I'm trying to fill out paperwork as per Air 2000s instructions, and they state that "The frame, barrel and action must be marked with the same serial number."

The barrel of my rifle does not carry a serial number, and I'm sure as heck not going to crudely engrave the serial number on it, so what do I do? Is just the serial number that's on the receiver good enough for all parties concerned?

AD

Allen:
How about more info on Air 2000. Web page, phone ,e-mail address, etc.
Thanks
Paul K

allen,

I left JIA/RSA on 7/1 and that was the rumor we heard from Anne @ Air 2000, face to face, as we were getting off our charter flight at their terminal in Lanseria, RSA. The serial number thing for barrel & action was a main topic of conversation and jest among the 7 hunters in our party. But, from all indications, it is a legitimate requiremnet now under the new "regs" effective 7/1/04. It's up to you to blow it off or not, but the climate at JIA was quite convincing as we made our way out of RSA...just my opinion.

Allen,

"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

The original official language in the new RSA firearms statute said "frame, barrel or action" must be marked;however, that has morphed from some sources to "frame, barrel and action". I believe the former to be correct.

After all no manufacturer today marks all three with the serial.

Since it is Africa there will be all manner of rumor about this, and rumor can trump fact with enough repetition.

jim

Allen,



When I went last month the serial number requirement was not enforce. So I can't answer your question.



I'd just drop Anne (air2000@REMOVETHISglobal.co.za) an e-mail and ask her directly. I had a couple of questions and Anne answered them within twelve hours.



(Remove the upper case "REMOVETHIS" from Annes' e-mail address. I thought I should add it to slow down the address gleaning spam bots)



-Steve

If it was Frame, Barrel, and Action, pray tell me what is the frame? I've been gunsmithing a long time, and other than on pistols, I can't figure out where I have more than a barrel and an action on a rifle. Lest they mean the bolt is the action, and what we normally call the action is the frame?

It appears that part of the problem lies in the fact that the English version of the act seems to say receiver, or barrel or bolt and the Afrikaans version states receiver and barrel and bolt. As most of the SAPS have Afrikaans as their 1st language, they want to apply that version.



However the good news is that after the failed High Court action by PHASA, SAGA etc the SAPS agreed to hold this requirement in abeyance for a short period. Current requirement is for the serial number to be on any one part of the firearm only. How long this will continue has not been announced. I'll correct myself here by using the edit button. Apparently it's until Jan 1st 05).



Current waiting times at the SAPS office at the moment for hunters who just pitch up without any pre-prepared paperwork is 6+ hours to get the temporary licence issued.



We use Air 2000 for all of our clients as we regard this situation as wholly unreasonable, and using their services our clients are getting from aircraft to outside the terminal in less than an hour.



I spoke to Air 2000 today and was told that if you use their services you now need to ensure the copies of your passport and 4457 etc are certified copies rather than simple photocopies. If they're not certified, then you will have to wait in line until the cops can make their own copies.



Yet another example of how stuffed up this entire system is that the SAPS programme which is used to issue the licences doesn't have any of the Botswana border crossings on it at all, so anyone flying into RSA to cross into Botswana to hunt the Tuli Block and surrounding areas also has even more of a problem.

What is a "certified copy"? Certified by who? A notary public? The notary certainly doesn't know if the document is authentic, but I guess the embossed stamp looks pretty official.

I just spoke about this pickle with my booking agent, Don Crane of Safari Outfitters, Cody, WY.

The Air 2000 folks informed him that the serial-number-on-the-barrel clause pertains to guns with interchangable or removeable barrels, such as Contenders, Blazers, etc. It seems as though fixed-barrel single-shots and bolt-guns are sufficiently covered by the serial number on the receiver only. That's the current word, anyway.

But now, I'm told, I must make photocopies (as in two each) of my passport and U.S. Customs Form 4457, take these copies plus the originals to the local sheriff's office (not the local police) and have the sheriff himself (not a deputy) certify and sign the copies, stating that they are indeed copies of the original documents.

I thought that RSA had a copious number of criminals alread, especially in Jo-berg. Shouldn't the RSA law enforcemnt people be going after them instead of hassling us????????


AD

You take your passport (or whatever) to a lawyer or whoever is authorised to certify copies in your country, he makes a copy of it puts his stamp & signature on it to prove it's not been altered and charges you an arm and a leg for the privilege.

It's a total load of old bo***cks isn't it?

Here is the URL for Air 2000 for those who are interested. I used them in May and their service was very good. I can recommend them with no reservations.

Air 2000 - aka Hunters Support

Alan

"have the sheriff himself (not a deputy) certify and sign the copies" Now how in the hell is some airport "RSA law enforcement" officer going to know who my local sheriff is? Little alone what his signature looks like On top of that, even if I did take the photocopies to him, just how is he going to "certify" them? We need to hear from someone who has been to RSA in the last few weeks and who has been through this crap.



All this bullshit and plus the SAA changes is why this may well be my last trip to Africa Theres just too much to hunt in the good ol USA without dealing with all this crap.

Also, here is the URL for Afton House. If you need a good place to stay, they offer firearms services to their clients for an small additional fee. I used them in May on the way out to Zim, and can recommend them with no reservations as well.

Afton Guest House

Although it has been a short term problem for many hunters, I think that a flood of complaints and drop off in revenue will make this nonsense go away. It is a lot of pressure on all of us as hunters, but it's got to be rough on them as well.

It's good to vent on these hunting forums, but if you really want to effect some change, e-mail your comments directly to SAPS, the SA Embassy, etc. They will soon cave when their in-boxes are flooded with folks raising hell.

Alan

I've just found out the the serial number has to be on just one part of the rifle until January 1st 2005 and after that it has to be on all 3 places......I'm told there will be no exceptions, but I've been told that before.

This act has been a stuff up from beginning to end and I'm sure it will impact the South African hunting and travel industries dramatically. To expect people to wait in line for 6 hours after any flight, let alone such long flights is ridiculous. Add on the price rises that will happen due to the strengthening Rand and suddenly I can sell a 7 day Selous Buffalo hunt for almost the same price as a 10 day plains game hunt in RSA. Then the hunter will choose to transit through Europe or UK instead of with SAA through Jo'burg.

I guess people will vote with their feet and avoid RSA like the plague......and I don't blame em'

OK, Shakari, as of 1 January '05, I have the serial # on the action, I can easily put it on the barrel, but where in hell am I to get this frame to put it on?

The Canadian Government can solve all problems in regard to said multiple serial numbers. All guns need to be registered in Canada, nothing new here. However to register a firearm a serial number is required to identify the arm. Some weapons don't come SN equipped so the government, in its usual brilliance, sends, free of charge, a sticker. Yes that is correct, a sticker displaying a number to be stuck to the rifle, shotgun, squirtgun........ Voila, instant serial number.



So get on the computer open up your preferred label maker and print up some serial numbers. Make sure the number matches the one on the reciever to avoid haveing "big brother" think that you are transporting multiple arms in disguise as a single rifle. Make 10 labels if you like. Make the print big or small, pink or green. No?



Chuck

Nothing personal, but every time you post something it is a different story!

Nothing personal, but any time anyone makes a post on the new laws it is a different story!

Arts,



It will need to be on the action, the barrel and the bolt.



Will & Mark,



don't know if you meant me or not? But if so, the reason is that the requirements keep changing. All I've been doing is to report the current situation at that particular time, in the hope it will help forum members who are due for immiment arrival into RSA. I'm not putting my own interpretation on it at all as I'm not a lawyer, or a cop and I don't speak legalese...... but I do speak to PHASA and SAPS and Air 2000 on a very regular basis and then report their comments (on the current situation) to me........ I've also passed through JIA arrivals with firearms twice since the new act came into power.



The reason things change with every post is that they keep moving the bloody goalposts.

OK, thanks Shakari, but now what if I have a lever action (which I won't, but someone else likely will)? Or how about a single shot, i.e. Ruger No. 1, which I might? Inccidently, I appreciate your info, understanding why it changes regularly.

RSA can bugger off as far as I'm concerned. Next year I fly to Namibia via Frankfurt and bypass the whole fiasco.

Yep:
Eric is correct, RSA with their gun laws and SAA with their ridiculous over weight charges for local travel done it for me. I will use another Airline and go to another Country. They have the right to set their laws and I have the right to not spend my money in their country. I guess they don't need my money. I'm happy to spend it somewhere else.

Here we go again.

Guys, I speak Afrikaans fluently. If someone will direct me to the "Afrikaans Version" of the act, and preferably to the paragraph about serial numbers, I will straighten this out.

I have seen the English version, and I believe English is the primary legal and business language now in RSA. (Afrikaans is the language of the former "oppressor"). The English version clearly distinguishes between firearms temporarily imported, and those permanently imported. The former are required to have ONE unique serial number somewhere on the firearm, and if it does not, the SAP will affix a TAG to the gun which you cannot tamper with until you depart. The latter are required to have the SAME serial number on action/frame, barrel, and bolt if a bolt action.

I also fail to understand why people go to the trouble of having some third party fill out the new SAPS 520 form for them. You have to fill out a form with all the info the third party needs to fill out the SAPS 520 for you. You may as well just fill out SAPS 520 yourself and take it with you. If it's filled out, you go pass go and collect $200. You can download the form from our website, just follow the links "SAFARIS", "TIPS AND TRAVEL ADVICE", then "SOUTH AFRICA". There is NO charge, not a cent. Really.

I have said it before and I say it again: all these plugs for Air2000 sound like "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" to me.

I suppose if any references for you pop up we should be skeptical of them???? Heaven forbid Air2000 provides a good service and people recommend it. It sounds more like you have personal vendeta against them, by your number of Anti Air 2000 posts.

Well, nothing against Air2000, but I also have my doubts about need. On my recent trip, my schedule was to Cape Town, so I arranged with Air2000 to have my permit there. 30 minutes before landing in Joburg, which was supposed to be a no-deplane stop and continue on to Cape Town, they announced that those going on to Cape Town would be taking a different flight and that we had to claim our bags and go through customs, etc., which meant I had to get my permit there in Joburg, not Cape Town. Of course I had nothing lined up in Joburg with Air2000 or anyone. At any rate, as soon as I saw my rifle case, I grabbed it and went to the door for getting the permit. It took me all of 15 minutes, no hassle or problem. I moved quickly so that I didn't end up in a long line. Hence, at least based on my experience, I wonder about the actual need for them. When I got to Cape Town, sure enough, they were waiting with a permit in hand, but I had no use for it by then (no fault of theirs). Talk about wasted money!

'Air 2000' charges $70.00, American, for their service. Big friggin' deal! I see the risk of employing them as minimal, especially in view of the fact that guys who are not utilizing that service are spending some frustrating, long hours in line going thru all the paperwork hyjinks, much of which they are ill-prepared to deal with.

And the requirements seem to be changing on a daily basis. Yesterday, I had the local sheriff's department sign off on my passport copy and form 4457 copy. This morning, Don Crane calls and informs me that now RSA officials want that same copy notorized.

Yeah, you can save seventy bucks, exercise your knowlege of Afrikans for the sheer joy of it, and fight through the paperwork process all on your lonesome if you want to, but wherein lies the real gain by following this course?

Talk about stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime!

AD

Russ,



Every time this subject comes up you make snide suggestions that I somehow have an axe to gring in my praise for Air 2K......and I actually find your attitude offensive. As I've said in many other posts, I don't make a cent from them whatsoever, I just find their service extremely good and worth every cent. If you stopped to think about it for a moment, any commission they did pay would not be worth having......their entire service only costs &70. If you don't believe me, then I can only suggest you contact them yourself and ask if they'll give you any commission......I'd bet they would say no.



Nice to see your comment about how you will sort the problem out if someone will direct you to the Afrikaans version of tha act.......I'll let PHASA, SAGA, SCI and all the other parties who have been working so hard for so long to sort this ridiculous act out know about your kind offer and I'm sure they'll be very grateful. You'll have achieved more on your own than they have working as a combined force.



I don't speak Afrikaans well enough to read that version of the act, and am only reporting what I've been told...... but I would suggest that most of the (white) SAPS officers have Afrikaans as their mother language and would probably use that version of the act. PHASA tell me that the serial number on all 3 parts of the rifle will be required after Jan 1st 05...... but IMO nothing about this act should be considered concrete until it happens.



Art,



You don't say when you came through RSA. Was it before or after the new act came into effect? I've been through twice since 1 July, and both times there were guys who had been waiting for around 4 hours.........I've had other reports of 6 hour waits, but don't know how accurate that is.



Allen,



I agree with your comments completely, hell I'd pay $70 to avoid the queue at passport control alone!



On the subject of the other companies offering a similar service, there seems to be a few, and I'm sure that many are equally as good as the company I use, but there are also one or two who are completely useless. I called one this morning and had to speak to 3 members of staff before I found one that could answer my questions and then he couldn't tell me about the cost or whether they met the client at aircraft side or in the baggage hall etc..... he promised to let me know by e-mail asap and that was almost 12 hours ago.......I'm still waiting. So would I consider using their services?........would I hell!

Shakari, I must admit that it was the end of June, just before the so called "change". One thing that I noticed, and eluded to above, but maybe not aggresively enough, was that I grabbed my gun case about the second it came out and got things moving. There were several others there, and by several I mean maybe 25 or 30+. Nobody else seemed to be in a hurry or paying much attention. I then looked over and saw the sign that said Police/Firearms (or something to that effect) and hustled right over there, in essence being first in line. There were a few, 5 or 6, in line when I came out and obviously many yet to pick up there guns and get in line, so perhaps some of those folks ended up waiting quite a while, I don't know. And I recognize that I may very well have just been lucky. I know that being quick paid dividends. Again, I'm not opposed to or against Air2000, just pointing out one guys experience whithout them.

Another pointer: When you pay Air2000, at least in my case, I was given a $US figure ($70 as someone pointed out above) and a Rand figure. If you can arrange to already have the Rand available to pay with, it is actually a lot less than $70.

Frankly, I was the person who first identified that the English Act differentiated between temporary imports and permanent imports, and in the case of temporary imports the "or" condition contrasted with the "and" condition for the permanent.

SAGA is primarily concerned with permanent imports, since they represent local gun owners.

PHASA and SCI have been involved, but I am not sure what aspects of the Act they are fighting. I have an idea it's broader than just the serial no. thing, for example the tighter restrictions on handguns. The only thing to come out of PHASA was a limp letter saying "Things are changing, but we don't know how or when". Since a lot of PHASA members are primarily Afrikaans speaking, I find it odd they can't read an official Govt Act, published in black and white in the government Gazette No. 26374, in their own mother tongue.

The fingerprint fiasco was another chicken little thing. I was the guy that published the SAP520 on this forum via my website, and lo and behold, when one studied that form, it became clear to all but the illiterate that fingerprints were only required from those who could not write.

My conclusion is that most of what is flying around is hearsay, and will become clear when someone actually reads the documentation. Since the current "theory" is that the Afrikaans version is the problem, well let's test that "theory". Here is the Afrikaans version, section regarding identification markings.

Uitkenningstekens op vuurwapens
(1) Geen vuurwapenlisensie mag uitgereik word nie tensy die vuurwapen die reeksnommer van die vervaardiger of enige ander teken waardeur die vuurwapen uitgeken kan word, dra.
Outeursregvergunning Juta & Kie Beperk
(2) Die uitkenningsnommer moet gestempel wees en die teken moet aangeheg word op die voorgeskrewe wyse op die loop, raam of romp van die vuurwapen.< !--color-->
(3) Ondanks subartikels (1) en (2) kan die Registrateur, by die aanvoer van gegronde redes deur die aansoeker en behoudens die voorwaardes wat die Registrateur opl�, 'n lisensie uitreik ten opsigte van 'n vuurwapen wat nie aan die bepalings van daardie subartikels voldoen nie.
(4) Die Registrateur kan gelas dat enige vuurwapen ten opsigte waarvan 'n aansoek om 'n lisensie gedoen is, gemerk word met die bykomstige identifikasieteken wat hy of sy bepaal.
(5) Geen persoon mag die vervaardiger se reeksnommer of enige ander uitkenningsteken op 'n vuurwapen uitwis, verander of op enige ander wyse daarmee peuter met die opset om die identiteit van die vuurwapen te verander nie.
(6) 'n Persoon in besit van 'n vuurwapen waarvan die vervaardiger se reeksnommer of ander uitkenningsteken uitgewis, verander of andersins mee gepeuter is of onleesbaar geword het, moet die Registrateur onverwyld van sodanige feit in kennis stel.
(7) Die Registrateur kan skriftelik gelas dat sodanige vuurwapen gemerk moet word met die uitkenningsteken wat hy of sy

The key portion is highlighted in red. The words "op die loop, raam OF romp" mean "on the barrel, frame OR action. Anyone with any knowlege of the Germanic languages will tell you that OF means OR and EN means AND.

There is also a paragraph that says that the Registrar can issue a licence at his discretion even if the firearm does NOT meet the reqts of para 2.

So I rest my case. PHASA, SAGA, SCI, SHAKARI, Air2000, and the rest of the "Experts" who can't or won't read, eat my shorts.

And regarding the $70, I agree that's the fee to have Air2000 fill out the form for you and meet you in the baggage claim area. It's a matter of personal choice. I just don't like the insinuations that your guns are going to be confiscated and/or you will wait in line for 6 hours unless you pay the money. That's BS and it's putting a lot of people off going to RSA to hunt. That's a shame.

Listen up hunters. Here's what's going on. Certain PH's and outfitters hate waiting in the arrivals hall for their clients. That's why they advise the use of Air2000. Their theory is that you are less likely to screw up/be held up if you pay. Maybe. I say they are waiting on your clock anyway.

If you agree that it's worth paying the money, be aware that there are other options that have been discussed on this board, and they cost half the money. Paying the man $20, if it comes down to that, is one of them. Now you know, go ahead and make your decisions.

Caveat emptor, as they say.

I used Air 2000 in June at the almost insistance of our outfitter. For the savey world traveler who wants to prove he can do it, by all means have at it. BUT for us pluggers who only get to play every several years let me say this.

Wife,daughter and myself were off the plane and sitting in Wimpys in the domestic departures terminal so quickly I do not even really remember which way we went. Our assistant would NOT take the tip I offered. I would never consider not using this type of service. $70.00= a bargain.

Dulcinea

Yeah, you can save the $70 and slug it out yourself, but the price of saving that money is about 6 hours in line. Everything (even saving money) comes at a price. I surely do hope the savings are worth it!

You can also go cheaper (CHEAP seems to be the watchword here!) and spend $20 on some other outfit, but the outfitters seem to be highly recommending the services of Air 2000.

AD

Listen guys, I just got off the phone with Debbie at Gracy Travel in order to book next June's hunt. All I can tell you is that my head is ready to explode. Between the piece of shit FRENCH AIRBUS that needs extra fuel stops, thus dicking up connections, the uncertainty of "in transit" permits and general well, let's just call it the "african business ethic," if it wasn't for the fact that I already plunked down a lot of money, I'd call the whole thing off. It seems to me that IF the gun permit issue becomes a problem, the services proferred by Air 2000 is CHEAP at twice the price in order to avoid all that BS! I sure hope taht by next June all this crap's been sorted out! jorge