On Saeed's Tanzania Expedition 2010, things got off to a seemingly great start with the first ever 500 Mbogo rifle for first blood on mbogo. Or did they?
One shot at 90 yards, one dead buffalo, and the insurance shot was paid.

Maybe I should have paid more attention to the story the recovered bullets told?

Maybe I should have paid more attention to the shooting sticks hung together by a frayed rubber thread?

Maybe I should not have taken the shot at that second buffalo at 151 yards, just an instant after he turned from broadside to frontal?

Maybe someone over-estimated my shooting ability, or "mis-under-estimated" the range?

Maybe GSC HV .510-caliber, 450-grain bullets, at 2654 fps MV expand in buffalo only half the time,
and bounce off half the time?
Sectional density insufficient to drive the expansion, or hole in the nose too small?
So much for that "non-conventional" bullet.

The Evidence:

First buffalo:







The entrance wound for the heart shot, left shoulder, quartering on. Bullet pierced humerus bone before tumbling through the heart, see recovered bullet below:


Shot to back at base of neck/between shoulders was insurance, see the bloodless spot of "after-death" entrance wound?


The entrance wound in the heart is the one on the left side of heart, exit on the right side of heart in the two photos below:



Cartridge used was 500 Mbogo:




GSC HV nose after magazine battering by recoil:



Bullets recovered from buffalo number one,
the first bullet, from 90 yards away, plugged with bone, bent, and was a spectacular "failure" but the buffalo died nearly instantly.
He bucked and lunged like a rodeo bull for about 25 yards before falling over.
The second bullet fired at about 10 yards as insurance expanded beautifully.
The first bullet was buried in the offside shoulder muscle.
The second bullet was lying loose in a chest full of blood, and simply fell out when the buffalo was "halved." The two bullets:






For comparison, unfired bullets and one that was found in a dirt berm at home:





Coming up, the search for the wounded buffalo, and the Crime Scene Investigation.

Buffalo number two was lost, so sorry.
Crime Scene:

Sir Paul, PH of the Realm, standing where the buffalo was wounded, looking toward truck at firing point:



Zoomed in from the other direction, the molested buffalo was standing in this clearing:



Zooming out from my firing position viewing the impact site:




Buffalo tracks on the hard earth, where the buffalo was standing facing me, 151 yards away:



And a gouge in the earth at 155 yards, 12 feet behind the buffalo, where the bullet ricocheted after wounding the buffalo:



A view from the side of the gouge in the dirt:



Both the buffalo tracks at 151 yards and the ricochet at 155 yards are visible in this shot:



The rickety shooting sticks at the firing line, on a slight slope of an old grown-over termite mound:



Looking downrange through the sticks:



Bwana Vee got it all on video, the wounding and the puff of dust ricochet to the left and behind the second buffalo.
I will add that clip whenever I am able.
Buffalo number one also was video recorded at impact and is interesting in comparison ...
Bwana Vee does good work, when he remembers to push that button on the camera.


The blood trail and more on shooting sticks next ...

Blood trail?
It was not much, just a few drops that stopped after a few hundred yards, and we searched for two days:











The rest of the "Vee Team" had to sit and wait 50 yards behind Sir Paul sometimes while he sneaked up on the dagga boys to look for a wound:





Notice above, the excellent 500 Nitro Express Heym double rifle propped on a pile of elephant dung, zoomed in below:



Also note that just before the above picture was snapped, Sir Paul had to repair the shooting sticks.
The third leg that had been hanging by a thread of rubber just fell off.
Sir Paul unwrapped some rubber and tied the broken ends together.
The shooting sticks in Maasailand used a heavy steel wire or bent-nail-like shaft or axle to join the tripod top.
Much sturdier.
I will get a picture of that whenever I get the rest of the pictures from The Expedition.











That bunch above vamoosed. More sneaking. Another dagga band:

Those sticks:

Third leg hanging by a wobbly rubber thread:



Inadvertently applying more pressure to the left side of the top will cause the right sided leg to kick out at the bottom,
especially if the right sided leg is on a down slope and the tip is resting on some loose dirt instead of dug in.
This can throw the shot off or cause the sticks to collapse completely,
believe it or not!!!













I do have a tendency to rest my hand in the Vee of the sticks and grasp the forend of the rifle firmly.
This may cause instability on a poor setup of the sticks:



This is the technique that a certain PH recommends, even with a double rifle, to prevent any tendency for the sticks to collapse:



I thought you are supposed to hang onto the barrels of a 500 Nitro Express double rifle with a firm grip of the offhand,
to get it to shoot to regulation???

Could a non-expanding spitzer deflect along the overlapping buffalo ribs and not enter the chest cavity?
Of course, especially if it arrived at an acute angle of incidence, not perpendicular, a near miss would turn into a spectacular flub ...

A wobble on the sticks ...

Shooting DG at 151 yards is not DG hunting, etc., etc. ...

The 500 Mbogo rifle, brass, and reloading dies are perfected. The rifle fed slickly and functioned perfectly,
possibly only my shooting may be to blame for the miss and nothing more.

The .395 Tatanka brass was on order for two years and arrived two weeks before departure.
There is some problem with my reloading dies for the .395 Tatanka.
The brass fit in chamber was tight on closing bolt, and hard to open the bolt after firing, though pressure was moderate.
So the .395 Tatanka was basically a single shot for plains game, on this trip.
I regret that I did not get to shoot a buffalo with the .395/310-grain S&H brass hollow points, nor the .395/330-grain brass FN solid.
Another screw-up on my part.
Oh well, someday I hope to forgive myself for blowing it.

RIP,

Indeed you have to blame yourself. I cannot comment on the bullet performance and there are some here more qualified who will.

You made the classic mistake of having the PH dictate your decisions and override your concerns. The PH is simply your guide and not a demi god as many would like to believe.

Considering the cover you had available there was no reason to take such a long shot and yes you are both to blame here. However you should have voiced your concerns regards both the distance of the shot and the state of the sticks. However in my opinion the sticks look fine and that excuse is lame. seemingly there was very little communication here?

Anyway in hunting you have to take the rough with the smooth mate. Your first Buff was a beauty and well done.

Anyone who says he hasn't screwed up in hunting is either a liar or has done very little of it.

My philosphy is to strive not to repeat mistakes, just make new ones!

I hate face-shots on buffalo. Having said that, I would guess that about 1/4 of the buffalo I've killed have been face-on (they've seen or heard something and are all looking in your direction).

Face-on shots are very unforgiving. If you shoot wide, then you only hit one lung, or worse---the bullet slides around the ribcage completely and goes between the ribs and shoulder. A high lung shot causes little bleeding. I think that a lot of buffalo "adventures" are the result of frontal shots gone bad.

I've taken long shots at buffalo but will not do so again (I have found that much of the fun for me is getting close. I'd rather shoot a 38" at 15 yards than a 45" at 150 yards.)

Another point is to never take a shot unless you are comfortable with it. It doesn't matter if the PH is comfortable with the shot---if you aren't, don't shoot.

I'm not sure that any writer has ever been able to describe the sick feeling (and stupid, worthless, embarrassed, etc..) that you have after wounding a dangerous game animal. I think CTB has come closest to describing the feeling. If this hasn't happened to you yet, it will. African hunting is full of emotional extremes---from fantastic highs to sickening lows.

Don't beat yourself over the head with this more than you have to. Make any changes necessary and move on.

One thing to notice is that Saeed does not use a howitzer. He uses a medium caliber gun that he's used for years. My first safari was about 20 years ago and I went armed to the teeth; 3 rifles, the largest being a 500 double. My next safari will be for buffalo only and I'll have just a single 375 Dakota. I have found that I not only shoot better with medium caliber guns than cannons, but as I get older they are a lot easier to carry!

JohnDL,

Excellent advice and you know your stuff.

Cheers

Andrew

quote:

Anyone who says he hasn't screwed up in hunting is either a liar or has done very little of it.

Precisely!

RIP

Very good to hear from you, I was just commenting yesterday wondering where you were? Welcome home, and quit beating yourself up, this happens, and those out there that say they never had it happen to them have not been to the field much, and or liars exactly as JohnDL says.

fairgame is spot on, much may very well be your fault for having the PH dictate--I swear I will try and be brief, but two stories about myself.

2002 Zimbabwe, Matetsi buffalo--lowly 45/70 guide gun at the time, taken not for buffalo but just a play gun-458 Lott in the truck. PH begs lets shoot the buffalo with the 45/70. OK, it will do, long as I have a good shot. Herd, 50-60 yds, bull lays down, facing at angle, PH above me by about a foot or so, me sitting 2 ft from him, little lower on the hill. Rifle in shooting sticks, I can see very well. PH says shoot just above the stick crossing the bulls shoulder. I say NO--not a good shot. PH points stick out, yes I see stick, he says "Trust Me" shoot just above the stick--NO-not a good shot! Looks at me--Trust Me, I see it in the Binos! OK, You the boss, you da man! I shoot, buffalo jumps up and runs away with the herd to the top of the hill--bad shot. Go up to where the buffalo was laying--there are TWO sticks, I could not see the bottom stick from my position at all--I showed him the stick I saw, it was higher, not a good shot! Now we had a wounded damn buffalo and I was stuck with a 45/70 and 420 gr Cast Performance at 1900 fps!!!! This was bad. To my PH credit, we did not rush things, the herd at the top of the hill milled around for about 30 minutes before decided to leave. My bull was at the back of the group, I was able to catch him dead broadside at about 80 yds and he piled up stone cold 30 yds later! Yep--exactly where I thought that first shot was, and it did exactly what I was afraid it might do, glance off the shoulder and not hit any vitals, going into the neck, not hitting the spine! This turned out ok, but it could have been ugly. Totally my fault for taking the shot, and I knew better!

Well, I am stupid, because I repeated this again in 2007! First real big outing for the 50 B&M, Again the Matetsi, had 4 cows on quota and one bull. Cow at only about 40-50 yds again, behind the only bush within a hundred yards, and angled slightly away from me--big herd, but this cow standing behind the bush, nothing around her. PH says shoot through the bush. I say no, just wait. He says no, shoot through the bush, your rifle will do it. NO--regardless of bore size, bullets can deflect! TRUST ME--SHoot through the bush! OK< You the boss, You da man! I shoot through the bush, cow runs off, in herd, can't shoot again, go to bush, bullet hits stick about an inch in diameter, later learning the bullet did in fact deflect, and hit a piece of 1 lung, way back, just nicked it a bit. Did not touch other lung. Looked all afternoon, no cow, dark now, sleepless night, kicking myself in the ass--I knew better, but did it anyway! My fault. Next morning cow had laid up, pretty sick, we came across her and she got up to charge, but could not handle 3 more 510 gr solids so that turned out ok too, but could have been ugly. All my fault for doing something I knew better than to do! So these things happen.

fairgame is right, under most conditions these guys are not demi gods and the fountain of knowledge concerning bullets, cartridges and such does not flow from them, in the circumstances of you and myself, we both know more than most of them will ever have the opportunity to know, when it comes to these sort of things.

Now I confess, that there are other times that I took the bad shot, and sometimes it worked, but sometimes it did not!!!! Sometimes completely on my own, without encouragement from the PH! Things happen in the field, if you are there enough, sometimes they will repeat too. And then you have me, seems I repeat stupid things, even when I know better! So what ya gonna do? JHC.

Just try next time to do better I figure!

Not sure I would classify that copper spitzer a true Non Con! I have come to think of those as near conventionals. The big wide cavity brass or shearing coppers, non cons. I can easy see where that particular bullet, with it's tiny opening, and in particular made of copper might plug, hit at an angle, not open up OR SHEAR and you know what a spitzer solid might do? No telling which side, end or top it might go to. Maybe a spitzer brass, that will shear. But even then I like the big cavity, shearing blades. Something to be discussed more extensively downstairs I think. No need to bother these folks with our analysis of this.

Good to have you back by the way, safe and sound, and don't beat yourself up, I know that is hard not to do, I have been there done that a few times myself! It happens, and if you are in the field long enough, it's going to happen again too!

Michael

Welcome back RIP.It was a big surprise to find out that you where the guest on Saeeds annual safari.It would've been something if you bagged a lion with that rifle of yours and those wildcat cartridges.I am sure you enjoyed your hunt and that is what is most important!

RIP

Anybody that says he has not missed or wounded and lost has not hunted much. Consider this a lesson and move on. No need to beat yourself up as it serves no purpose.

Mark

To all that replied:
All excellent advice, in good spirit,
well received, thank you.

Now that I have stepped on that gall bladder, I can wipe the bile off my leg and move on.

Hindsight is "twenty-ten." It all happened so fast, the buffalo were partly to blame for surprising us while we were skinning the warthog:



My warthog was down by 8 AM when a snorting of buffalo was heard in the bush fifty yards away, then the sound of hoofbeats as they eloped.
We startled them, and they surprised us, as they almost walked right into us. We were on their path to a waterhole.
We all ran after them and before 9 AM the wounding occurred.
It was a crime of passion, a startled, unthinking reflex shooting, as a startled, running buffalo paused for two seconds in a break in the bush willow 151 yards away.

Over the next two days of solid searching for the wounded buffalo, we saw hundreds more buffalo, and stalked many that could have easily been taken within 50 yards.
"Don't go ugly early," eh?

All else on the expedition was excellent.
I got seven trophies and got to tag along on Walter's seven too.
Yep, I was in on 14 kills.
PH Paul Olivier was a hunting machine, Bwana Vee was a heroic videographer,
and the Vee Team did very well, considering who the two hunters were:



I shall do a "Canuck Style" report on the rest of my hunting, when I get the rest of the pictures sorted out.
To repeat, now that I have stepped on my first "wounded and lost" gall bladder, I can wipe the bile off my leg and move on.

RIP, Well, if you screwed up the buffalo I can at least take pleasure that you shot my ex-wife.

JohnDL,
Your ex-wife looked like a warthog?
So you have suffered some tuff luv too, eh?
Learned your lesson too, eh? "Don't go ugly early."
Thanks again for your comments.

Letter Rip

I'm probably not the one to ask this, not having hunted there, but..do you guys who hunt Africa ever use other ways that might be more reliable than shooting from sticks? Such as kneeling or sitting? Or standing off hand but like in competitive shooting, standing sideways to the target, feet wide apart, sling let out enough to go twice tightly around your left arm, left elbow resting on left hip, and left arm almost straight up for holding the stock.

I was just curious about this, because sometimes those sticks look pretty flimsy and apparently there can be problems. Does the client-hunter get to choose?

Shack,
I prefer a tree rest to shooting sticks, with my hat between my hand and the tree.
I am better from a sitting position than from shooting sticks.
However, the sticks are more universally applicable to shooting situations.

I will take my own sticks with me from now on.
They may be of a sort I shall design myself and market as "Vee Sticks."

Bwana Vee might handle Southern African distribution, and Sir Paul might handle East Africa.

RIP, with all of the case volume of the 500 Mbogo. I would only use a Rx of 600gr "pills"

Keith

ps: love the buff you did get.

Hog Killer,
Yes, I experimented with possibly contributory bullet failure here.
Your recommendation is a good one.
Same recommendation came from PH: Use traditional-style 600 grainers at 2300 to 2400 fps MV,
or my old favorite 570-grainers at 2400 to 2500 fps MV.
Even 570-grainers at a sedate 2150 fps MV would equal the 500 Nitro Express, and allow use of Woodleighs and such.

The 450-grainers at 2654 fps: that was a reduced load using filler.

RIP welcome back. Congratulations on a safe and productive hunt with the seven trophies; was unfortunate about the 2nd buffalo but truly a valuable lesson learned. Congratulations to Saeed and Walter as well.

Welcome home, and sorry about the misfortune with the buff. Still had a great time tho, I bet.

Unfortunately, like your shot, I proved this same thing this weekend on a cow elk I lost. No matter how you slice it and look back, a bad shot with a 416 is still a bad shot!

Hello RIP

Great rapport and probably photos too. Problem is I can´t see them. Anybody know what’s wrong? Do you need Photo Bucket Pro?

I can't see them either.

quote:

If this hasn't happened to you yet, it will. African hunting is full of emotional extremes---from fantastic highs to sickening lows.

That's the god's honest truth.

Welcome back. Everybody takes one they regret later. I did on a wildebeest in RSA and was sick about it for months.

I'd like to see the pic's too............

Pics are back now hopefully.
Yes, exceeded the bandwidth on Photobucket and had to go "pro."
Thanks all for comisserating with me.

There may have been a limping buffalo in the Moyowosi for a while.
I nicknamed him "Chester" for the two days spent looking for him.
Expect he applied mud poultices to his wound like any good dagga boy, and is healed and haired over by now.
A toast to Chester:

Thanks for posting RIP. A learning experience for us all. Don't they say experience is a tough teacher because she gives the test first and teaches the lesson later?
Good hunting and look forward to your complete report.

I'm sorry that you lost this buffalo.

But at least one good thing should come of your hard lesson.

It should restrain you from offering any more "expert" advice to your betters regarding the use of shooting sticks.

I generally hate to say "I told you so." (But NOT in this particular case. )

If you had done as I told you to do, you'd have had a much better chance at putting this buffalo in the salt, and that's a fact.

'if you haven't wounded a buck, you never shot a buck...' said to me by a professional when I lost a gemsbok shot at 50 yards...Wisest words i've heard in a long while...

best wishes,

Finman

I'm actually surprised a wily old codger like you would even attempt to shoot a buff at that range. I thought you liked blood on your boots? I have to say that reminds me of my 150 yrd croc. In tanzania. A similar dose of bad judgement! great going on the first Buff!-Rob

MR,
I would never use your "cigarette-stick-hold" technique on the sticks. No sirree, not years ago, not now, and I would not recommend anyone use it for getting his big bore rifle to shoot to POA.
Bolt action or double, both need a firm grip on the forearm ... or just stick to 50 yards or less and it does not matter much, have at it offhand or with a cigarette-stick-hold!

Rob,
Thanks for going easy on me.
It all happened too fast, on the run.
PH said something like: "They will run through there, if one stops in that clearing..."
... and about then 5 buffalo went by, and the last one in the dagga bunch paused to look at us ... "Shoot him in the chest." ... he turned from broadside to facing directly toward us ... "Shoot him in the chest."
BOOM
It was just a few seconds.
I did not engage my brain at all.
I will not go ugly early, nor from afar, ever again.

Also, maybe I should stick to .375-caliber/300-grain bullets at 2750 fps and use a 2.5x-8X Leupold scope.

I've heard that setup has accounted for an awful lot of very dead buffalo,
Sorry for your misery RIP, but it happens to all of us if we are fortunate enough to get in the field very often.

RIP,

I too have had this happen. One of my good friends told me this. We all will get humbled some time. "Humility is the name of the game."

game

These are the comments from Ron regarding the bullet that "failed" on dead cape buffalo #1.

quote:

One shot at 90 yards, one dead buffalo, and the insurance shot was paid.

quote:

Maybe GSC HV .510-caliber, 450-grain bullets, at 2654 fps MV expand in buffalo only half the time,
and bounce off half the time?

quote:

Sectional density insufficient to drive the expansion, or hole in the nose too small?

quote:

The entrance wound for the heart shot, left shoulder, quartering on. Bullet pierced humerus bone before tumbling through the heart

quote:

The entrance wound in the heart is the one on the left side of heart, exit on the right side of heart in the two photos below:

quote:

The bullet was buried in the offside shoulder muscle.

Looking at this objectively, I see that the bullet penetrated on the point of the shoulder where it encountered the humerus after about 4cm of travel in tissue. At this point, the bullet had started expanding. The strong point of GSC HV bullets is that they do not expand on impact. Expansion is a time over distance event, contrary to what some armchair warriors out there think. Having encountered the bone at an extreme angle, as seen from the illustration, there are three ways things could have gone.



1. The bullet could have shattered on the bone, probably breaking the bone in the process, deflecting the fragments along the rib cage and failing to penetrate into the chest cavity. Result: A more than molested cape buff.
2. The bullet could have expanded well, losing some weight in the process, compromising the momentum cross sectional area that gives deep penetration and thereby compromising the result. It may or may not break the bone and it may or it may not finish what the hunter started, because deflection off the bone is a very real possibility.
3. The bullet could have retained all of its weight and punched through the humerus bone, giving the best chance of retaining momentum and deep penetration. This returns the best chance of finishing what the hunter started.

Of course one is free to pick any outcome above, depending on one's propensity for excitement. The GSC HV under discussion here behaved as in the third scenario. We have taken much trouble to design for this outcome. Less excitement but much more reliability.

Had the bullet not encountered heavy bone, it would have continued the expansion process. If the velocity is high enough and the time spent driving forwards and expanding exceeds certain parameters, the petals will tear off. They will wind up more or less at the same depth as the remaining shaft. This "lose the petals" threshold is around 2600fps, give or take a 100fps or so and depending on caliber. For those who are wondering, that is why there is the apparent discrepancy between the two bullets above.

The objective report reads:
One shot at 90 yards, one dead buffalo, and the insurance shot was paid.
The entrance wound for the heart shot, left shoulder, quartering on. Bullet pierced humerus bone before tumbling through the heart.
The entrance wound in the heart is the one on the left side of heart, exit on the right side of heart in the two photos below:
The bullet was buried in the offside shoulder muscle.

Subjectively, tempered by the experience of wounding Chester, there is:
Maybe GSC HV .510-caliber, 450-grain bullets, at 2654 fps MV expand in buffalo only half the time,
and bounce off half the time? Sectional density insufficient to drive the expansion, or hole in the nose too small?

GSC makes a wide range of bullets for use on many types of game and a wide variety of conditions. For use on Dangerous Game, the FN range is always the first choice. Where an HV bullet is chosen, it must be selected appropriate to the task. Examples of HV bullets we would select for dangerous game are (first three numbers are the caliber and the next three are the weight):

366230HV = 3.80 cal length
375265HV = 3.90 cal length
416330HV = 3.65 cal length
458450HV = 3.40 cal length
470500HV = 3.54 cal length

Bullets that should preferably be restricted to use on plains game:

375200HV = 3.08 cal length
416245HV = 2.99 cal length
458270HV = 2.51 cal length
470380HV = 2.83 cal length
510450HV = 2.72 cal length

Looking at molested and escaped buffalo #2 (Chester), I see this:

Buffalo #1 proved that the penetration capability of the 510450HV is less than the width of a cape buffalo. Therefore, for the 510450HV to have enough steam to put the illustrated gouge in the earth, after hitting cape buffalo #2, it must have traversed far less of the animal than either of the two used on #1.

Here is the account of the shot:

quote:

the last one in the dagga bunch paused to look at us ... "Shoot him in the chest." ... he turned from broadside to facing directly toward us ... "Shoot him in the chest." BOOM

quote:

Both the buffalo tracks at 151 yards and the ricochet at 155 yards are visible in this shot:

The question now arises: How do you shoot a facing buffalo in the chest, traverse much less buffalo than the first two shots and have the bullet ricochet off the earth 4/5 yards further?

Easy. Shoot it inside the red line.



Should we be blaming the bullet and calling it a bullet failure? Hunting brings hard lessons, providing we learn from them.

RIP,

Just back from an icy mule deer hunt...sorry to jump in so late.

Although I am sorry for your W/L, I did enjoy the heck out of your detailed observations and photographs. You always manage to satisfy my need to know the "small stuff".

I know the feeling of getting caught up in the moment, and squeezing the trigger when everything doesn't feel just right. Don't beat yourself though...wipe the bile off and move on.

If I were a betting man, based on the evidence I'd put a paycheck on it being a superficial wound to the "sternum area", and that Chester will live on to be lion food some day.

edit: just read Gerard's post and agree with likely POI, and his rationale.

Cheers my friend,
Chris

Yo RIPster,

I lost one wounded in Tanzania in 2002. It sucks, kind of like getting gut punched. But we've all done it at one time or a another. Chin up old man. Next time, always next time.

Rip,

The figure work presented here is rather intriguing and seems to break new ground.
I am writing this to you and not to Gerard, I am not interested in any discourse with him.
The website says ... NEW RULES ... and we have them indeed.

As has been mentioned by another AR member, no stern warning was given by GSC that the 450 gr HV is not intended for use on DG, such as buffalo. And we take it that Gerard knew this all along (all knowing), as he harped back whilst almost pulling all his hair out and shaking his head in disbelieve that you could have been so stupid to have used the HV and not the FN .... he put is like this ... "It beats me why a plains game bullet is used on DG when the right tools are at hand." and referenced it with examples where FN's were used and not HV's. It beats him because we are all morons. (Shocker No.1)

Then Gerard comes back with a new revelation where he now published (belatedly that is) a list of HV bullets that are not to be used (not fit for), and for ease of reference I will state them underneath. His assessment is based on bullet length, but more precisely bullet length in relation to diameter. The cut-off multiple of caliber length sited by him here is 3.08 times (I can only guess it was determined experimantally on buffalo by himself) , and so the 450 gr HV bullet misses the qualification of use on DG. Take note, Gerard does not base his view on SD, as sectional density is just a "practical joke" to him; he much rather prefer to replace weight with diameter, and come up with a better or more appropriate ratio. And it is supposedly because caliber length works better than the old SD formula. Let me site one example:

We should not use the .510 bullet weighing 450 grains, but
we can safely use the .366 bullet weighing 230 grains - near enough half the weight and momentum.
Let us look at he SD's of these 2 bullets:

.510/450 gr ....... SD = .247 (this one is no good for buffalo)
.366/230 gr ....... SD = .245 (this one is good for buffalo)

This is the way it is RIP. (Shocker No. 2)

Let me site one more example, bearing in mind the cut-off is 3.08 caliber lengths:

The .458/450 grains can be used on buffalo ........ .458" x 3.40 cal lengths = 1.557" of 39.5 mm
The .510/450 grains cannot be used on buffalo ..... .510" x 2.72 cal lengths = 1.387" of 35.2 mm

Put these two bullets on your desk if you will, and observe the difference in length of 4.3 mm.
This difference is critical, according to the new assertion, and the one bullet should be rejected.
Don't let the weight of the bullet fool you, focus on caliber length.
Well, this is as eloquent as it gets.
I am going to make me a cup of Milo now, and start my day.

Regards
Warrior

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The GS Custom table to distinguish betweeen the use on plains game and DG.[/B

[B]Examples of HV bullets we would select for dangerous game are (first three numbers are the caliber and the next three are the weight):

366230HV = 3.80 cal length ----->
375265HV = 3.90 cal length
416330HV = 3.65 cal length
458450HV = 3.40 cal length ----->
470500HV = 3.54 cal length

Bullets that should preferably be restricted to use on plains game:Bullets that should preferably be restricted to use on plains game:

375200HV = 3.08 cal length
416245HV = 2.99 cal length
458270HV = 2.51 cal length
470380HV = 2.83 cal length
510450HV = 2.72 cal length ----->

I am repeating Ignoranus's post as is because he will probably change it when he realises the mistakes he made. He is an accountant - he works with numbers.

quote:

The figure work presented here is rather intriguing and seems to break new ground.
I am writing this to you and not to Gerard, I am not interested in any discourse with him.
The website says ... NEW RULES ... and we have them indeed.

As has been mentioned by another AR member, no stern warning was given by GSC that the 450 gr HV is not intended for use on DG, such as buffalo. And we take it that Gerard knew this all along (all knowing), as he harped back whilst almost pulling all his hair out and shaking his head in disbelieve that you could have been so stupid to have used the HV and not the FN .... he put is like this ... "It beats me why a plains game bullet is used on DG when the right tools are at hand." and referenced it with examples where FN's were used and not HV's. It beats him because we are all morons. (Shocker No.1)

Then Gerard comes back with a new revelation where he now published (belatedly that is) a list of HV bullets that are not to be used (not fit for), and for ease of reference I will state them underneath. His assessment is based on bullet length, but more precisely bullet length in relation to diameter. The cut-off multiple of caliber length sited by him here is 3.08 times (I can only guess it was determined experimantally on buffalo by himself) , and so the 450 gr HV bullet misses the qualification of use on DG. Take note, Gerard does not base his view on SD, as sectional density is just a "practical joke" to him; he much rather prefer to replace weight with diameter, and come up with a better or more appropriate ratio. And it is supposedly because caliber length works better than the old SD formula. Let me site one example:

We should not use the .510 bullet weighing 450 grains, but
we can safely use the .366 bullet weighing 230 grains - near enough half the weight and momentum.
Let us look at he SD's of these 2 bullets:

.510/450 gr ....... SD = .247 (this one is no good for buffalo)
.366/230 gr ....... SD = .245 (this one is good for buffalo)

This is the way it is RIP. (Shocker No. 2)

Let me site one more example, bearing in mind the cut-off is 3.08 caliber lengths:

The .458/450 grains can be used on buffalo ........ .458" x 3.40 cal lengths = 1.557" of 39.5 mm
The .510/450 grains cannot be used on buffalo ..... .458" x 3.40 cal lengths = 1.387" of 35.2 mm

Put these two bullets on your desk if you will, and observe the difference in length of 4.3 mm.
This difference is critical, according to the new assertion, and the one bullet should be rejected.
Don't let the weight of the bullet fool you, focus on caliber length.
Well, this is as eloquent as it gets.
I am going to make me a cup of Milo now, and start my day.

Regards
Warrior

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The GS Custom table to distinguish betweeen the use on plains game and DG.[/B

[B]Examples of HV bullets we would select for dangerous game are (first three numbers are the caliber and the next three are the weight):

366230HV = 3.80 cal length ----->
375265HV = 3.90 cal length
416330HV = 3.65 cal length
458450HV = 3.40 cal length ----->
470500HV = 3.54 cal length

Bullets that should preferably be restricted to use on plains game:Bullets that should preferably be restricted to use on plains game:

375200HV = 3.08 cal length
416245HV = 2.99 cal length
458270HV = 2.51 cal length
470380HV = 2.83 cal length
510450HV = 2.72 cal length ----->

RIP,

Typos corrected, was in a hurry ... inadvertent ... yes/no?

Just a last thought ... Since these caliber length statistics are not available on the website of GSC, nor on the box, nor a guiding comment as to the sensitivities of caliber length of various HV bullets, you are required to do the calculations yourself. That is also based on the premise that you should have known that, or anybody else for that matter. No longer will bullet weight alone suffice any more, you need to know the caliber length of the bullet.

Who knows, this statistic may just feature on the boxes in future - so there is hope for us poor mortals to use the right tools in future.

.510/450 gr ... SD = .247 (this one is no good for buffalo)... bullet = 2.72 cal. long
.366/230 gr ... SD = .245 (this one is good for buffalo)........ bullet = 3.80 cal. long

In this scenario where bullet weight does not count anymore, Gerard kicks Momentum out the door despite him advocating the importance of momentum on his website. Since bullet weight is no longer a base unit, why bother to multiply it out with velocity to get momentum. Just go for bullet length of X-calibers long - a new entity!!!

Double talk? No, not at all.

Warrior.

Pontificus Ignoranus,
Here you go.

And here.