration Form 4457, that is officially stamped, is essential.

4. Proof of Export

Note: Clients must obtain documentation from an official government institution, police/customs, for legally exporting firearm(s). This must be written in English and state the following:
“It is hereby certified that the owner of the firearm(s) M (state particulars) with calibre (state the calibre), serial number (state the serial number) and type (state type of weapon) is hereby authorized to temporarily export the above firearms(s) from country (state the country).

5. Invitation Letter from the Hunting Outfitter -This is a letter from the Hunting Outfitter/company.

To be written on an official letterhead of the Hunting Outfitter/company;
With the PH’s and Outfitters details to include their name(s), surname(s), license number(s) and in which province(s) they are registered;

This letter must state for what type of hunt the client is invited and what calibers will be used on the hunt.

State where the hunt(s) will take place – name of farm(s) and district(s).

This letter must also state that the mentioned weapons will only be used for hunting purposes on the mentioned properties;

State the duration of the hunt;

This letter must be signed by the Hunting Outfitter/company and dated.

Firearms will be physically inspected to ensure the serial number(s) match those of the licenses (proof of ownership) and the application form. Ammunition will also be inspected.

Now we need Proof of Export?!!!!! I'm done with South Africa

mikeh416Rigby

I might stand corrected OTHER ( Steve, AKA Shakari or esteemed Africa guests) will know for sure ...

BUT that referance about (proof of export) may ONLY refer to (NON USA) hunters as I believe the 4457 form you guys use is acceted by the SA authorities and considered AS PROOF of ownership/export combined ???

So maybe DONT PANIC yet

I have only presented the overview exactly as it arrived on my desk/computor

I was told while there that for US citizens the 4457 was ok other citizens had to have the proof of export. All worked out fine for me 1 month ago.

Just returned a couple of days ago and I can tell you to stress to your PH the importance of the Invitation letter containin ALL the information Peter has listed.

Our PH didn't have his PH # (only his Outfitter #) on ours and we were threatened with having our rifles confiscated if we could not find that number. Luckily our PH was outside Customs and a security girl was willing to escort my wife outside to obtain the number.

There were only 20-25 hunters in line and the last of our party got out of registration after 4 1/2 hours. Pretty disgusting considering we had no problems and had remidied the PH # problem. Air 2000 didn't help any one else there as they were kept in line with the rest of us. Then a female police commander with 3 stars on her shoulder boards showed up and all work with the public stopped for over an hour while they sat in the room and chatted. Several hunters missed their connections to other cities.

The Police Inspector (I have names, ID numbers, dates, and times) was very rude and abrupt with the hunters in line and threatened us repeatedly with confiscation if our forms didn't match the example on the board exactly word for word. Then when we received our permits, they had misspellings, missing serial #s, and numerous other mistakes contained therin.

I am a Police Captain/Pilot, in charge of officers in a mostly regulatory, non-criminal environment so I was trying to treat the officers as I expect to be treated and respectfully comply with their process. I, and those in my command, routinely deal with the public in a confusing regulatory environment of fish, game and natural resources laws. If the officers or pilots in my command ever treated the non-violating public who are respectfully trying to comply with rules like we were treated, they would be standing tall in front of our Major and I, and be plenty sorry for their actions.

This was my 3rd trip to RSA with firearms and I can say if this process isn't figured out so huntrers can complete the process in a timely manner soon, it will be my last.

4457 is currently acceptable as proof of export.

I've just received my briefing from PHASA and they also say that it's advisable to get the import permit issued by the CFR BEFORE the clients arrive in the country and that the checks then take just a few minutes per client. - That's what we do and our clients (so far) have waited a maximum of 20 minutes. In fairness PHASA have been telling their members how to do this for over a year and I can only assume that any outfitter whose clients are still waiting hours are doing something wrong. - In which case it's the outfitter who's in the wrong rather than anyone else. It could be that they're not members of PHASA or are just ineffecient. Which might possibly suggest a bad choice of outfitter?

I'll post that part of the briefing a little later today.

Chopperguy,

If you would like to e-mail me names, dates & experiences etc. I'll be happy to pass them onto where the'll do the most good. BUT you need to do it ASAP. There's a PHASA/GOVT meeting in the next day or two and details are needed NOW. - Thanks.

The SAPD advises that outfitters try to get the temporarily import permits before the client arrives from CFR as the process at the airport for such importations takes +- 2 minutes per person – “check and goâ€.

What does "proof of ownership" mean ? I assume that is referring to your gun. If so, does the 4457 suffice, or do we now have to have a sales reciept for the rifle ?

I've been through the process and have read postings regarding bringing guns into or through SA. Something doesnt make sense.

I fail to understand how someone is waiting in line for 3-4 hours and we have others claim that it only takes a few minutes. Based on the system in place I cant believe someone only waits in line a few minutes. Between passing through customs, fetching the bags, the guns and waiting in line the process is at a minimum 30 minutes or longer.

Everyone gets off the Atlanta flight the same time. Group A has their permits approved in advance(they may or may not use a service), Group B uses 2000 or another service, Group C has no clue at all.

Two people from Group C hit the line first, followed by some from B and A and more from C and so on and so forth. It takes 30-45 minutes on average for a C person to complete their permit and only 2 are handled at a time.

How are the A's making it through the line in a few minutes and the B's in less than 15 minutes? How are they leap frogging over the others in Line? Does their wife or the service stand in line while they fetch their guns and bags? Are they tipping the permit takers and being moved to the front? Are they not including the time they wait in line?

Another scenario, all 50 guys getting off the plane use a service. Whos up first and how did they get first?

Someone please explain.

TNJohn, I can tell you my experience last Aug. I used Air2000 and was met at the gate by one of their reps. There was already a line formed at the SAPS office by the time we found my guncase. After telling the the "cop" I alrready had my import papers, we were immediately wisked to the front of the line. No tips involved. The total time I was in the SAPS office was less than 5 minutes.

All this hassel is a red flag.



Just don't go to South Africa.

I just went through all the process in Johannesburg. It was a big pain. I know that some have posted that they were wisked along by the air 2000 and optima people. That may be true, but when I went through they all waited in the same line that I did with there assigned "agent" until they got up to the front of the line. The police did not take them any faster than they did me or the other people in line. I am not knocking there service or trying to insult anyone I am just stating my experience. I think if you have a good PH or Outfitter that keeps up with the latest changes and makes sure your required paperwork is all correct in advance then you will have no trouble. There were several people in line that did have trouble and did not have the correct or required paperwork. I just am very thankful that I had a very thurough outfitter.

Nothing has changed in Africa, its always been a pain, the secret is never use your since of humor, and be polite to the officials and this too shall come to pass....If all else fails act like your retarded, they think thats catching, and will pass you right through! I know some on this board that could easily handle that!

make that lose your since of humor..guess I gotta start reading my posts...

There were some comments earlier about the SAPS office being moved to larger quarters to accomodate large numbers of hunters in a more expeditious fashion. Steve, any word on how that's going?

It seems that I get more STUPID with age ....

Now if I was IN CHARGE @ JIA (ha bloody ha) and of cource if my goal was efficiency and customer satisfaction ( dream on Peter ) then this is what I would consider ////

At the Police Security counter I would in fact have (TWO LINE UP's) or Queues as us British educated SOB's say ....

Now the one (LINE UP) would ONLY be for those whom have had their paper work/permits already applied for and processed PRIOR to their arrival in SA

The (second line up) would be ONLY for those whom are going to apply for their permit UPON arrival, in fact if they ( the Police) can spare three people for a couple of hours then MAYBE even have (2 LINE UPS) for the hunters whom arrive WITHOUT permits, and one for those with the pre-approved permits

In fact (theoretically) the line up for those with pre-approved permits should move very quickly SO when that line was cleared then the FREE POLICE OFFICER could then move over to help out the other two line ups for those processing permits upon arrival

I knew I should not even have suggested this solution as it is toooooo complicated

Peter

I'm confused, again!
I thought if you used one of the "professional ticket agent helpers" you went to the head of the line, saving hours of time. Is this assumption incorrect?
If incorrect, why should I pay them for standing in line behind Joe Dum Shit who knows nothing about the current gun regulations in RSA?
I agree, two lines, one for completed paperwork and one for incomplete paper work.
I won't go back to RSA because of the hassle, so, its immaterial to me anyway.

Old Sarge,

The plan was for the Police firearms office to move to a larger area - but I'm not sure if that's happened yet. I believe the move was supposed to happen sometime in June or July - but Africa being Africa and airports being airports they might not have committed themselves to which year! .....but I'll try to find out more on Monday.

The idea is to do pretty much as Peter suggests. One queue for people who have their permits already pre-issued so that all that's needed is a quick check of the serial number and a ammo count and a second queue for those that have all the paperwork but don't have a pre-issued import permit and a third queue for those that don't have the correct documentation and they'll be there forever!

As to the courier services, I believe the situation is that they meet the clients at aircraft side and if everything is (pre) prepared as it should be and the import licence has already been issued then they go to the head of the queue and the client usually only has to wait a few minutes. However, if something isn't in order then they have to join the queue like everyone else.....You might think this is a rare occurance but they can only do their best and if the outfitter or the client fails to provide them with everything they need then their hands are tied the same as everyone else. It's not unknown for clients to arrive with a different rifle to the one specified on the forms....

All that said, the act has been in force for almost a year now and the good outfitters have got it sussed out and know exactly what is required. Those that don't are stuffing up and if they're stuffing up on the rifle import then (to me) it indicates they're second raters at best........... If for example these guys aren't aware they have to provide outfitters & PH numbers (after almost a year of being told by Govt & PHASA etc) one must ask oneself will they be doing the other paperwork correctly. If they don't then it might (for example) mean a delay or problems in exporting trophies etc further down the line. As far as I'm concerned even if people give clients a good hunt (and that's the easy part) but don't have ALL their paperework in order and there's a delay either with firearms or trophy export etc then they haven't been effecient. If they haven't been effecient then they need to improve their service level....... But as I've said before, you don't get what you don't pay for.........

Why do I get the impression the South African Government is trying to make life so difficult for hunters?

I think I will take off South Africa from the short list of countries I am ever likey to hunt if these silly proceedures continue!

In reading the regulations, it appears that different application and condition requirements exist between Import/Export Permits and In-transit Permits. I am leaving for Namibia on Thursday. My host in Namibian nomenclature is a Master Hunting Guide. He has sent an invitation letter complying with the requirements outlined on the Namibian Professional Hunting Association that reads as follows:

Invitation Letter from the Hunting Outfitter
This is supporting documentation from the Hunting Outfitter/company with whom the client will be hunting, to include full name of company, full contact details and address, dates and location where the client will be hunting and confirming that the applicant will be using the specific firearms as applied for.

However, he did not include his Master Hunting Guide License Number-I am not certain if he even receives a number in association with a Master Guide License or certification in Namibia. I will try to secure the number if a number exists.

My situation seems to require an In-Transit Permit and the requirements for an In-Transit Permit appear as follows:

Application regarding in-transit permit
61. (1) A person who applies for an in-transit permit contemplated in Chapter 8 of the Act must, if requested thereto by the Registrar, in addition to the requirements of regulation 13, submit –
(a) proof of authority to export the firearm and ammunition from the country of origin: Provided that a customs clearance document or any other officially issued document which serves as authority to remove the firearm from that country must be regarded as sufficient compliance;
(b) proof of authority to import the firearm and ammunition into the country of final destination if that country issues such authority before the arrival of firearms in the country;

(c) particulars of the intended transport route and mode of transport and the proposed port of entry and exit and likely date of the entry and exit;
(d) a certified copy of the licence, permit, authorisation or any proof acceptable to the Registrar, confirming the lawful possession of the firearm and ammunition by the person requiring the carrying of the firearm and ammunition in transit through the Republic of South Africa;
(e) a computer printout or a typed list of the firearms and ammunition indicating the quantity, type of action, manufacturer’s serial number, model and calibre of the firearm and quantity, type and calibre of ammunition;
(f) an end user certificate as contemplated in section 17 of the National Conventional Arms Control Act, 2002 (Act No. 41 of 2002) when the firearm or ammunition is intended for resale in the country of final destination; and
(g) a consignment note of the firearms and ammunition to be carried in transit through South Africa.


Conditions in respect of in-transit permits
63. The Registrar may impose the following conditions in respect of a person who applies to carry a firearm or ammunition in transit through the Republic of South Africa:

…

(2) a person who will carry in transit through the Republic of South Africa firearms or ammunition for personal use, may apply for an in-transit permit either to the Office of the Central Firearms Register directly or to the Designated Firearms Officer at the place designated as a port of entry in terms of the Immigration Act, 2002 (Act No. 13 of 2002) where the applicant will enter the Republic of South Africa;
(3) an in-transit permit may only be issued if the applicant can provide sufficient documentary proof that the firearms or ammunition may lawfully be imported into the country of next destination;
(4) the Registrar may, for security reasons, require that the holder of an in-transit permit make use of a firearm transporter to transport the firearms and ammunition through the Republic of South Africa;

(5) the Registrar may, for security reasons, determine the port of entry and exit, the route to be followed through the Republic of South Africa, the method of conveyance or transport and safety measures that must be met;
(6) where the holder of an in-transit permit need to store the firearms or ammunition for any period of time in the Republic of South Africa, such storage must conform to the requirements for storage of firearms and ammunition as provided for in regulation 67;
(7) the firearms or ammunition must at all times, except when stored as determined in regulation 63(1)(d), be under the direct supervision of the holder of the in-transit permit or persons whose particulars are indicated on the permit by the Registrar; and
(8) firearms or ammunition which are possessed under an in-transit permit may not, for whatever reason, be used in the Republic of South Africa.
Information in respect of import, export and in-transit permits
64. An import, export and in-transit permit must contain the information as indicated on the applicable form prescribed in Annexure “Aâ€.


Consequently, I will try to get a number from my host in Namibia, but also have sufficient information to attempt to secure an in transit permit.

If this does not work, I guess they can have my Browning A-Bolt with the ugly boss on it with a leupold vari-x II on it. My tastes have changed since I bought the rifle, but it seems to be the perfect rifle to take in this situation. I must admit it shoot very small groups.

I will let you know what happens when I return.

Thanks,

Todd

I got back from hunting in RSA a couple of weeks back. Prior to going, I moaned about the need to use Air2000 but when I arrived in Joburg, and saw the chaos, I was very glad I did.

A rep contracted to Air2000 met me at the point the airport bus dropped me at the terminal. Apparently Air2000 sub contract "the meet and greet" to people who have permission to be "airside"..

The rep first took me to the general baggage area where I waited for my bags and he went off and got my rifle case. When he came back he escorted me to the area outside the SAPS office.

There were a lot of hunters milling about here and it looked utter chaos. The SAP office looked quite small and was obviously very busy.

The rep ushered me through the waiting masses to a small side table and then flagged down one of the SAPS people who check my serial numbers ect. I don't speak the local lingo but from the way he was waving the paperwork it was obvious he was stressing I already had my 520 complete.

As we pushed through other hunters outside the SAPS office, somebody recognised me from my flight and asked where I got my rifle case from...it seems that when their groups cases had been unloaded at Joburg, they had ended up in a couple of different places and one was still missing.

At the SAPS office door, a very pissed off looking American was being ushered out back into the masses to hand write his motivation letter and there were others arguing with the SAPS about PH numbers ect...

After leaving the SAPS office, the rep then took me through Customs (more waving of the 520 & no checks) and to the outside world...Total time including waiting for the baggage, was about 45minutes.

There did not seem to be much in the way of organisation at the SAPs office. As to what happens when you arrived there I guess depending on two things: 1) who your rep is and 2) who is on duty from the SAPS and what mood they are in.
From the smiles and banter between him and the SAPS officers, it was obvious my rep knew some of the people he was dealing with and that must help.

Regards,

Peter

Peter, My wife and I are planning on a side trip to Cape Town after our Zambian hunt and the visit to Vic Falls. We were going to go with our guns so we could make the return trip to Atlanta from Cape Town. We would be in the Cape Town area for 4-5 days. We won't have a PH or any hunting contacts contracted with. How do the SAP handle visitors with guns that won't be hunting in RSA?

Ib404, I am in a similar situation as I will be driving from Johannesburg to Kruger after a hunt in Namibia. I have not received a complete answer regarding traveling with firearms in RSA after a hunt some where else. My plan is to have them stored by Air 2000 but like you said there is no invitation letter or PH info from RSA. I plan on explaining why I have firearms in a detailed motivation letter. They will probably say I need to fly back to the US and drop my guns off then go to Kruger!

lb404

I've been keeping in touch with Air 2000 and Anne told me as Grafton suggested you can store your guns with them. Contact anne@air-2000.com She will advise you.

As for the long waits Garry Kelly still tells me that the clients are taking only a maximum of 50 minutes from jetway on arrival to sidewalk with their PH if they use Air 2000. My personal experience last year was an exact duplicate of Pete E's this year. No peoblem!

Regards,

Mark

Mark H. Young, So do they store then without going through SAP'S or do you have to go through all the crap with forms just to let them store the guns?

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Peter, My wife and I are planning on a side trip to Cape Town after our Zambian hunt and the visit to Vic Falls. We were going to go with our guns so we could make the return trip to Atlanta from Cape Town. We would be in the Cape Town area for 4-5 days. We won't have a PH or any hunting contacts contracted with. How do the SAP handle visitors with guns that won't be hunting in RSA?

To be brutally frank I DONT KNOW because it seems (clear to me at least) that @ times they the authorities themselves DONT even know, or more correctly they dpnt know how to act promptly reasonably and in the best intereasts of the hunters, this of cource can be due to many many factors, some which have been covered already.

There are MYRAID of problems just to name a few

Incorrect paper work provided by the hunter
No paper work provided by the hunter
Not enough staff @ the processing counter
Inefficient staff @ the processing counter

Then throw in the mix some hunters wanting to be totally know it all DIY XPERTS, some using private outfitters for meet and greet, and others using Air2000 and other professional meet and greet services etc

Then some flights might only have say 10 hunters some might have say 50+ hunters / that is not a difficult problem to resolve BUT they would not listen to my ideas as that would be tantamount to admitting they are piss poor in organisation

The end result is (no one in their right mind) can give a definitive answer to the overall problem BUT it does appear ( forget the reasons why) that if you use either a professional meet and greet service a professional hunting outfitter and/or your paper work has been processed in advance of your arrival, that it will HELP TO minimises the delays

Essentially, if you are in transit or whatever and you take your rifles outside the secure area and into (South African territory) you need a Permit, end of story.

In your particular case I would certainly use someone like Air2000 and then put your head on the pillow and sleep like a baby

PS: As a non related side issue // on our next two hunts July/August WE are LOANING our clients suitable rifles to hunt

Peter

Ib404, if Air 2000 is storing your guns, you will still need to obtain a temp. firearms permit. In fact they only offer storage for clients who use their services for obtaining permits. If these RSA permit issues get worse I believe a lot of trouble can be saved by using a PH's rifles when possible.

lb404 raises an interesting question, and one that I now have to advise one of my own clients about. Just like Peter, I'll be frank andd say that I don't actually know for sure. So I have to speculate a bit.

The SAPS will issue a client with a "Temporary Import Permit" for his firearm(s) to be USED for the hunting as described in the letter of invitation from the hunting outfitter. The client now actually has a "license" for that firearm while he is in South Africa. He has to take responsibility for the safe keeping and storage of the firearm for which "he" has a license. His Hunting Outfitter should provide him with the facilities to do this, but IMHO the "responsibility" for safe storage remains with the client as the holder of the (temporary) license. Now if the holder of such a temporary license has completed his hunt, and the Hunting Outfitter has dropped off the client at the place designated in the Remuneration Agreement, the client is then "on his own", with his firearm and his temporary valid license in his posession. This cannot be a problem at all, at least that is how I see it. My guess would be that he can perfectly legally take his firearm with him to Cape Town or wherever, but he remains responsible for the safe storage of the firearm while he goes wine tasting or swimming.

God forbid that the SAPS just start issuing temporary import permits valid for the period of hunting stated in the Hunting Outfitters' letter of invitation!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Verewaaier, in the situation you describe, the hunter would be obtaining his temporary permit before his hunt- for example the hunter is overnighting in Joberg and then traveling to hunt in another country and then returning to RSA to tour. It sounded to me like Ib404 would not be obtaining a permit from RSA until his hunt is over.

Grafton,

You are quite correct: I've not read lb404's first post properly: Too preoccupied with my own problems.

Still speculating: If a foreign visitor wants to be in SOuth Africa with a firearm, he needs a permit. Period. Then my first post applies. How he is going to motivate to SAPS that he does not intend "using" the firearm, but just wnats to drag it along on his wine tasting or swimming trip I don't know?

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

The real issue is this. The rules have changed since my last trip in 2003. If I travel through RSA and overnight in Joburg. prior to hunting in Zambia will the outfitter letter inviting me to hunt in Zambia suffice for obtaining the temporary import permit for RSA? If it will, then the temporary permit should include enough time to account for the return pase of the trip which might take me to Cape Town for touring. This is the way it worked in 2003 when we hunted in Namibia, Zimbabwe, and Tanzania. That made it worth the while to get the permit. There have to be persons with recent experience of going through RSA and overnighting prior to departing for another country to hunt. How did they handle things.

I think I've come up with a solution. Avoid RSA until they get their act together.

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
I think I've come up with a solution. Avoid RSA until they get their act together.

I think you could stop here:

"Avoid RSA."