The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting When DG Hunting How Much Trust Do You Have In Your PH's Backup ShootingGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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No-one is infallable, not even the best PH. They may be having a bad day. Your PH usually wants to know how well you shoot. Have you ever asked your PH how good he is? In the below video, there are three shooters including the PH that almost get the client killed. It appears to be the client that the lion wants to get even with!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...oKFc&feature=related Bob Nisbet DRSS & 348 Lever Winchester Lover Temporarily Displaced Texan If there's no food on your plate when dinner is done, you didn't get enough to eat. | ||
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Well, for starters, I would not call this a lion hunt by any stretch of the imagination. That was some's pet you see being killed. If you look carefully you can see the fence in the video. Back to your qustion. The PHs I have hunted I do trust completely. However, in the bush one should also have some reliance on his own ability to stay out of trouble. | |||
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And I would not call any of the actors in this movie a PH by any stretch of the imagination..... | |||
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video not withstanding... I'd walk into hell armed with a butterknife with Zim PH Jim Mackie backing me up..... troy Birmingham, Al | |||
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I have seen the Ph I hunt with (Nigel Theisen) shoot. Not by request...but...I have seen him shoot. He CAN SHOOT and I trust him with my life. He has had a PH license since 1985 and he has all of his parts and they are still working fine so that is probably a bigger testimony. All that said...I make D@^^^^ sure I am well oiled myself. When in the bush...one should always be confident in one's own ability to sort out his own business. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I trust both PH's that have guided me on DG hunts implicitly. Never-the-less, I I feel that I am responsible for putting a bullit in the right place so that he doesn't have to demonstrate his expertise. | |||
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I've seen this video passed around for months....its a canned hunt allright. And ranch lions have NO FEAR of humans... unprovoked charges are more common than thought. But to the question....one better have more confidence in your PH than in yourself. Bob DRSS DSC SCI NRA & ISRA | |||
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I trust my PHs but I also recognize the fallibility of humans and therefore do everything in my own power to be prepared for the very worst scenario. Anyone who relies totally and soley on their PH in a dangerous game situation is foolish, at best.  Just my own opinion.  | |||
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I look at the PH as only a back up. I assume he will miss and that I better be prepared to handle the situation if he does miss. The only way to survive. 465H&H | |||
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Gents - the truth be known - thats why us PH's try to get our clients in as close as possible when hunting dangerous game - not to be macho, or act bravado in front of our clients - but merely to give YOU the oppurtunity to get the shot placement RIGHT the first time ! We dont like getting gored, bitten, scratched, tusked, tossed or spat out any more than you do ! The majority of PH's do have the ability and experience to shoot in tight situations when called upon - however we do rely on the client making the critical first shot count - before we have to go in and sort out the mess ! Remember, you are the one paying to hunt - thats what you come on safari for - most PH's will give the client more than one oppurtunity to finish off his animal - we only get involved as an absolute last resort - and sometimes by then, it might be too late, which usually calls for quick thinking and reflexes - and hopefully we all walk away - intact - to fight another day ! Mark  Mark DeWet Mark DeWet Safaris - Africa E-mail: marksafex@icon.co.za  ... purveyors of traditional African safaris | |||
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As I posted on another thread, I would hunt a Polar Bear with a switch with John Greeff by my side.....I also trust my friend , Peter Chipman, who is the only other PH I have hunted DG with. | |||
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Well, I hunt with Gordon Duncan and while I try to place my rounds properly, I know, without reservation, that Gordon will stop whatever I managed to wound. | |||
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I have 100% confidence in the backup capability of my PH. If I didn't, I'd pick a different PH. I've seen my guy in action and I know that he's very good at what he does -- but, in the real world even the very best may not be good enough in a specific set of circumstances. That's why it's a thrilling pursuit -- it's dangerous. All one can do is pick the very best PH he can find and then give him all of your confidence. The PH and you both need for you to trust him. If you can't, pick another professional or stick to hunting plainsgame. When you get bored with life, start hunting dangerous game with a handgun. | |||
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I trust all myh PHs to not interfere with a kill unless the bubble gets real small..Then I have all the faith in the world in them..I would say most PHs are very capable of handling any situation unless fate takes a hand, and then even the best of the best can fail.. A prime example of that is Johan Calitz, the best PH in Africa IMO, and the best shot I have seen and a man who has survived nemourous charges and close calls almost met his end in Tanzania when he stepped up to the plate to save a client and stepped in a wart hog hole in deep grass, broke his ankle and got off a shot into a charging bull, that bull tossed him several times nearly killed him. What saved him was the last toss sent him up in a tree where his body hung up. His shot in the bull was good and the bull weakened and the client finished off the bull, got Johan to his plane and flew him to Nairobi and UAE where those fine doctors in UAE saved his life..At least that is about what happened as I recall.. I would pick Johan over any PH I know to back me up. Fate, plays a big hand in survival of anykind. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I have 100% confidence in the backup capability of my PH. If I didn't, I'd pick a different PH +1 | |||
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The only impact of trusting or not trusting your PH is whether or not you would accompany them on the follow up. The purpose of information (which is what you will use to base your trust on) is to make future decisions. So let's assume for a moment that you either: a) ask your PH...hey are you a good shot when the chips are down? which it is highly unlikely he is going to respond "No I a suck and I am a coward" more likely he is going to say..."I will keep us safe" or something similar or b) you actually make him take a test...LoL So let's say you now have information that you trust the PH with your life. Once you decide to accompany him on a follow up or if a charge was "instantaneous"...your trust of the PH actually has little or no bearing on the decision you make regarding your actions. If the animal charges or threatens you and you are standing there and have a shot what are you going to do...say to yourself "well, I trust my PH's shooting ability so I will just wait for my PH to shoot cause I trust he is such a great shot." Highly unlikely, you are most likely going to shoot. The bigger question is...how much trust do you have in your PH's judgment if he/she tells you not to shoot. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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IMO,most PHs shoot very little in the course of their job, and when it is needed it is very, very close! I think if you saw them shoot on the same try target you are required to shoot on when arriving in camp with a new to you PH, in many cases you would shoot better groups that the PH. This is because the PH's shooting is only for one reason to back up the client if requested to, or the stop an animal before he hurts, or kills someone, and that shooting is instinctive. Actually what the client does from a bench is nothing more than checking his rifle, not his shooting. When the crap hits the fan is when it counts, and when you find out who can shoot, and who can't. If the client can shoot there is no need for the PH to shoot at all, but when he is required to shoot, most can take care of business. What is on his mind with a new client, if the client can shoot well enough to shoot something off him, without shooting HIM! I would never think of asking a PH to shoot so I can see if he can shoot, but it wouldn't set you mind at ease in some cases if you did! First off every round in his ammo belt may be from a different client's left overs, and every one be of a different brand of ammo. Not very conducive to fine accuracy at any distance, but are acceptable at STOPPING RANGE! I don't think many PHs would get very old if they couldn't shoot in close where their shooting is required. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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I agree with those who prefer self-reliance. But I did have to rely on a PH for a key back up shot one time. We fired simultaneously, and I'm happy to say that he shot straight, and so did I. Funny that we, as clients, don't insist that our DG PHs demonstrate that they can shoot before the hunt. We should give them a turn firing at the same sight-in targets that we use! Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Those that think their PH will save them are suffering from delusions!  ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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There have been plenty of threads started and posts made as to PH backup and a lot of videos posted with debates as to who actually stopped the charge when the going got tough. Why is the assumption made that PH's are gods when it comes to shooting. For every PH in Africa there will be tens if not hundreds of hunters around the world, some who will go to Africa, who can handle a firearm and shoot as accurately or more accurately under stress than many PHs. Obviously there will be hunters that go to Africa, I've seen them visiting and hunting in my own country, who are just not good shots on game and generally bumble their way through with a bit of help from their guide. Most of these are not good under stress either. These are the ones that will make the PH earn their money. Looking at some of the videos that get posted, there are some darn good hunters who go to Africa, our very own Saeed one of the best I've seen, who are quite capable of hunting dangerous game on their own and probably would if allowed. Don't get me wrong, I have high respect for the PH of Africa and the job they have to do with keeping some of the hunters they take out safe, but I don't put them on pedestals above the many other superb hunters and riflemen that visit Africa now, who but for the limitation of the laws of those countries, would be the equivalent of Bell, Hunter, and Taylor and others we saw hunting in the last century. | |||
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Eagle27, Agreed there are some very fine hunters and riflemen who visit Africa but not all of them can repair your broken bones, overhaul a gearbox and prepare a three course gourmet meal during their lunch break. We are plumbers, electricians, administrators, councilors, biologists and politicians. And yes we are also riflemen. Most importantly we are there to guide you and to what extent depends on your own ability. My rifles are sighted in at 25 yards and what happens beyond that is of little concern to me. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Hey Mate, you forgot pouring the poor dumb client his favourite sundowner.  I guess I can manage that myself. We'll have that beer (or 10) on the banks of the Kafue, hopefully not in the too distant future.  | |||
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are you saying that i have to drag you closer than 25 yards to that buff, for me to have you shooting my buff. i thought it was mandatory to have the PH shooting the DG as well thank god it will be lush and green when i get there.cheers peter | |||
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Peter, With the exception of elephant there are very few PH's who back up. If the situation gets out of control then the PH will automatically step in. This is normally to prevent or put down a charge at close quarters. As someone quite rightly stated it is often the hunter himself who gets in the killing shots whilst the PH is busy filling the animal with lead. It will be neither lush or green when you arrive. The Luangwa will probably resemble a broken and stark battlefield. I predict the only green you will see is your bait. Seriously we should have rain by then which will dampen the dust. Cheers Andrew ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Luangwa or Kafue the beer is always frosty. Cheers Andrew ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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dust or not it wont dampen my joy of being under an african sky hunting with you. the days are slowing down at the moment, and i just cant wait to get on the plane. cheers peter | |||
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Never been DG hunting myself, but my theory for relying on my PH will be similar to relying on anyone when I work on a team; hope and pray everyone does what they're supposed to, but be prepared to do all the work yourself. Is it just me or was there a lot of time for the "hunter" to do a follow-up shot and possibly avoid this charge? After the initial shot, the lion stays in practically the same spot biting at himself, I hear the hunter reload ... uh, why not shoot again?! Afraid to hit the telephone pole in the background?! ____________________________ If you died tomorrow, what would you have done today ... 2018 Zimbabwe - Tuskless w/ Nengasha Safaris 2011 Mozambique - Buffalo w/ Mashambanzou Safaris | |||
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You are confused. The videos are mounted on the telephone poles. Gotta have that charge video. Quick follow-up shots could hit the video cameras. And those poles are expensive. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I have complete confidence in my PH's ability back me up even though on a buffalo hunt my PH fired an instant after I did but there was only a loud click. Fortunately, the buffalo was going instead of coming. | |||
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What the hell is the definition of complete confidence? ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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While hunting with John Sharp his comment was that "I won't guarantee the buff not to kill you Gar, but it will have to kill me first." Good enough for me as he his expert shot and totally fearless. Gar | |||
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Enough to follow big black nasties into thick stuff, shoulder to shoulder.  Will J. Parks, III | |||
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It is a great thing that there is a place called Rifa in Zim where Professional Hunter and Guides training/refresher course takes every year. I believe one has a trouble finding a higher level of PH proficency to rely upon. Therefore I guess any PH that came through the Rifa course is as good as it gets...what more could one ask? Besides - once on the ground and in the poo - it doesn't matter how much trust you have in PH anyway. | |||
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 There's a couple saying that come to mind; "always be prepared" or "if it wasn't for bad luck, some people wouldn't have any luck"  | |||
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Hear hear Bryan. I am sure you have seen the video of the Elephant charge in the Conservancy a few years back. No mean shooting . I have been with Gordon on another charge and would also trust him without reservation. | |||
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That guy in the video clip had the gaul to go on reality TV and say he survived a lion charge a year ago I believe. Mike | |||
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I trust them (Guav Johnson,Johnnie Johnson, or Darren Ellerman) enough to put my life in their hands, if needed. Trick is to see that it's not needed - and that's my responsibility.6 buffalo and 3 elephants later, I've had some excitement, but have been lucky enough so far that nothing got out of hand. I may even be as good a shot as some PHs, but it's not the shooting skill that's the real challenge - it's overcoming the pucker factor and shooting well into the face of a life threatening event. I've not had to do that, and they all have, repeatedly. Yup, I trust 'em or I'd get another PH. | |||
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Yes, with the likes of Jonnie Johnson by your side I can understand your trust in him. But during a follow up or similar,he will be the first to tell you you had better be ready. | |||
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Marius saved my bacon once and I have no doubt he'll do it again whenever the client screws up. I really want to go back to Moz . . . Sarge Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle . . . for one hundred years! | |||
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110%.....but I trust my ability to shoot also..... Gary DRSS NRA Lifer SCI DSC | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting When DG Hunting How Much Trust Do You Have In Your PH's Backup Shooting
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